@ct0517
Elkin, NC is only about 4 hours from me. I know you have discussed this before but I'm too lazy to look for the post. How quiet/noisy is this pump?
I'm still amazed at how such small increments on the I Beam make such a significant difference.
Harry
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Chris,
Thanks for all the info. I'm afraid it would be too noisy for my setup. All my equipment is in a closet at the front of my room but I'd still be only about 15 to 18 ft away. I don't have the luxury of a basement to isolate the noise.
Harry
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Chris,
Glad to hear we don't have a northern wall. Don't forget you are exempt from the steel & aluminum tariff.
Could be worse, my new Garrard 301 plinth has been "preparing for shipping" from Austria for 5 days. I guess they can't find a plane coming this way.
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OK, a little off topic but I must give a shout out to the U.S. Van den Hul rep. Disclaimer first. I have no affiliation with A.J. Van den Hul or his U.S. rep., Finest Fidelity.
As those of you who follow my ramblings know, a while back I purchased a VDH Black Beauty special X. Well, in one of my OC tweaking moods I over torqued the bolts holding the cartridge to my ET arm wand and cracked the upper plate on the cartridge. I contacted Randy at Finest Fidelity who is the rather new U.S. VDH distributor.
This is a cartridge I purchased "as new" on U.S. Audio Mart from a gentleman in Washington who, for reasons I won't bore you with, I trusted implicitly. Randy could have said, sorry, I can't help because you bought it second hand and not from a VDH dealer. He didn't. Instead, he immediately (same day) contacted A.J. and said, yes it could be repaired; send it on to him.
Well, to make a short story long, a month later my Black Beauty was returned to me, I set it up and the right channel had a terrible hum. I again contacted Randy who said send it back. I did so and it made another round trip to the Netherlands (this time free of charge) and , today, I received it back. It is just as glorious as it was the first time around.
Incredible customer service like this is hard to find from a dealer, much less a distributor.
If you need help with your VDH product, I highly recommend Finest Fidelity.
P.S. This cartridge just loves the ET with original aluminum arm wand. |
Hello all. Long quiet spell. We must all be busy with spring. Except, of course, Chris who I assume is still snowed in. I picked up my refurbished Garrard 301 yesterday and set it up with the Lyra Delos.
You can see before and after pictures on my virtual system.
Not only is the 301 a work of art, I've never heard a Lyra sound this smooth. Gone is the brightness for which many have criticized Lyras. Nice smooth presentation with gobs of liquidity.
I must give a shout out to Greg Metz at STS Turntables. He did an amazing job with the refurb on this table.
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@frogman Interesting. My Lyra Delos sounds significantly better in almost every patamater on the Garrard/Ortofon than it did on the VPI/ET II. On the Garrard the Delos is much richer and the high end is much tamer without being at all rolled off. I've owned two Lyras, the Delos and a Clavis. I've never heard a Lyra sound as good.
That said, I don't think it is an improvement over my VDH Black Beauty on the VPI/ET. Different, which one would expect with different tables, arms and cartridges, but I'd be hard pressed to say one was "better" than the other. Then I suppose that alone is a compliment to the Garrard/Ortofon/Delos rig since the VDH costs more than twice the Delos. I've ordered a second headshell for the Ortofon to see how the VDH sounds on the new rig. |
@ct0517
I don't envy you your "spring". Albeit is snowing here in North Carolina as I type this. You may be right regarding the ET on the Garrard. I cannot, however, see myself drilling new holes in this beautiful plinth. At the risk of being excommunicated from this site I must repeat, the Lyra Delos loves this Ortofon TA-110 arm. It is a heavily damped arm with some kind of space age rubber in the arm tube. I guess it just matches with the low compliance of the Delos. Thinking of changing my ID to Garrard instead of VPI. |
@frogman Interesting question once again. Before acquiring my Garrard I had read several posts in blogs/forums wherein people talked about the "Garrard Sound" and how some tweaks and upgrades were not good because they resulted in a loss of the "Garrard Sound." They described the "Garrard Sound" as a heightened sense of rhythm or pace. Until acquiring my Garrard I had a hard time imagining what they were describing and assumed it was psycho acoustic. I.e., I just paid a lot of money for this rig so it has to sound better.
Now that I own one I think I understand. First, and foremost, the sound is bolder. Lower registers and lower midrange seem fuller giving a better sense of space and a better foundation from which the music emerges. For example, cymbals, bells, snare drums now emerge from a blacker background. For me this makes the music more "alive." More to your point, there does seem to be more toe tapping going on. There is a heightened sense of rhythm. This rhythm component is, of course, more noticeable on rock/pop and jazz than on classical. I'm not talking about speed or quickness (which I assumed would be more related to the cartridge than the table or arm). However, despite the fact I believe the Delos to be far "quicker" than my VDH cartridge I think the VPI/ET/VDH combo is quicker than the Garrard/Ortofon/Delos.
Sorry to be so long winded but your question and what I think I am hearing are quite subjective. Not subtle but subjective. I've only listened for two days but a lot of hours in those two days and the Garrard rig makes me want to tap my toe more than the VPI. I was more inclined to attribute this to the heavily damped Ortofon arm but as you make me stop and think about the subject, it may well be attributable to the Garrard 301. There are certainly other Garrard owners who think so. |
Well, true to @ct0517 prediction the experience with my Garrard has caused my VPI/ET II to demand my attention. Among other tweaks, I think I'd like to try a carbon fiber arm wand. I have two mag wands. Does anyone have a carbon fiber wand they are not using that they might like to swap for a mag arm?
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@ct0517 Re: Setup: I've tried all variations of setup with the VPI/ET/Delos and it always remains a little bright. Yet with the Delos on the Garrard/Ortofon that slightly bright, etched sound goes away. We are using bright and etched with the same meaning. Smooth was probably not a good choice. Rich would have been a better choice for what I hear from the Delos on the Garrard/Ortofon. Not at all rolled off in highs or lows, but an increase in detail in the mid range. More liquid and a blacker background.
I really don't expect a carbon fiber arm wand to make a dramatic difference, but, hey, I've got an aluminum and 2 mags, so why not have one of each.
The Delos on the VPI/ET was setup at mid point of VTF range (1.75) and, as recommended, level with record (no VTA cranked in or out.) On the Garrard it is set up slightly nose down, tail up The VDH Black Beauty on the VPI/ET is also set at the midpoint of recommended VTF and very slight nose down, tail up VTA.
I am not loading either cartridge on either table. My CAT SL-1 is 47k ohms. I tried loading the Delos on the VPI/ET at 40, 80 & 100 ohms. All rolled off the highs too much. I have since made a 1000 ohm loading plug but have not tried it with the Delos on the VPI/ET.
No, the CAT has no gain adjustment, just volume.
The Garrard appears to be running steady at correct speed.
The interesting part is on the VPI/ET rig I am very happy with the VDH, but not so much the Delos. Yet, on the Garrard/Ortofon I am extremely pleased with the result from the Delos. Indeed, with the Delos on the Garrard and the VDH on the VPI they sound very similar. Interesting because these cartridges are so radically different.
I think you have a misperception of where I live. While I am in the South, I am in extreme Western North Carolina in the mountains. We do not get those oppressively hot temperatures in the summer (regardless of what Al Gore would have you believe.)
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@ct0517 Over Dinner I was thinking about our discussion. I'm pleased with the Delos on the Garrard and I'm pleased with the VDH on the VPI. Some might ask, why not just leave them alone. Those would ask such a question would obviously not be audiophiles:)
Cheers,
Harry |
@pegasus . Thanks for the tip on VTF. I'm so pleased with the Delos on the Garrard and its sense of "there", it's probably going to stay on the Garrard. Don't want to touch it for fear of losing the magic. The Delos is a whole different cartridge on the Garrard. I did, however, play with VTF and VTA with the VDH on the VPI to a nice result (good grief is that enough V's for you). I lightened VTF just a tad (.03) and went just a little more nose down with VTA. As you predicted it firmed up the bass and made cymbals more wispy. Not sizzley but more delicate.
Thanks,
Harry
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Those of you who still have your ET bolted to a VPI HW-19 may be interested in my experience with replacing the spring suspension. Being frugal and reading severalblogs about how childrens' noodles made a good replacement I tried one inch pieces of a noodle. While I initially liked the sound they were nowhere stiff enough for my MK III with its steel sub-chassis and TNT platter. Over night the noodle squished down way too far. To make matters worse they didn't squish at the same rate causing a loss of level. Not good for any arm but critical for the ET. Next I tried Vibrapod cones. Hard rubber cones with a steel ball at the narrow end. They made a nice firm foundation but the music seemed to go flat with a loss of air, bloom and soundstage depth. Just kind of boring. Finally, I inserted a set of Herbies extra firm, tall Tenderfeet. The soundstage deepened and the bloom and air returned. Nice firm foundation that does not degrade sound.
Not denegrating the Vibrapod cones. They are a nice product but for this application the tall Tenderfeet were a much better solution.
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@frogman Yes, I remember now you are the VPI aficionado. I've read posts by several people who, like you, don't care for sorbothane as a spring replacement but the sorbothane/cone combination makes sense. I have several of the pucks you describe and a bunch of cones ( metal and ceramic). I'll have to try it out. The Herbies feet are much firmer than sorbothane so I don't think I'm seeing a lot of compliance at the top plate either.
Like bdp24, many like the Sims navcom pucks. Alas, they are no longer made and hard to find on the used market.
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@bdp24 Thanks for very helpful info. Please let us know how your comparisons work out.
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@slaw Sorry for late response. Been away for a week. Up near @ct0517 country. If I can remember how to PM, I'll PM you my location.
@ct0517 Alaska was fantastic and Victoria the most beautiful city I've ever seen.
Harry
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@frogman and others with HW-19. While "checking things out" the other day I noticed at very high volume levels I have a hum in both channels with my HW-19/ET II/VDH Black Beauty rig. The hum is volume sensitive. It is not present with the Garrard/Ortofon/Delos rig. I went through the grounding rituals and believe that the culprit is EMI and not a ground loop. I'm running only 1 foot of solid silver interconnect which has a cotton cover and no shielding. I tried substituting a 1 meter run of shielded Straightwire cable I wasn't using. This made the hum worse and when I reposition the longer interconnect the hum changes in intensity. Primarily because of this last symptom I believe the hum to be EMI.
The sound is a very low level hum but not a buzz typical to ground loop. It doesn't interfere with listening because at any reasonable volume level it is not audible more than a couple of feet from the speakers. As I know all audiophiles can understand, it is just an itch I cannot scratch.
Reading my ET II manual I see that the ET is supposed to have a ground wire with lug attached to the negative side of one RCA plug in the clear plastic phono box. It is soldered to the negative side of one of the RCA plugs. Mine does not have this ground wire. I have
tried, however, without success, running a ground wire from the RCA plug to my preamp..
Based on my preliminary conclusion that the hum is EMI, I have ordered a set of Grover Huffman Empress interconnects but they have yet to arrive. They are triple shielded and low capacitance. I've tried without success to locate the source of EMI by unplugging everything except my amp and preamp. Actually, the amp is too far away from the TT to be the culprit.
Wondering if you or others have any suggestions.
Thanks,
Harry |
@slaw . Yes, I'd be interested in your impressions of the Huffman cables. I've ordered his current Empress. Not that I was dissatisfied with the sq of the current cables I'm using in the phono stage. They are quite revealing without being bright or etched. I'm just trying to get rid of the hum. Admittedly, I'm a little OC about the hum as it is not audible at anything close to a reasonable volume.
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@ct0517 I don't have a straight in loom like you. My loom is terminated in a Cardas phono box with RCA fremale plugs. From the box to preamp I'm using 1 ft lengths of unshielded silver interconnect. The phono inputs on my preamp are on the side of the preamp closest to the TT (not on the back). Following your suggested diagnostics, moving the loom around has no effect on the hum. Moving the interconnect varies the intensity of the hum. So, if my assumption is correct and EMI is the culprit, it is being picked up by the ICs and not the loom. Of course, the ICs are closer to the preamp than the loom.
Acoustic feedback. Yep, I've got it. At listening level, however, it is nearly nonexistent. But, correct me if I'm wrong, the acoustic feedback is distinct from my hum which is there with no tapping and no noise in the room and without the stylus on the still record. It's just another issue for me to obsess about. Right? :)
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Good morning Chris,
Thanks for the thorough analysis. You may just sell me on a loom yet. My current ICs are so short there is no room to move them more than a couple of inches. I have a second set that are a little longer I will try moving around a bit. Yes, I've read the posts and reviews that talk about shielding and coloration. The Grover Huffmans, however, do get some terrific user reviews. I should have them next week and will let you know what I hear.
As for the feedback, your idea regarding subwoofer placement is interesting. I'll try moving mine around. I don't think I had the feedback with the spring suspension on the HW-19 but I really like the stability and modest sonic improvements the Herbies Tenderfeet brought to the TT.
Most frustrating is although my two TTs are only two feet apart the Garrard rig is dead quiet and has no feedback. If a Platine appeared at something I could afford, my VPI would be history.
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Well, thanks Frogman and Pegasus (I think). Pegasus, while I think I understand your basic proposition, you are way beyond my level of electrical knowledge. In any event, my VDH Black Beauty is not the low output model. I don't remember precisely but it is either .5 or .6. I have not tried the VDH yet on the Garrard/Ortofon. But I suspect I would not have the hum because, as you observed, the Ortofon is far more shielded as is the Ortofon cable I'm using. If I understand your explanation, assuming no adverse effect on sq, the Huffman cables may go a long way to solving my problem as they are triple shielded yet very low impedance.
Frogman, no change in hum with motor on or off, plugged in or not plugged in. And, no, I can't hear the hum with music playing, nor can I hear it more than a foot or so from the speakers at reasonable volume levels without music playing. It doesn't intrude on the music. What can I say, I'm an audiophile, I'm OC. Out, out damn hum!
Chris, I plugged in some longer ICs that I can move around. Moving them around makes a substantial difference but I can't listen standing on one leg with one cable around my left ear and the other between my toes. Somehow Keith Jarrett is just not the same. 😜
Thanks to all. I'll report back if I find the magic bullet.
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@pegasus Thank you for the translation. What I find rather strange is that moving my loom around produces no change in the hum while moving the interconnects around has a significant effect on the volume of the hum. Only explanation I can think of is the source of EMI is the preamp and the IC is closer than the loom. Good luck with your London.
Cheers,
Harry
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@ct0517 my pleasure, Chris😇
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VPI's HUM PROBLEM
Before I get started, so that no one's manhood be offended, please recognize this as HUMOR.
That said, here I stand thoroughly embarrassed and disapointed. Embarrassed that after 50 years in this hobby I still don't seem to be able to correctly connect wires to my cartridge. Disapointed in that none of you geniuses thought to suggest I check to see if my hum was caused by connecting the right ground wire to the left pin on my VDH and vice versa. In your defense you probably thought that since I had been in this hobby since before many of you were borne I'd know how to wire a cartridge. In my defense, Bruce's color coding doesn't match my VDH.
Today, the super, duper, triple shielded phono interconnects arrived. Obviously they did not remove the hum. A light went off. I checked and reversed the ground connections to the cartridge and, poof, hum gone. Amazing how good a VDH Black Beauty sounds when properly hooked up.
In all seriousness I do appreciate all your suggestions.
Harry
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@frogman My aluminum wand is Red/Black, White/Blue (no green) and the Blue pin on my VDH is very dark blue. That combined with not paying close enough attention caused reversal. And, absolutely, the sound quality was substantially degraded. Not audible distortion except for hum and loss of a black background. But probably substantial phase issues. Other than the hum the effect was more subtractive than additive. I think because I couldn't hear the hum over the music I underestimated its intensity and the hash that mis-wiring caused. But when I corrected the problem it was obvious that a lot of bad stuff had gone away. Kind of the opposite of a well setup sub where you don't know it's there until you turn it off and hear what is missing. Now, correctly wired, the VDH has never sounded better. Gobs of liquidity, black background and nice bloom.
@pegasus Yes, plug in cartridges would be nice for klutzes lime me.
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@frogman Thinking more about your comment regarding phase issues. I know what reversed plus to minus on one channel does to the sound but I was not sure what I should have noticed when the two grounds are reversed with respect to one another. I know, in addition to the hum, everything was flat and lacked any meat. As soon as I switched the ground leads to proper pins the sound became more full, rich and liquid coming from a blacker background. Not too sweet or bloated just rich. For example, on a well setup analog front end, playing a well recorded live performance, when I drop the needle I can hear the room before the music starts. I just hear the air. With the ground leads reversed that was missing. Now it's back.
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Wow, has it bee 6 Months? I hope that's because is thrilled and nor board with their systems.
@ct0517 Are you iced in yet?
This fall I acquired a Denon DL 103 M. Truly performs way above its class. No, it's not better that the Van den Hul or the Delos but for $200 it is incredible value. Very musical. It just doesn't do any thing wrong.
Cheers,
Harry
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@ct0517
Hi Chris,
My Denon is the M version. From my reading I believe it did not have a conical stylus but a line contact on a boron cantilever. I'm pretty sure my Denon has been retipped, including cantilever because the chap I bought it from said it had an aluminum cantilever and only 50 hours but was not NOS. The DL-103M is way to old and out of production to have only 50 hours and it had a boron cantilever.
The Delos has been resting too long for me to make comparisons with the Denon. I am running it on the Garard 301 through an ARC PH-3 to my CAT SL-1. Compared to the Van den Hul Black Beauty on the VPI. running directly to the CAT the Denon does nothing wrong. It just has a little less. Totally sins of omission. Not quite as much air, extension up top or separation of instruments. Bass extension is very nice. Sound stage not quite as deep. The differences are not large. It is not something one notices if one starts listening on the Denon. It is not until I switch over to the VDH that I hear the difference. But considering the more than 10X price difference the difference in sq is small. And it is just very musical.
Re my sub crossover. I don't know when you last looked at my virtual systems but there are other changes since last we chatted. I was running a Sunfire True sub with no crossover. High level input from my amp to the Sunfire. Gone is the Sunfire, replaced with a Vandersteen sub which uses filters to reduce bass from one's amp and regenerate in the sub. My amp has a 200k ohm input impedance. If I set the Vandersteen input filter/crossover at 200k ohms it is crossing over at 80 hz, but it sounds best set at 100k ohms. I think this produces a slightly lower crossover point but I'm not sure.
Even though I'm running my signal through another box (the crossover) with associated extra plugs and interconnect the Vandy woofer was a huge improvement. Not only is the bass more precise but the improvement in soundstaging, air and room cues was substantial. Releving my main speakers of bass improved everything up above.
I intend to try you near field sub experiment next rainy day but my room does not allow permanent near field placement of the sub.
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Ketchup,
I briefly considered putting the ET-2 on the Garrard but considering the obscene amount I paid for the plinth I quickly decided against drilling more holes. I'll eventually be putting the Delos back on the Garrard and I was never satisfied with the Delos on the ET-2. But it really sings on the Garrard/Ortofon rig,
If you decide to try it, let us know what you hear.
Cheers,
Harry
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Gentlemen,
Can’t help but once again congratulating the members of this thread. On other A’gon threads if one gets off target he is quickly excoriated and belittled. Not here. The latest example is the discussion of the London cartridges. A few of you share your knowledge and the rest of us learn a lot. Makes me want to run out and find a nice Decca - with a Decapod, of course.
Harry
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Hmmm,
Trying to figure out how this thread got 1.3 million views and 2200 posts if only 4 of us own the ET arm?
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Hello all,
Long time away. I’m about to wander off topic again. Awhile back I picked up a Denon DL-103M cartridge which I understand many consider the best of the 103 series. In any event I wasted no time shipping it out to Andy Kim at the Record Doctor. Andy installed his recommended “upgrade” which I believe was boron cantilever and hyper elliptical stylus. When I got it back I thought it sounded quite “nice” on the VPI, ET-2 and Garrard 301, Ortofon rigs but nothing to really crow about. Well, recently I was given a Denon DP-61f turntable in impeccable condition. (Yep, that’s right, a mid-fi, fully automatic table with adjustable Q no less.). In short order I installed the Denon cartridge and sat back prepared to hear some nice mid-fi music. Wow, was I surprised. I’m not sure what’s causing it unless it is just a great symmetry between a Denon table and a Denon cartridge but it is giving my much more expensive rigs a run for their money. Lots of prat, quite detailed but not harsh and extended on both ends. A fun
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