Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners

Richard/John47 thanks for making me curious about the damping trough again.

Arrived the in mail one kit from Bruce.

This kit reminds me of my flu shot ?

I don’t like needles and syringes.

But it went on real smooth

I think Frogman still has his paddle lifted not touching ?

I think SLAW is however still liquified ?

Added 1 CC per Bruce’ instructions – paddle just touching.
Its been over 8 years for me in using one. Will report back later ... so far pretty good !

Cheers

Do you know what PSI and Pump type your ET2 or ET2.5 was designed for ?

3.6 PSI - Original Takatsuki and ET-2 or 2.5

5.0- 7 PSI - WISA 300 air pump and ET-2 or 2.5 with high pressure manifolds

>10 PSI - users with shop compressors and ET-2 or 2.5 high pressure manifolds

Note, if the pressure readings are higher than those listed above, the manifold could be clogged, if the pressure readings are lower, this suggests that the pump may not be performing correctly.

(Taken from Bruce's website)

What other thread allows us to learn about fine wine from downunder and good English ?

Well I did enjoy that youtube video Dover. Not surprising that not much has changed with the actual record since 1958 when the film was made. I could say they don’t make records as good anymore....anyone disagree?
In 1958 - I was just a thought in my parents eyes till four years later. Does anyone listen to music in a shirt and tie anymore?

At the 4:40 mark is an excellent example imo of a speaker setup. Nearfield and eliminating room problems by taking the room out of the picture. I love those speakers spikes. We can learn lots from these films.

The fellow talking reminds me of my Grade 8 science teacher. The guy in the film does show a bit of a smile at the end however. My science teacher in middle school was a German fellow that never smiled.

RK - Further I now consider an oil trough to be manditory for this rig.

After some tweaking I am getting excellent results with the damping trough. When I used it years ago I was obviously slugging the paddle through too much oil ! I am only using 1 CC per Bruce’ instructions.

Bruce is clear in the damping trough documentation that the damping trough should NOT BE USED until one becomes familiar with the operation of the ET2 and ET 2.5 without the use of one first. The added benefit I find is the visual confirmation of levelness in the trough. , as the oil in the trough is obviously affected by gravity.

Richard - I don’t like words like mandatory and absolute in this hobby. What we are creating is make believe really? This is why I like to use words like Winnie the Pooh and Goldilocks in my system page :^)

Richardkrebs - Has anyone else thought that this hobby of ours is an addiction?

A strange phenomena in my household. Family members seem to think that addictions can be treated; It forced me to use a different tact. I now use the word disease instead in our house. For some reason I can’t explain, it is more effective

Ha-ha-he man – please tell me my last post brought a couple ha-ha’s to you?

FWIW – the first time I saw that I almost soiled myself. I actually printed it off and put it on our fridge. I think it helped me to bring in one amp and one speaker. (grin)

Fyi –

Here is my ET2 and ET2.5 tuning information for various compliance cartridges from the last year. From a compliance high of 50 down to 10. And VTF’s of .8 gms to 2.1gms.

ET2 and ET2.5 Cartridge Setups

Richard – fwiw - I am getting excellent early results in my room with my low compliance XV1 and triple leaf spring. 2 fat and 2 skinny weights setup according to Dorothy. :^)

If you are the least bit curious I highly recommend you listen to your setup with a decoupled I-Beam – using a triple leaf spring and just the inert lead weights.
You could try this with and without your now famous lead spindle slug?

Two I Beams and 5 loose leaf springs to make up a double and triple leaf spring can be purchased from Bruce for a very nominal amount of money. Otherwise enjoy the tunes.

Cheers

Richard - I find the word multi-spring can be misleading.

We are actually joining (glueing) single leaf springs to make one thicker one.

Think of a truck with a leaf spring in the back.
leaf spring suspension

I see this as similar physics except we are working in a horizontal fashion not a vertical one.

The suspension becomes more compliant if we remove leaf springs from that truck. More firm if we add springs. As we add springs we need to add weight to the truck otherwise it becomes bouncy on the road. The ET2 is the same. As we add a leaf spring or two we need to increase VTF if using the same cartridge. We also need to keep the inert lead weights at the end of the I Beam for resonance control – away from the air bearing.

MOST ET2 users go wrong with the lead weights - imo - because they are coming from developed habits with a pivot arm. What do you do to increase VTF with a pivot arm? You bring the weight in more toward the bearing. The ET2 is a unique tonearm unlike any other with a decoupled counterweight. The weight needs to stay at the end away from the air bearing to not impede it and for resonance control – away from the air bearing. So we just add a weight and keep it at the end.

My direct experience – adding a leaf spring (glueing two together) to the ET2 or Et2.5 means it can carry a higher load (heavier less compliance cartridge) better. The result in sound with heavy MC is amazing. Bass is further tuned to your room by turning the counterweight cap downward or upward. This will depend on your actual room and how good your bass compression is with the speakers you are using.

Thanks again to Frogman for bringing the double and triple leaf spring to the discussion here. Bruce has been shipping loose leaf springs out with his tonearms for years. His customers probably look at them and think - wth is this for - maybe a spare ?

Richard, its even more serious when you hold each in your hand. They were definitely designed for two different cartridges. The mag looks like it has been lifting weights and has been on steroids all its life.

I will put it on soon and provide an update. Guess I am being a little cautious :^)

I think Ketchup still owns both armtube versions but his are on two different TT’s? Maybe if he sees this he can chime in on his experiences. Or maybe one of the other thread readers can provide input?

Cheers

Slaw – good to hear from you again.

You are the only music lover I am personally aware of that has the capability and makes his own custom listening chair!

Thanks for sharing the pics of your setup Richard. An obvious amount of time and passion went into your setup. Interesting the side the oil trough is on.

I have thought a couple of times of removing the back end of the ET2 that holds the railing and handle to raise and lower the ET2. My Dynavector DV505 is without a lift and I hate it; but it also at the back which makes it awkward. I like having my ET2 arm lift especially into those late listening sessions. Putting the cartridge down is not the problem – its lifting it at the end – knobby fingers and a 10 year habit with the luxury of that elegant lever – I am not taking a chance on an expensive cartridge.

I believe Dover posted that he inserted some material in the handle to decouple it more.

Slaw - there are enough variations in the degree of trueness that leaves me extremely conscious of the importance of the ability to machine as true as possible.

Richardkrebs - Getting accurate alignment when two components are brought together from different manufacturers, without the ability to adjust, would be pure luck.

Slaw, RK, others...

From my experience with 7 or 8 TT’s it is very difficult imo for a TT manufacturer (without naming brands) at certain cost points to reach a certain degree of trueness between the tonearm platform and the platter (all the way around it). What I have personally learned, when you come upon a serious manufactured TT design; a different standard/level of trueness is found among other good things. Just an observation.

But then no two records are true....the source media.... and records provide a medium to reveal amazing things..... as long as the stylus is placed as correctly as possible in the groove.

So how correct is correct ? What does correct mean. Some food for thought.....

************************************************************
From 25 years ago. Not much has changed.....
“The angle that the cutterhead is placed at when a record is cut results in an included angle in the final disc. This included angle must be duplicated with the reproducing stylus or distortion will result. The problem today lies in standardization of the angle by record manufacturers and corresponding standardization by cartridge manufacturers. Presently most records are cut with resulting vertical angles between 16 and 20 degrees. The average vertical angles of cartridges manufactured today is slightly higher than 22 degrees. The result of this mismatch is less than optimum performance for many cartridges.
Although the vertical energy contained in a record represents approximately 40% of the total energy on the record (60% lateral). The distortion levels we are dealing with are quite high. In some cases, the vertical performance with certain types of distortion can be improved from 2.5% to 1% or less.”
Taken from Page 51 ET2 manual
************************************************************

Hi Bruce - a question from your past testing if you have the answer.

Did you find any relation between the included angle of vinyl records and their thickness.

Example -
Is it possible to assume that that you can have two same thickness records with different included angles?

Thanks Chris


Chris,

The standard was supposed to be 20 degrees, when you talk to people who cut records, they do not check, so it turns out to be random, close to 20 degrees, but not exact. Yes, two records of the same thickness could require different VTA settings. I hope this helps.

brucet

************************************************************

This tells me if we are going to be anal about level trueness we need to be anal about VTA because the records are cut with random included angles!

Different records even if they are the same thickness, can have different included angles. This explains to me why same thickness records sound different (bass compression / HF’s ) with the same cartridge sometimes in my room. We really do need to trust our own ears with our own cartridges and not assume a certain degree of setup for cartridge X with all our records.

So ?

For me it is very good and desirable to therefore have a high degree of level trueness (tonearm platform and platter) but it is only half the battle.

I have discovered the other half of the battle is the ability of the tonearm to adjust so that the stylus can be placed at different VTA angles in the black disc – conveniently. Meaning as the records is playing as I am listening !

Vinyl is a total mechanical process and I don’t want to stop my listening routine to adjust more parameters.

So to me having with the ET2 unlike any other tonearm I have ever personally owned .........VTA on the fly that works (meaning it does not change cartridge VTF and overhang) while the records is spinning is very important.

In the past I considered removing the ET2 VTA mechanism (I thought to make it more rigid/less resonant in effect). You see for me personally I don’t change VTA for every record. I am not that anal. But there are some records that are off compared to the other mediums digital and tape and it is noticeable in my room. I would not be without VTA on the fly with my tonearm.

Slaw – I think we are thinking the same thing in your last post ....

RichardKrebs - Yes lifting off at record end is an interesting exercise

Richard

moving speakers an inch and listening to the differences is interesting.

Changing out footers and listening to the differences can be interesting.

Trying some NZ Pinot Gris sounds really interesting !

Taking out an expensive cartridge... not interesting. :(

Which end for the trough? The one with the least amount of joins and material changes before we get to the cartridge. In my most humble opinion :-)

Great idea!

Slaw- from my experience if another adjustment is needed for overhang, something is off in the setup. To break down the set up we have 3 sections.

1) Sub-base plate – the one with the 3 leveling spikes and the one bolt holding the arm. Holds all the goods.

2) Mounting base and post. (includes the VTA arc block) – holds manifold, spindle, armtube, counterweight. Mounting post needs to be level and true with platter level for VTA to work properly.

3)The actual manifold housing, air bearing spindle, along with the armtube and counterweight.

If the ET2 is setup properly, the mounting base post should be level and true with your platter. The mounting base post is after all what holds the VTA gearing that raises and lowers the ET2. The platter is what the stylus overhang reference gauge rests on. The two are a marriage.

Check level on both. How true they are to each other will determine imo how true your overhang is when you raise and lower the VTA.

Richardkrebs - Here is a conundrum. Stylus drag is significant, being able to slow some TT platters.

What about the other side of the coin?
What about a TT platter system that doesn’t slow down with stylus drag, but can’t slow down fast enough after a real tough vinyl passage?

That can sound interesting? Some really like this sound. :^)

Dover – thanks for the wine recommendations. Dorothy happens to be a whiskey girl. Hardcore all the way just like the ET2. No pussy footing around here.

Her personality is also just like Bruce’s for those that have had the pleasure of talking or emailing with him. All business. If Bruce wasn’t into flying I bet he could come up with a hell of a race car :^)

When any wine is being served I accept it - as it is Gods drink. Well that’s the excuse to my wife. If I have to buy it myself I am more a red wine guy. Prefer wine I can’t see through. So it is Pinot Noir over Gris for me if I had a choice. White wine tends to taste like grape juice to me for some reason and goes down same. Car keys please....

As it is summer here now I enjoy Sleeman Cream Ale while listening to bull frogs and authentic Canadian Loons that have come home.

John47 - We assume, I suppose, on this thread, that BT can solve all problems, but he has fingers in other pies.

No not really John - check the original post for this thread.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1325551242&&&/Eminent-Technology-ET-2-Tonearm-Owners

Its asking for ways (as a team)to improve the tonearm.

My personal definition of a great design is one that can be tweaked and made better without changing the basic design.

With that I have tremendous respect for people that think outside of the box and don’t follow the herd. Are willing to take some chances.

In this audio hobby with my personal experiences I could name maybe 4 or 5 individuals including BT. I believe we all have this list of people from our own experiences?

Cheers

I recently received my magnesium armtube from Bruce.
Here is a picture that shows some big differences between the magnesium versus aluminum armtubes

What is not so obvious in the pictures is how much beefier the head shell is on the mag tube.

Cheers

Richard

It sounds better with the copper platter but I fear I will screw up the servo on it due to the weight.

I made that comment in regards to my SP10MKII - any comments / advice with your and others MKII experience ?

Thanks Chris

Slaw - I assume you've seen the 3D printed VPI arms... any thoughts?

Slaw I have owned the JMW 12 in the past. Here is a pic of my past JMW 12 with a pic from the web of the new VPI 3d tonearm.

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1372035211.jpg

Other than materials they still look really similar to me? The wire placement doesn’t seem to have changed. It was used for antiskate as it would push back. The newer VPI arms have additional antiskate on the new arm. Not sure how this tonearm can be one piece?

what does the point in the cup rest on? I would think some stainless is needed on the inside of the female part.

Thanks Henry – its the words turn and bore that are intriguing to me.
Richard - I would like to see a video of this whole process.
I have seen many videos of how records are made and have been to one record plant many years ago.
The old record making videos always show a bunch of ladies at the end of the process just prior to inserting them into sleeves; They could all pass for your Aunt (fill in the name). They represent quality control as they eyeball the records. :^)

Thanks for the info Richard.

I have watched my Brass Armpod being cut from this

Blurry picture – it was moving I had to make sure I wasn’t hit as it swung over to the cutting table.

I also watched my SS Legs that are bolted into my previous version SP10 setup being made. The current version has threads at both ends.

This magnesium armtube is a very different beast. :^)

Cheers

I hope everyone is enjoying summer.
At least those on this side of the equator.
I am enjoying my summer

I have an extra aluminum arm wand if anyone needs one.

It can be used as is or you can have Bruce convert it to Carbon Fibre.

If anyone is interested contact me by pm. Its available with
stock wiring or without.

Cheers

John I have owned 3 regas........all digital

Planet, planet2000, my current Saturn of 8 or so years ?, is one of my current digital players.
It sits on 3 symposium rollerblocks

Rega was one of the last companies to enter the digital world.

So I guess I like the company but I have no experience or knowledge of their analog items.

The RP8?

how do you put an ET2 on that ? :^)

what you heard was meaningless, unless the system was described at the time of testing

John - I list out my gear as well as pictures of the room. I am very interested in seeing what some of the rooms look like downunder. I don’t even need to see the gear. Rooms and speaker (type) placement tell a good story that I find fascinating.

re: science and concrete evidence.

fact - there is no perfect room.

fact - no one has perfect ears.

fact - this means if all our gear was the same our speaker placement would all differ - the room rules.

its the elephant in the room.

cheers

I hope no ones counterweight cap looks like the one in this link? This is a easy replacement for a new one - $50 or so.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Air-Bearing-Tonearm-Eminent-Technology-Model-two-/330963316997?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123

Not affiliated with this ad.

A good test to see if your ET2, ET 2.5 is set up to play the inside of a record properly.

I mentioned this album earlier.

Dire Straits – self titled 1978
Side Two - finish of the Lions

Not much plastic left at the end of Lions before the label!

Cheers

Dover

Point taken - for some reason these comments from DG

08-18-13:
I've tried it with as little as 35gm horizontal mass and as much as 100gm-- approximating the range of horizontal effective mass from ET to Kuzma airline. So far less horizontal mass sounds better in all instances. This does not hold true for vertical mass.

Represented results and reference points to me and assumptions got made. This triggered a need in me to summarize some of the discussions that have been held here on this thread between the two tonearms. This is an unfortunate habit (summarizing) from my work career and the comments were not related to DG’s comments.

imo - it is not valid comparing the ET2, 2.5 and Kuzma Airline in this manner

bad wording on my part.

I certainly hope DG took no offence. I blame the summer heat.

Thanks for letting me ramble on and get off with only a warning – this time.

Another interesting ET2 ad came in as a saved search while I had my coffee this morning.
Don't see these too often? Just sharing - No affiliation - fyi only.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/WISA-AIR-PUMP-FOR-AIR-BEARING-TONEARMS-ET2-TESTED-WORKS-GREAT-CLEAN-/360755491531?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123

One of the things that bug me alot are disposable products. It seems most things we buy just gets tossed out these days due to cost to fix over buying new from "country" fill in the blank.

You gotta love how this analog hobby recycles.....

Cheers

Hi Richard - are you up and running with the new pump yet?

Cheers

Hi Dgarretson – Does the wiring on the Terminator play a role in damping (stabilizing) the stylus ?
cheers

Thigpens' recommendations are that with records with an eccentricity of 1/8" a low mass pivoted arm will be superior.

Dover this has been mentioned many times here and is documented in the ET2 manual. What I am curious about however is that at the time of printing of the original ET2 manual MM’s were in their heyday. MC’s became more popular later and BT adjusted with the 2.5. I am wondering if he was printing an update to his manual, if a heavier mass pivot over a lower mass one would be recommended for MC specifically. Any opinion ?

Fwiw

From my record collection there are idk maybe 150 -200 put aside – they can be seen on the ground in the pic of my listening room. These I listen to on a regular basis.
From this group there is only one record I am aware of that falls in that range of 1/8 inch. This record happens to be one of my wife’s favorites and I use it to ....entice her into the room :^)

My solution to this oddball record was to drill out the hole and spend 30 seconds centering it with my DIY center weight seen here.

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1366423048.jpg

The pressure points are on the outside and there is a washer underneath. Actually various size washers can be used as needed. Mostly however my records are in good shape warp and off center hole wise (meaning not visually noticeable).

Cheers

Dgarretson - If not carefully dressed between the gantry and the wand, the tonearm wires have the greater potential to do harm by fouling the wand's free movement.

DG - I will make sure the petition of names to the cartridge makers for a wireless cartridge makes it to your house too :^)

Thanks for the info

Hi Tim
Congrats on the ET2.
Please let us know how you make out.
A number of folks here with many years experience with the ET2 & ET2.5 to help out if any questions.

There are also measurements on page 63 of the online manual on Bruce' website. from looking at the online diagram for the mounting hole.

1) From the middle of the spindle go out 8.258 inches (209.753) millimeters anywhere on the plinth that works for you and mark the spot.

2) Draw a straight line from the middle of spindle to this marked spot.

3) Go up 90 degrees from this line .885 inches (22.479 millimeters)

Mark the spot - that's where the mounting hole goes.

Welcome to the thread.
Cheers Chris

Random Included Record Angles When they Make Records

You play a couple of records from your collection that are the same thickness. They sound different for some reason ? One might be brighter, the other a little warmer and full ?
This was not something I took much notice of many years ago with a very basic TT and tonearm. But as the TT and tonearm got better it became more noticeable.

We hear about how engineers in creating the master disc put their spin on how the records will sound. But how about the physics part of it. In addition to the final engineering differences record masters are cut with random included angles by the cutter. The angle of the cut when the record master is made.

http://www.aardvarkmastering.com/riaa.htm

from the site

Recording Groove Contour
a. Included angle 90 degrees + 5
b. Bottom radius 0.00025" max.
c. Width--Monophonic .0022"--.0032"
d. Width--Stereophonic, Instantaneous .001" min.
Minimum Inside Diameter of Recording 4 1/4"
Runout of Recording Grooves Relative to Center Hole .050" max.

Notice the record included cut angle standard that was set can be 90 degrees give or take 5 degrees....:^(

So there is no standard.

This is also captured in the ET2 manual and has been mentioned before. Bruce realized the importance of this and the reason he built into his arm VTA on the Fly that does not change parameters when used.

Vertical Tracking Angle Adjustment (VTA) - Page 51 ET2 Pt. 2 manual

"Several articles have appeared which address the area of cartridge performance. Vertical Tracking Angle (VTA) and Stylus Rake Angle (SRA). We have designed the Model 2 tonearm to optimize the vertical tracking angle of the cartridge.
The angle that the cutterhead is placed at when a record is cut results in an included angle in the final disc. This included angle must be duplicated with the reproducing stylus or distortion will result. The problem today lies in standardization of the angle by record manufacturers and corresponding standardization by cartridge manufacturers. Presently most records are cut with resulting vertical angles between 16 and 20 degrees. The average vertical angles of cartridges manufactured today is slightly higher than 22 degrees. The result of this mismatch is less than optimum performance for many cartridges."

Maybe those that use scopes should be pointing the camera - down - to the groove to try to figure out what angle has been used ?

Some ET2 owners I have talked to have locked down (tightened the screws controlling the VTA feature) to make it more rigid?

fwiw - I have sent an email to a couple record pressing plants as I am curious what determines what angle they cut at.
Is it based on temperature, record thickness, condition of stylus cutter ? Will post back what they say ...if they respond.

How important is the VTA adjustment to you ?

Dover

The "included angle" has nothing to do with VTA

Cutterhead angles are a minefield as they varied historically over the years and different cutting lathes were set up with different cutting angles. There was a standardisation of sorts in the 60's but bear in mind the US settled on 15 degrees +-5 degrees and the Europeans settled on 20 degrees +-5 degrees.
The actual cutting angle used would also depend on how the engineer sets the equipment up and that is unpredictable. Springback is a common problem when cutting and this will alter depending on the composition and quality of the lacquers used ( they are soft ).

Temperature is a big factor and if the lacquers have been stored at room temperature, as opposed to the recommended cool room temperatures, then often engineers would alter the cutting angle to get a clean cut due to the changing properties of the lacquers at different temperatures.

first statement is true on its own.

but in the data that you provided especially the last sentence - "engineers would alter the cutting angle to get a clean cut due to the changing properties of the lacquers at different temperatures"

With the ET2 VTA system angle changes can be corrected without affecting VTF and alignment - see previous post. this is also documented in the manual. This is what I was referring to.

Dover when you say

Increasing the room temperature by 5 degrees F or approx 3 degrees C will lower the tracking angle by approx 1 degree.

Lets say we have a situation where the room is left alone to go up in temperature. So the sound will become more warm and full bodied - less treble brightness - as you have lowered the tracking angle ?

Is this because of warmer plastic (record) ?

Can this explain why the music can sweeter (warmer) toward the end of a session?

Dover - in the winter the OTL's are enough to keep my room at the temp it started at - heating vents closed. The last couple summer months with the door/windows closed in my basement room the temp will go up 1 degree every hour. The OTL's are like two 50 inch plasma tv's as far as heat out put goes. With the door or window open this drops by half - 1 degree every two hours.

Hi Tim

This is a very big change

A comment with a certain amount of suspense attached to it. :^)

Please do share impressions with us once you have had enough listening time.

Cheers

FYI only -
Appears to be a real clean base ET2 with an original setup jig and what appears to be a Mag armtube too.
Not affiliated with the ad.
fyi only

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190918010891&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123

Cheers

10-02-13: Manitunc
Yeah, I picked it up. Didn't realize the carbon arm, but I really wanted the jig. This is my third.

Manitunc - am I understanding you - 3 ET2's now ?

Holy Moly

May I suggest this pump for you.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Timeter-ARIDYNE-2000-Air-Compressor-System-/121186778121?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123

When setup with a three way system it would allow simultaneous playing of three 3 ET2's .... at the same time.

Have fun....if I have misunderstood just ignore.

You can put a Mag wand on an ET2 or a ET2.5.
The gooseneck - the joint part that connects the wand to the spindle is the same design for both allowing for this to happen.

One of the dark secrets - imo - for ET2, ET2.5 owners is why Bruce never bothered to put a ET 2.5 label on the ET 2.5 manifolds. They all say 2.0.

It makes it very confusing because when looking at pictures themselves, the part you see - the spindle - it is impossible to tell. Its like an illusion.
But when comparing the ET 2.0 and ET 2.5 in person it is very obvious.
The ET 2.5 is bigger in diameter.
The actual diameter measurements are published here "somewhere" . 5/8 inch rings a bell but not sure.

or does the spindle look like this ?

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1366417696.jpg

Manitunc - Please compare with your others and let us know.
You may have an ET 2.5 on your hands.

Cheers

You now have ET2 triplets Manitunc - impressive.

to my knowledge other than the different larger 2.5 spindle
all other changes are "under the hood" in support of it.
The I beam/leaf spring and lead weights;
and the different armwands are interchangeable between 2.0 and 2.5

"All my spindles are the same size"

maybe they are all 2.5's manitunc? :^)

my ET 2.0 spindle appears to be about 5/8 inch. The 2.5 is about 3/4 inch.

Here is a picture of the inside that ketchup was nice enough to post earlier on.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj177/picswamp/20121124_150329s_zps44708d12.jpg

If you push yours out you can see the condition of it and determine if it needs cleaning. Bruce used to put the initials HP on 2.0 and 2.5 manifolds to indicate high pressure versions.

This ad showed up in my inbox this morn. Apparently NOS Wisa's but note the 220v. I never used a WISA myself so can't confirm the pressure they deliver at the arm itself.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WISA-air-pump-for-Eminent-Technology-Tonearm-NOS-nice-upgrade-air-bearing-220v-/271295538394?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1120&autorefresh=true

Just sharing - no affiliation with ad.

I don't even see a shipping price as this appears to be a US sale only.
I know a couple people looking on this side of the 49 parallel but they cant buy it.
I don't blame the seller - he's probably dealth with irate Canucks as US/Cdn customs are a huge - PITA. sorry just venting a bit.

As a seller I would have at least made sure the presentation is good.
if this was a car ad two of the four tires are not even touching the road in the first ad.
That ET2 will never get past the first groove if left in that condition - for those considering one.

Cool..thanks for sharing Manitunc.

If appears you've struck an ET 2.0 2.5 motherlode Manitunc.

Big honkin air chamber. 6" pvc about 2.5' long

An indicator to me that someone understood how important air delivery was and was careful with his stuff.

thats the type of surge tank - PVC - different dimensions that I used with my Medo pump before my current one.

Look inside the pipe - maybe there is a surprise :^)
But its probably sealed with silicone.

Would have liked to have seen the look on your face when u opened up the package.

Did you get multiple I beams or a set of loose leaf springs in any of the containers?
With multiple cartridges on different ET2's and a ET 2.5, I would be setting up some single, double, and triple leaf spring I Beams ready to go - to dial the cartridges into your room.

What a great hobby? Congratulations

"imo its never OCD when you are actually changing the laws of physics"

this comment came across wrong and was not what I meant. I take it back since this particular thread does not allow one to edit. the rest of the post stands :^)

If you want to get at beyond - lets say for example 7/10 with the performance of your ET2, you need to understand how the I Beam tuning can work for you...

fwiw - looking back now when this thread started, I can say I was at 6.5 - 7 with my ET2, ET 2.5 setup. This is a personal subjective number. I feel now I am around 7.5. thanks to everyone on this thread. Much to learn.

As we all know there are two parts to optimization of the ET 2.0, 2.5.

1) Arm setup
2) Air delivery

When the thread started I ranked the importance of the two as far as sonic upgrades went
1) 40%, 2) 60% based on my private experience.

With the help of this thread I can say the percentages for me are now 1) 45%, 2) 55%.

The gap is closing. As I learn more I hope to make them equal.

Cheers

Hi Dave

After converting the TNT to thread drive and eliminating the tri-pulley system, I made a 2 spring I-beam and moved the weight way out on the I-beam (past 6). All three of these tweaks made a significant improvement in sound quality and it was all free!

You gotta love that. For me improving sound for nothing is the best "lasting" feeling in this hobby. Its a special feeling imo when you discover something on your own. I guess because I want to know why it works. It needs to be repeatable and when reversed, should bring things back to where you were.

I was wondering if anyone has experience with even higher pressures with the stock 2.0 manifold? I think 12psi is probably pushing it, so thought I would ask here before going higher.

When you refer to PSI are you referring to the PSI at the pump itself or at the ET2 arm ?

Reason I ask - the MEDO AC0110 pumps that I have owned in the past all lose some psi along the way. They deliver 12 at the pump itself pump but about 7-8 PSI at the actual arm.

From my reading of this thread, it seems that most of you have reached a pressure “threshold” where the sound quality starts to fall off. What exactly do you hear when this happens?

01-19-12: Apbiii
...My arm is a very early version, so certainly not optimized for higher pressure, and I can feel the air escaping at 19 psi but I can't hear it yet. I have not tried to determine if it introduces significant horizontal force. As I stated in my post I could hear some of the life or vibrancy go out of the music when I increased the pressure...

"Some of the life or vibrancy go out of the music"

imo these are very good and effective words by Archie of what happens - "life and vibrancy" I wonder if he is still around ?

Someone asked me about this on my system blog. This was part of my response.

"So to answer your question based on my experience. If too much air is put through and starts affecting the spindle the actual spindle will start resonating. The detail in the music will start blurring. Its kind of like when your stylus gets a little dirt on it if you are lazy to clean it. I take notice of it from familiar recordings - something is amiss or off and you clean the stylus. Likewise sonically the music sounds thinner, leaner with less information. imo - this is how you will know what pressure psi your system can handle based on your own system / room."

So I think we are all saying similar things as to what we hear.

Now here is something to think about.

IMO outside of our own room/gear tuning, the "PSI threshold" itself for each of our systems is determined as a result of two separate things but both need each other to work.

The pump delivery system itself and the ET2, 2.5 spindle starting to vibrate/resonate.

Both the pump system and the ET2 and ET2.5 can be at varying stages of setup and condition with each of us. Consider someone using a 20 year old ET2 that has never been cleaned out or has leaking air around it; over a newer one, maybe a new Et 2.5 that Bruce just delivered to someone. The beauty here is that the older one is easily cleaned and air leaks tightened and brought up to spec again.

The pumps are the real moving targets here as we all use different pump setups.

I am willing to bet 100 Canadian dollars if you asked Bruce in the last 20 years of the ET2, ET2.5; if there was one thing he could change he would say something about having more control over the pump systems that people have used.

We can help to assess how much the PUMP is contributing to the PSI threshold with the PUMP test.

Have you tried the Pump Test yet Dave ?

This requires the help of a friend.

*****************************************************
Turn your system on and place it on mute at lowest volume.
With your ET2 setup properly (level and balanced) and NO air on - lower the stylus onto a lead in groove.
Again with NO Air on - unmute the system and start raising the volume.
Keep going till you reach the level on your dials that represents high volume in your room.
Your room has now become a listening chamber for your system and gear and more importantly - NO PUMP.
Its isolated and not a factor yet.
If all is well to this point,
with the stylus acting like a stethoscope in that groove, go up to one of your speakers and wait there.
Tell your friend to go turn your pump on while you keep your ear up close to the speaker.
*****************************************************
What do you hear when your friend turns the pump on ?
Have your friend turn it off and on again.

If you are hearing any noise at all, the pumps air delivery is not optimized and is sending nasties to your ET2.
The noise is putting a layer in the music.
This is also affecting the PSI you can run with your ET2.
It is my opinion that improving the air delivery should allow you to reach the best PSI threshold for your room/gear with the high pressure manifold ET2 or ET2.5 and gain benefits.

I am not a scientist. I am hobbyist, I trust my ears and I base this on my personal experience.

Very Important
For anyone reading that is a new ET2 user do not attempt the above test until you are familiar with the ET2, it is setup properly, level and balanced.

A while back I went on a mission for a few years with pumps. I ended up with the Aridyne timeter medical pump that is used for patient respiration. You flick a switch to turn on and off. It dumps moisture at the pump just like a cars AC system. These are purchased on ebay cheaply but required being picked up. They do require a separate room as they are around 60 db as far as how loud they are when you stand next to them.

I have come to terms with idiosyncrasies of the VPI air bladders, but I sure would like to find some of those feet. Would be interested in hearing Ct0517's impressions of the TNT with and without the AT616s.

Regarding the TNT

As with noise above being the resonance vibration hobby it is - I have always found consistent results whenever we are able to remove "noise or structure feedback" from entering our system/gear. The result being more music comes through for us. We have all experienced this sensation and it generates the same kind of comments on the forums -

"I did not realize the "noise" was there until it was removed"

The TNT and thread - congratulations for implementing this! this was a biggie for me. A sort of analog revelation.

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1366420145.jpg

If you read my system blog thread, the thread controlled with the SDS controller, truly elevated the performance of the TNT.

Air bladders like the VPI legs work but keeping them inflated and level can be a PITA and as we know out of level is disaster for an air bearing tonearm. I found the Pneumatic AT616 footers insulate and decouple really well, but where they supersede others is that they have a smooth and excellent leveling system - and once set - don't go out of level. The Verdier also has a pneumatic suspension.

Welcome to the thread Dave.
Very nice setup btw. I wish everyone here could post virtual systems.
sorry for the long post and any errors.
Cheers Chris

Any suggestions on how to reduce/eliminate this (may be solved with the HP manifold)?

Dave - just so we understand.
so no noise in your system with NO pump on - stylus in groove - and the preamp volume high.
this is with a stock ET2 which is designed to work at about 3 psi.
When you turn the pump on there is no noise in your midrange driver up to 3.5 psi,
So we can assume the ET2 with your pump works well to 3.5 as designed ?
In fact it is quiet to just under 5 psi. So all is good.

but at 5 psi you start to hear what sounds like air (like tube rush) in your midrange driver.
It is not a mechanical piston type noise, or drone like noise - it is the sound of air - maybe like air escaping ?
It gets louder to 7 psi and then stays the same to 17 psi.
I would think if it was mechanical / piston problem it would maybe be heard at the lower pressure too. Maybe the hydraulic guys? can chime in - Richard ?

try something - with your system on mute and the ET2 raised and at rest.
crank the PSI up all the way to 21 and put your ear right next to the ET2 manifold- do u hear any sounds like a balloon with a leak ?
If yes is there air coming from a bolt ?
Try wiggling the tube at the input nozzle around. It would be shame if a great pump system and that connection at the plug is not tight.
If there is a leak at the plug - pull the plastic out - cut an inch off so the plastic is tight and fresh - re-insert. Is there significant air coming from the manifold where the spindle enters and exits? You will feel the air coming out with your finger near both ends.

With the info you provided it sounds to me like the HP manifold would fix this as its lungs are designed to inhale the higher PSI.

Frogman uses the 0910 and says that it does a great job with this HP 2.0 bearing at 17psi.

Frogman provides clear support for the HP ET2 model with the same pump.

It is very easy to spend other peoples money :^)

Since you are hearing benefits of the higher pressure - but you have a stock ET2 it makes sense to me to do it, if you feel its worth it? Bruce charges a reasonable amount for both upgrades ? Making the ET2 HP or by using his magic to transform the ET 2.0 into the 2.5 HP. As you said this would take a few weeks.

Some input from the others?

I recently called VPI about the leakage issue and they sent me some modified round rubber bushings to place around the outside of the schrader valve so that it seals the metal cap to the corner pods. Seems to be working great so far.

What a great service company. I bet they didn't charge you for those either, and if they did a very nominal charge.

I saw a set on "that auction site" for 400 bills. They show some deformation on the top. For that price, I would want an audible improvement over the air bladders in addition to eliminating the aggravation of maintaining level. Any opinion on that?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Audio-Technica-AT616-Pneumatic-Suspension-Audio-Insulator-4-pcs-/321244326789

Probably 500 by the time they get to you.
I don't know what to say - everything in this crazy hobby just keeps going up in price.
What you see in the picture may be marks only and not an actual indent.
The seller can verify this.
Sounds like your VPI fix is working so I would hold off. I'd put money into the manifold ?

Chris