Chris, thanks for Bruce's comments. It all makes complete sense, however my question is still not answered. I suppose its academic, but as a point of interest, I fail to see how air would NOT escape regardless of pressure. Air (like water) under any amount of pressue will choose the path of least resistance, so even though the air delivered at the "ideal" pressure will "surround the spindle 360 degrees", some air will still escape out of either end of the spindle; there is no gasket or blockage to stop it.
Re Dave's comment about air bearing stiffness: with my HP 2.0 bearing and Wisa pump, if I push on the spindle sideways, it takes very little force to cause the spindle to rub inside the manifold. With the Medo delivering 17-19 psi at the arm (yes, it will do that), it takes a considerable amount of sideways force to cause it to rub. The bearing is MUCH stiffer with the Medo, with a resulting major improvement in sound; particularly in the areas of dynamics, bass tautness and speed, and soundstage detail and stability. |
Too easy. I will let the others chime in :-) |
Another hint (when no arm wand is visible):
Look at the width of the portion of the manifold housing (where the lettering is printed) that extends beyond either side of the length-wise "edge" of the spindle tube. Or, look at the same "edges" in relation to the lettering on the manifold housing. Either way, which tube's diameter is wider will be obvious. |
Keep in mind that all the cartridges you own are fairly high compliance; including the VDH which is high compliance by MC standards. The "base aluminum arm wand" is well suited to higher compliance cartridges. Most MC's are lower compliance which means they will send more energy into the arm wand; a higher mass wand such as the magnesium wand would be a better match for most MC's.
Having said that, I have gotten excellent results with my ET2 (magnesium wand) and a Shelter 901. The Shelter's stated .5 mv output plays considerably louder than my VDH's stated .65 mv. It is dynamic, robust and full sounding with a richer and more romantic tonal quality than the VDH's which leans toward a whitish/gray tonal quality (in my set-up, of course). Definitely worth trying. |
Dover, by loosening the screw the bass range gained clarity and speed. The bass is not necessarily stronger, but instead of some bass notes sounding simply like amorphous low frequency energy there is air around the notes, much better pitch recognition, and the sense of a low frequency "floor" in the music wether there is actual bass in the music or not. Of course, this was after experimenting to find just the right amount of loosening of the screw. In my setup what worked best is to loosen it completely and then tighten it so the I beam spring sees the slightest amount of "grab". Thanks again for the suggestion. |
Thanks for the links, Chris. Very nice! Great to hear the Gliere; love that piece. I couldn't find artist info on the site. Is it there? |
Slaw, sounds like your Jun-air's moisture reservoir doubles as a pressure check valve. Seems to me the answer is to keep the pressure at just below "maximum". My homemade surge tank uses a check valve that I cannibalized from the Airtech (with Wisa pump) tank that exploded due to the Medo's higher pressure. That was in spite of the presence of said check valve! Be careful and make sure your tank can handle the pressure. |
Excellent! Congrats, Dave. Let me know when you are ready and I will send you the wire loom for a straight shot from cart clips to preamp to try. I think you will find that revelatory as well. |
Just wanted to add a couple of thoughts re the HP manifold. In a couple of the previous posts there appeared to be the suggestion that the HP manifold was not necessarily a worthwhile upgrade over the original LP manifold. Dave has corroborated what I have always felt: that the HP version is very worthwhile and a very significant upgrade over the LP version. After living with the LP version for several years before upgrading to the HP, I am confident that Dave's experience mirrors mine. I bring this up since the 2.5 manifold is no longer available, so this is an interesting option for all owners of the ET2 for a very reasonable price. Of course, the pump/compressor has to be a suitable one. |
Speaking for myself and the pressure gauge that I use, I doubt very much that it is accurate to within .5 lbs. So, it is entirely possible (and probable) that my arm is seeing anywhere between 18.5 and 20 lbs. I say that based on the less-than-sota quality of the gauge and the fact that the check-valve in my surge tank (20 lbs max rating), on any given day, will inexplicably open or be audibly on the verge of doing so with the dial on the gauge set to 19, and will be fine on another day. I don't know if its possible for voltage fluctuations to affect the pumps output or perhaps humidity levels? Having said all that, I would say that the somewhat broad range of 17-20 lbs is what gives me the best sound IN MY SYSTEM and TO MY EARS. I am impressed that you can reliably hear a difference of .5 lbs. |
Slaw, I remember Gordon's article well; that's how long I have had my ET. I was always intrigued by the Motronix and a couple of years after the article appeared I searched for one without luck. What I remember the article did not make clear, other than the claimed benefits, was what exactly the Motronix did other than provide presumably more accurate control over xthe air pressure? I seem to recall some reference to it releasing some air in a controlled fashion with the supposed benefit of a smoother air supply to the arm. Can you shed some light on this? Thanks. |
Richard, interesting comments. Eventhough I settled on 18.5 -19 psi (at the arm) based on what my ears tell me sounds best in my system and not simply what my HP manifold was designed for, that pressure is (coincidentally?) about .5 psi above the pressure at which the check valve on my surge tank starts to release some air without fully opening. As the pressure is increased further the released air increases until the spring loaded valve opens fully (at about 20.5 psi or so AT THE SURGE TANK). Makes me wonder if the reason the arm sounds best at that pressure is not only that it is the ideal pressure for my arm, but also that the released air has a similar effect as what the Motronix accomplishes. Thoughts? |
Richardkrebs, yes, safety relief valve, I have always incorrectly referred to it as a check valve. Interesting proposition. My DIY PVC tank can handle the full output of my Medo compressor which although rated at 22psi can actually output close to 30psi. Dave has the same compressor and it outputs 32 psi. Prior to installing the relief valve I tried higher pressures (without controlled air bleed) but I did not like the sound which would take on an overly lean and rather tense quality. I settled on 18-19 psi for best sound. I don't think that the relief valve can be adjusted, but it would be interesting to hear what higher pressure with controlled air needing sounds like. |
I remember very clearly that one of the things that reviewers seemed to agree on when comparing the newly released ET2 to the ET1 was the more powerful and more extended bass performance of the ET1. This was described as the one area where the original bested the 2. I would be particularly interested in how the arm wand attached to the bearing tube in the ET1; amount of decoupling and any other physical differences between the two arms that might contribute to this difference. Thanks. |
Thanks for the comments. I had forgotten that the ET1's counterweight arrangement was not decoupled. While I can't speak to why the reviewers that I mentioned considered the weightier bass of the 1 to be "superior", I do agree with Dover that, based on my experimentation, decoupling the counter weight wand does result in bass that is more tuneful and correctly speedy than with more direct coupling. |
****Chris has taught me the extreme importance of the air supply. A good smooth source of air lifts the arms performance considerably. ****
Completely agree; and analogous (pun intended) to the importance of good clean (smooth) power for our electronics. |
Chris, you are a brave man opening up the proverbial can of analog vs digital worms. Perhaps the relative insulation of the ET thread will keep a discussion from getting out of control. The comments about square waves are very interesting, but it is not clear to me what, exactly, the author is trying to say. While I can't dispute his assertion that analog is unable to "reproduce" a square wave the way that digital can, I don't see that as a liability and take exception to the implication (as I read it) that analog is "warm" compared to digital as a result of some shortcoming or distortion; that it is less accurate. Additionally, the comment about the reason for this being, in part, the length of a cartridge's coil windings just doesn't hold water because, as you know better than most, the "warmth" of analog is found, even more so, in RR playback. It is true that analog is "warm" compared to digital. However, it is warm the way that real, live music CAN BE warm; it is not a distortion. It can also sound nasty and ugly the way live music sometimes is. Someone please tell me what I am missing here, but the author's comment: "Digital, especially MP3s, reproduce square waves like crazy. That actually upsets people! You’re triggering your fear, which also triggers fatigue. It’s unnatural." does not make sense to me. Does he not mean to say that digital "produces" square waves as they are generated by logic circuits in digital processing?
Now, before the arrows start flying, we all know that both analog and digital can sound very very good. But, to these ears, eventhough some digital playback can OVERALL (and depending on one's priorities) sound better that some analog, there is always a certain quality to analog that IN SOME WAYS, for me, brings it closer to the sound of real than even the best digital; and there is a certain quality to digital that, for me, always says DIGITAL (square waves?). Sorry if that offends anyone, but that is simply the way I hear it. It is not because of any bias, delusion or stubbornness, but simply a result of being around the sound of live instruments for hours practically every day; and my set of priorities in stereo playback.
Slaw, your comments about needing to always go "back to the music" and about "Nightfly" are right on and very apropos, but I am not sure what you mean by saying that some may be afraid of that. In fact, I would like to respectfully (and in the spirit of lively debate) take you to task. When I first mentioned "Nightfly" (quite a while ago) you felt that you couldn't listen to it because of its sound quality. To say that I was surprised would be an understatement due to my feeling that (especially for a digital recording) it was very good sounding and "fun" in a heavily-produced studio recording kind of way; a feeling shared by many. I am glad that solving some "room issues" now allows you to enjoy that recording, and I can only assume that recordings that were previously fine sounding are now simply spectacular. But, I guess that what "going back to the music" means to me is being able to enjoy the music even if the recording quality is less than stellar. I am having some trouble accepting the fact that your room was so problematic that it rendered that particular recording unlistenable. I will concede that the recording is clearly digital sounding, but it is not grating and has less of that typically digital quality that I would best describe this way: remember the old "Star Trek" TV show, and how when the crew would be teleported ("beam me up Scotty"), the image of the person being teleported would appear to be separated into molecule size dots before disappearing or reappearing. That's how digital images often times sound to me, there is a lack of completeness to the image density that analog seems to have even when there are deficiencies in other areas. There is also a completeness of rhythmic density (?) that gives music the warmth of human rhythmic expression and interplay that seems to be a challenge for a lot of digital recordings.
Thanks for the update on "Nightlfy", glad you are enjoying it and try to find Wayne Shorter's "Atlantis" for a wonderful analog recording in a contemporary jazz fusion (hate using that term but....) bag from one of the greatest player/composers of all time. Sealed copies are not difficult to find. |
Hi Chris, I would be glad to share some thoughts about that. I am on tour in Asia for a couple of weeks with limited internet access and will post when I have a window of opportunity. Regards. |
Make sure that the bearing spindle is perfectly clean; I am sure that you have done that. Then, and the likely problem, make sure that the the bolt securing the bearing spindle to the "joint" is not too tight. This will cause the spindle tube to become deformed and will cause this problem. Lastly, and the most complicated solution, the air capillaries in the manifold may be clogged and need cleaning. Others will chime in with suggestions. |
Fabulous piece of equipment!
Not a bad tonearm either :-)
Would love one of those t.... , ah, I mean, Tshirts.
Do you have a source?
Thanks. |
****as nice a(s) the equipment is.****; and as the ET2'r babe so nicely demonstrates. I'll bet there's some passion for music there! Jazz, in particular. Huh, you say? Look up the original meaning of the word as used by musicians :-)
Slaw, I guess what I am trying to say is (and, apologies if my previous post came across as snippy) that passion is great; but, never stop having plain-ol fun with your music. Regards. |
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****So my ET 2.5 runs with minimal torque on all screw connections. It sounds less artificial and more integrated to my ears.****
Hah! Precisely my observation. Very good exchange, Chris and Pegasus; thank you. |
Richard, glad you enjoyed the tracks. Chris, times truly have changed; but, maybe it's all just less subtle now. Truth is that in many ways they have always had the power and control. They can turn us into mush with a look from those Beth Hart eyes. They have what we want; the "fire". More Beth Hart (those eyes!): http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fALdOkf_eCMWifes, if you're sneaking around here, this one's for you (and don't be too hard on us). One the greatest singers of all time: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K-mI3k6YIFMand one of the most beautiful and, in its way, sexiest records ever: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7OtpZe_HSNg |
Very interesting, Dover. Thanks for the explanations and music recs.
Regards. |
Chris, thanks for the links. A very important topic and one that is not understood by many music consumers. Music is such a personal thing for most of us ("Those eyes!") that it causes most listeners to think of themselves as music lovers vs the more clinical "consumer". In fact, music is a product like any other, and it's creators are entitled to fair compensation for its consumption. I have never understood why many feel a sense of entitlement to essentially steal that product; no different than shoplifting. I remember well when the SNL band had to pull all the charts of Beatles tunes out of our book because it was simply too expensive to perform them. As with most things, what is ultimately paid is negotiable; and, The Beatles, being The Beatles, have no incentive to negotiate anything. It may seem unfortunate, but I say more power to them. |
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****Trying to go rigid in every aspect of a tonearm’s construction will not work when the source is so Flexible !****
THAT is the kind of thinking that let's a sound system translate the information in the grooves (or pits) into MUSIC; and the kind of thinking that is often missing in this great hobby.
Chris, after a few years of suffering the bagging of leaves at our upstate place (incredible views this time of year) I discovered the benefits of simply mulching the leaves with my riding mower. It has to be done more frequently than would be otherwise; but if done correctly, is not only much easier on one's back, it is good for the lawn. Regards. |
**** If I may start bidding at 100 Canadian loonies....(without pictures). I blame this ridiculous starting bid on the relentless pounding my ears have been taking from the crazy bird - the Loon, croaking of bullfrogs, wolves howling, hooting of owls, and the splash of jumping sm bass .. on the end of my line. must be delirious. ****
Sounds like great music to me! I'd like to increase the bidding to 150 Brooklyn squirrels.....wait!....am I mistaken? Is it Down Under where Dover resides; or is it the Deep South, where squirrels are a delicacy? :-)
+1 on removing springs; certainly trying it. Never owned the Goldmund, but have done so with three VPI's with great results. |
Chris, I agree re firm pneumatic suspension; that was the best solution for me given my table's environment. My TNT sits on a wall shelf which fixed the springy floor problem I was having, but created others. With my previous HW19's (II, III & IV) I experimented with just about everything. The sound was best with upturned large tiptoes, but settled on upturned short tiptoes sitting inside Sorbothane pucks as the best compromise. I did not like sound with the springs nearly as much.
BTW, the Forsell still sits in the box (es) :-( |
****Instead one hears more of the structure of sound, and listens into the quality of instruments *and playing* quite a lot easier.****
Precisely. And speaking of instruments, this relates to what is being discussed and, while perhaps saying the same thing, approaches the issue more strictly from the "resonance" angle:
The saxophone and all woodwind instruments incorporate a series of levers and keys which remain open or closed due to the tension of a designated metal needle spring. Each key will remain in its "natural state" (open or closed) until the downward pressure of the player's fingers reverses it's natural state; either closes or opens it. The tension of each spring can be altered either by bending the spring a certain amount during the instrument's "setup" process or simply by using a lighter or heavier spring. The instrument will sound (and certainly feel to the player) more tonally coherent and with a more "right" timbre (which will affect even the perceived intonation (!)) if all the springs (upwards of twenty) have the same or similar tension. |
Chris, that video is one of the funniest things I have seen in a while; thanks.
And loved the Anderson interlude; very expressive and unabashed trombone playing. |
Chris, some brilliant posts recently. Thanks! And thanks for keeping one of the very best threads on the 'goN alive and relevant.
Re "time on one's hands": as Vic said in "Broken Arrow": "Ain't it cool?" |
Slaw, nice to see you back on this thread. Normally, I would defer to the OP for any ceremonial "Welcome back" commentary; but, since you addressed me.....
As with most things, context is everything. I don't remember the context of my comment re 18.5 psi, but I I assure you that there was no personal slight intended by my comment (geez! we're talking about air pressure after all). I would normally welcome an opportunity to clarify a comment and continue dialog, but I see no point if you are simply going to "disappear". BTW, I have enjoyed your music posts in the recent past. |
****I had only a half hour, but here's the quick impression: harmonically richer and warmer; loss of resolution and less articulate bass. I'm unsure about the extent of the latter two since I didn't have time to dial in vta.****
Banquo363, thanks for the pic of your chopstick/ET2. Your description of increased harmonic richness mirrors what I experienced with my wood (balsa) I-beam. That was the main attraction for me when using the mc's that I used at the time; they tended to be leaner and not as harmonically rich as what I hear in live music. The apparent reduced resolution is, for me, a deceptive thing because I think sometimes leanness is perceived as increased detail. I also experienced fuller bass which I believe was the result of having the counterweights further back and not because of the wood. While I could improve the articulation of the bass by adjusting VTA, it was easy to have bass which was overblown; obviously not a good thing and I ultimately preferred the stock I-beam (double spring) with the MM's that I have been using over the last few years. Speaking MM's, the 420STR remains one of my favorites and I too wish I had bought a couple of extras. Happy New Year to all! |
Too funny!
****I can't stand disposable items ...which is what our society has become. ****
An endless argument (not really) between my wife and I. I am always lobbying to hang unto things like our old Sub-Zero which, even after a couple of major surgeries cools and freezes like no other. Funny about your lab pup. Our Artie loves to try and catch the shower of leaves when using my beast of a leaf blower (Husqvarna; again). Loves it second only to sitting still with an expression of total contentment when I blow dry him with it.
Anxiously awaiting your "Audiophile (w)rap".
Yo |
A safe healthy holiday season to you and ours; and all who read this. And thank you for what is, without a doubt, one of the most interesting, educational, and (by Audiogon standards) safe healthy threads; not to mention fun which is something we sometimes forget about in our search for audio perfection. ****For me I am thinking the man in black is going to look good on my mag wand..... **** Definitely! But only the mag. The livelier aluminum should be reserved for the spouse; or..... http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=0M3uR24_V10A voice as mellifluous as the sound of a well-setup ET2. Speaking of audio, setup geometry and the Mona Lisa.... http://geometricinspired.com/da-vincis-mona-lisa/He may have used the Golden Ratio in his wire designs, but I still prefer the AudioNote to the Cardas.... |
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What I heard the first time that I put that little Cracker Jack Box cartridge on my ET was something that specs (as valuable as they are) seldom explain. The music MOVED! Sounds simplistic, but it's something that is hard to describe and very obvious when it happens. Music (when performed well) should have a very strong forward impetus that tells the listener it's going somewhere and is more than a series of temporal events; THAT is the main thing that good analog still has over good digital. I have not tried the 420 in a different arm (the Forsell still awaits), but I think there is an especially good synergy happening between it and the ET that I doubt specs can explain. The "groovy" quality of the bass is especially good; and as Chris reminds us "It's all about that bass". Perhaps it's the romantic in me, but I actually like the fact that in our hobby there always seems to be more going on on a technical level than we will ever fully understand or are able to explain; I think it makes us better listeners.
Happy New Year! |
Funny, just last night when I said "HOLD HERE" my wife (still intact) asked "honey, are you positive that's the long I-beam?" |
Yup! Need two for when (if) I get around to doing a shootout between my ET2/TNT5 and the Forsell (which STILL sits in the box). |
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Very kind of you, Chris. I will take you up on that nice offer. Will keep you posted. |
Slaw, I made the comment in another thread of yours that you tend to personalize these discussions too readily. Well, you are true to form. To ignore your rant would probably be wise, but ultimately way too easy. I like a challenge :-)
Frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about or trying to say. I don't mind being drawn into a dialogue, but you're going to have to be more succinct and clear about what the issue is for you. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the issue for you is that since you are not aware of any of my "projects" that my supposed "authority" is thrown into question. I have news for you: I claim no authority in audio matters. I would respectfully suggest that you not put so much stock in trying to be an authoriy on these topics; express your thoughts and opinions and leave it at that. If it's a worthy idea, the dialogue will follow.
I stand by my comments. If they don't resonate as authoritative enough to you, then simply ignore them; I'm ok with that. |
Very good explanation of the pronunciation of "project"! I was, of course, kidding re projects. I have so many unfinished ones waiting for retirement that it's not even funny; Forsell, ET2/Forsell shootout, Acutex cart cocobolo body, among others. My wife, like you, is a project manager and she loves her work. I did, however, have to put my foot down and ask that I not be presented with monthly pie charts of our expenses :-) Although our pond upstate is not a lake, I am typing while listening to a performance by half a dozen bullfrogs each making a sound that is remarkably like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLOgAjPtA35NR28TypURaO-giLn9VMmw8S&v=nCAA2fEHaa4 |
Slaw, my friend, with all due respect, you've got to get a grip. From my vantage point there is a very strong passive-aggressive bent in the way that you try to have a dialogue; that doesn't work too well for me. Listened to this earlier today (with my ET2, of course). Love YouTube however; no high expectations about sound quality, just the music. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRu18VpYEXk |
Chris, had almost forgotten about those pics. What the pics don't show is that the wire loom is the fourth different type of wire that I have used for my ET2. The AudioNote silver wire in the pic is the fourth, last, and best in my setup and for my tastes. The other three were Vandenhul silver clad copper, Cardas and Discovery. Does that qualify as a "project"? :-) Never knew that this hobby involved "projects". I always thought that it was about assembling a system or making a change of some kind in that system and simply asking oneself: does that change bring the sound of my system closer to the sound of music; or take it farther away? Who knew? Sounds like a great time by the lake. Your account made me think of "The Lake"; the second movement of John Adams' "My Father Knew Charles Ives". A tone poem of sorts that tells the story of a young John Adams vacationing lakeside and listening to the sounds of his father's dance band wafting across the lake. Interesting piece of music. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wriG62OtvTo |
Those frogs are the lowest. Eh? |
Excellent analysis of the sound of your bullfrogs, Chris; worthy of a side bar in The Absolute Frog magazine. Or, should it be Fraaag? Interesting how yours sound so different than mine do. And amazing how such a small creature can produce such low frequencies. There may be a lesson in there (dissection?) for the Totem design team. My bullfrogs sound like this (go to the last of the five audio samples) and notice the similarity to the "twang" of the Brazilian percussion instrument in my previous clip. http://soundbible.com/tags-bullfrog.htmlBTW, if this is part of what retirement has to offer, I'm there! :-) |
