Dear Gregadd: Yes the Aerial is very good option. Its price was a little to much for me but its quality performance is really good.
MK the designer/owner of Aerial was/is the one that made the design of my ADS main speakers.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Pryso: Yes, I agree with you: not really big.
This is the real " magic " of sub's alternative: it does not matters ( almost ) on the room because we are talking in the subs alternative mainly about low bass quality more than quantity.
In my experience two sub's always perform better than one in a room, two sub's makes the response be smoother.
Jloveys and Halcro point out that the ideal number is four sub's and there is the link to a scientific studies about made by Harman International elsewhere in this thread. Anyway the best way to go is when you listen it in your own system: you can't believe what you are hearing and the huge improvement in the quality system performance.
Btw, Dgob ( He posted in this thread ) has a very small room and he integrate two sub's in true stereo fashion with very good results too.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Pryso: The range ( high/low )i the IMD depends mainly on the quality of the woofer driver and how low goes on the bass ( deep bass ).
Normally if the speaker croosover is set at 160hz to the mid-bass driver seems to me that that bass woofer could goes at least to the mid twenties.
The frequencies below 45-50Hz needs a biger woofer excursions that 50hz-up, these biger excursions are the main " culprit " ( not the only ) that the IMD goes high, so if you liberate this woofer from 50Hz down you will have improvement/benefits for lowering the IMD in the main speakers and a better main amplifier performance ( btw, we have to think that because a speaker does not have response, say, at 25Hz this does not means that the amplifier is not working in that frequency and below it. ) and obviously a better quality low bass performance through the dedicated subwoofers.
In this ( yours ) example the high-pass could be at 50-55HZ and the low-pass ( sub's ) at 80Hz, this depend if the filters are first, second or third order. So almost always we can have benefits through the sub's integration with passive main speakers.
As always the differences and improvements/benefits are system dependent and there are no precise " rules " on the subject other than " test and error ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear pryso: IMHO I think that there are some non know-how on the critical importance for the low bass reproduction.
Through the years I heard several full range speakers ( that goes down to 20Hz. ) including mines. In the last year I heard Wilson ( MAXX/Alexandria ), Acapella Triorlon, MBL 101, Dynaudio Temptation, Soundlab and Avalon " something " ( I can remember the model. ) etc, etc.
All very good speakers and if you never had/have the experience/opportunity to hear/heard a good powered subs you can/could think that any of those speakers is the only " thing " you need on the bass subject, all of them are good performers in the low bass but none has the quality level performance of a good powered sub.
You can say: so what? these speakers are great ones and we don't need anything else.
For me ( I can be wrong ) what define/makes the difference between ( talking about speker performance ) good speaker performance and very good/excellent one is its quality performance at both frequency extremes and for these frequency ranges the low bass maybe is the more critical because is the one that contribute the more to " pollute " the whole speaker performance. This is not something that someone tell me, this is my experiences about.
So IMHO till we have the right quality bass response by our each one speaker system we can't speak that we have a very good/excellent quality performance audio system.
Of course that every frequency range is important to the quality performance but I think that the low bass range is the one that can do more for the " bad ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Pryso: The big Evolution Acoustic speakers are a good example of a full range design that does not needs external powered sub's because things are that the Evolution speaker design already have it and integrated to the speaker.
This Evolution speaker design is a good example where the designers take in count the critical importance of the low bass subject and the need that that bass range will be handled by a dedicated woofer/amplifier ( like the sub's. )
I can't say for sure the croosover frequency Evolution's woofers that handle the " sub " bass but maybe lower than 80Hz or maybe the owner can choose it.
Perhaps M. Levigne could share this info with us and can give us his thoughts/experiences on the sub's/low bass whole subject, could you Mike?, thank you in advance.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Drummermitchel: Nice to see that your sub's stereo integration was/is sucessful, congratulations.
Like you say we have to " listen and be patient " to achieve good results.
You even still have " land " to make a little change try it and listen for an improvement or not: to use the high-pass on your DD ones to liberate ( lowering the IMD on the main speakers ) your Revel's from low bass. You can do it and see what happen.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Pryso: I want to add ( a little late!. ) that even if the main speakers cross-over is at 160hz like you say and other benefits that the ones I posted earlier one advantage using separate self powered subs is that that separate subs can more easy be integrated on the room due that you can move it anywhere you need where in a full range speaker you can't because the woofer driver is an integrated part of the speaker and when you move the " whole " speaker to " tame " the bass response you " alter " too the full frequency speaker response .
In other side when you have separate self powered subs ( in true stereo fashion conection. ) using an external electronic crossover always your main amplifier will be liberate it for the low/deep bass response/handling and this means thet that main amplifier will perform better than full range, everything in benefit of an improvement in overall quality audio system performance.
Pryso from my experiences IMHO it is very very hard to beat a satelite/subs main system ( I support/recomended this kind of approach. ) against a non powered/passive non-separate full range speaker and even a self powered non-separate system.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Mapman: +++++ " One of the things the speaker SYSTEM needs to do is cover the low frequencies to the same suitable extent as the other frequencies. " +++++
certainly that is a " must " to have. Not an easy task but the effort to achieve it is worth on its rewards.
The subs integration has to be: seamless.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear TbG: The ST integration in a system could be a " revelation " too because we are not waiting ( between other ST advantages ) that adding ST in our system the bass frequency range ( in especial. ) improves its quality performance just like the subs integration enhance the high frequency range.
I'm using the Tannoy ST with success. You can choose to cross at: 14khz-16khz and 18khz with a gain choosing between 88db to 95db.
I heard the Townshend but I prefer Tannoy's.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Tbg: In my system I really like ST. I bought the Tannoys because made a better match to my speakers but I like too the Muratas even that I never had the opportunity to heard it.
Using the ST gives to my system a quality performance improve at both frequency extremes.
Btw, the Tannoys " only " goes to 60khz not 100khz like the Muratas or Townshend, but works for me.
Certainly the ST integration in a speaker system is a lot easy than subs integration and because the rewards with both items IMHO are worth to try it.
I think that the " problem " with the subwoofers integration in a passive speaker system is the very low knowledge of the people and the same for STs.
Unfortunatelly ( like many other things. ) the AHEE already maintained the subs subject between " dense clouds " and that's why our poor understanding about and understanding of the subs huge advantages ( in favor of MUSIC. ) in a two music stereo system.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Tbg: Btw, AHEE means: Audio High End Establishment.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Vuluongchitam: IMHO your Studio 40 are good speakers and IMHO too it is on the subwoofer side where you have a " trouble ".
First, for listen music I don't recommend one subwoofer ( for very good reasons that you can read in this thread. ) but two units. Paradigm has very good options that can blend with your speakers better than the JBL but the word " blend " is the main subject here.
I take almost a year to stay where I'm today on the subwoofers overall subject inside my system, not an easy task where we not only need patience but good know-how about music and how music sounds " out there " ( live ).
Your speakers are " ideal " to be mated with subs: great combination if you take your time.
Please read what ( and other posts related. ) I posted in this thread that can put some " light " to you on the subject:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&31&4#31
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Stringreen: Harman/JBL people made several studies about the " ideal " number of subwoofers for a smooth response and high bass quality, here is the link where one of their conclusions was that four subwoofers are the " number " but two subs are very good too:
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf
and here what Vandersteen has to say about:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&84&4#84
Btw, Johnnyb53: maybe there is no " fast/slow " subs, please read this:
http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Johnnyb53: I think that the people can read the link and " form " their opinion about.
I agree with some of the points on that article. Sometimes is good to read 2-3 times articles like this one.
I tested along my audio distributors friends several times different subs as stand alone units and I can tell you that that fast/slow subs can't easy to detect.
The " perfect " integration in stereo fashion of subs to satelite speakers are a must and this can be achieved with fast/slow subs in the same system.
A stand alone sub sounds makes no music and even makes no sense when you heard. The relationship between the subs frequency response performance with/inside the satelite speakers is what it counts.
Anyway, the article opens a sligthly way of thinking on that subject.
regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Stringreen: This is another Harman white papers on subs:
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20111112/13680.pdf
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear slaw: My advise through this thread that comes from my first hand experiences is that the signal from the preamp must goes directly to the subs and directly to the main amp or amps.
We want the same kind/graded of signal in both sides: subs and main speakers.
If the signal from the amp outputs goes to the subs this signal is diferent and with higher degradation.
You said : """
Then the amp's character has more of a role to the subs """, well this is not what I want it. What I want it is to have on both sides the same graded signal.
In my system I run the preamp signal directly to the subs and directly to the amps and the high-pass crossover happens inside the input circuit in my amps that are modified for that can happens. I don't use the crossover in the subs to do it or any after market crossover .
Obviously you can try what you want or what your system permits and through your listening tests decide what works better in your system to achieve your self music/sound priorities/targets.
Btw, which speakers do you own?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
