Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Dear Mark: What is all " these " about?. You return ( by any topic ) again and again.

I never say that the Ascents were a bad design or a bad sounding speaker. I only say that IMHO its crossover is one of its disadvantages, because you can't tell me that that speaker is " perfect " with out any disadvantages.

266 parts where the signal must pass on ( see it. ) could be an advantage ( from your point of view ) or could not be an advantage ( from my point of view ).

CH made its own speaker trade-offs design where you or any one else can or can't agree/like ( I'm not saying nothing like an in deep criticism on the design. ), it is just audio opinion democracy.

Please read what a Ascent owner ( that change to the Eidolon ) say about:

++++ The Ascents are not particularly efficient, meaning that they like amplifiers that deliver lots of clean power. I have been running them with VAC 140 monoblocks, which is a great match, but they also sound great with good solid state amps. These particular speakers are the Mark II model. This means that the drivers and crossovers were upgraded from the original release. Eventually, Avalon used its experience in developing their massive and extremely pricey Osiris model to create the Eidolon, which has replaced the Ascents in their lineup of products. The Eidolon does all of the same things that the Ascents do, only better. +++++

other than what we can read, you say: +++ and a sensitive design with good efficiency. " ++++

well this owner thinks: ++++ The Ascents are not particularly efficient.... " +++++

You know another opinion: just democracy!.

And there are extreme opinions about, take a look:

++++I'll get straight to the point. The Vandersteen 1 B loudspeaker is, at $695 the pair, something of an embarrassment for its pricier transducing brethren in the High End. Not because it is better than the $7000 ProAc Response Three, $9200 Stax F41, or $15,000 Avalon Ascent Mk II , outstanding speakers with which I am personally familiar), but because it is so good at $695.00 that one must wonder why we would spend 10 times as much or more for an incremental improvement that is certainly not commensurate. " +++++

Returning to the " constant impedance " on the Ascents I can't find a real measure about but I find from the Eclipse and Avatar: where their impedance specs you can read: nominal 6 Ohms and no below 5.5 Ohms ( similar of what you posted on the Ascents. ) that in the Stereophile Eclipse review its REAL electrival impedance is far far from be " constant impedance ", not only that but has trouble about depending which amp you are using to handle. The speaker efficiency is too in the low side ( 86db ) like the Avatar and Ascent: not like you say: ++ with good efficiency ++++

Could you show me that Ascent " constant impedance " graph that you are speaking? and ( between other things ) that is one of its crossover design advantage?.

Maybe you misunderstood the Ascent " crossover advantages " or think that your opinion is the " good " one and maybe it is for you: no problem about, is fine with me: only permit to " speak/talk " my self opinion about ( that I'm not saying in any way that is the " universal true " and nothing but the true. ), Mark it is only other opinion: not big deal on...!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Halcro: It is nic to read about and that you are really satisfied with those stereo subwoofrs, good fo you: congratulations!!!!

+++++ " ..it's just that you may not be right ALL of the time.... " +++++

I never posted thinking in that way my whole attitude certainly it is not but maybe because of my English trouble what you read can/could seems like if I'm saying in that way but it is not, my attitude ( fo the good or bad ) is to help.

Normally what I post/posted have its foundation in facts/experiences that I already had somewhere ( like the subwoofers subject ) and what I do/did is only to share it with every one but this does not means " per se " that what works for me can/could work for you.

That's why I almost always say please try it before you speak about, this is main part of anyone audio learning curve, I learn/learned in this way: testing/trying, speak/talk on someting that I have no experience is useless for everyone.

Anyway, IMHO the best on this forum is that sometimes something that anyone of us posted can/could help to other people and this is one of my main targets when I post.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Mark: Like I already say it: just an opinion, pure democracy and no big deal about!!!

" Constant impedance ", eh?: is this a fact or an " assumption " ?. I already take advantage: jaja-ja!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Dgob: +++++ " I guess that means that my answer is a resounding "YES", I definitely needed sub's - even though I had not realised it before! " +++++

Your last sentence means ( between other things ) that if we can we should try it.

Nice to hear you are satisfied.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: This is what Gmorris posted in this thread sometime ago:

+++++ " To fully recreate the recording space you need the lower octaves even if the recording involves instruments sans the lower registers.

I was surprised at the improvements in detail and ambience retrieval with increased delicacy as a result of the subs on all types of recordings.

Adding a second sub to complete the stereo pair, improved the overall presentation markedly (some folkes claim that low bass is nondirectional and thus one sw is sufficient, but a stereo pair improved everything). The subs also made the overall presentation more articulate and dynamic. " +++++

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear mark: Yes, I'm only posted as a reference/opinion.

Have a good time.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear pryso: My " ask " to M.Levigne was because ( if I remember ) in their last three speakers in his audio system ( including the today ones ) he owned and own speakers that handle the low bass by self speaker powered woofers ( well I think that with his Kharma's he used the separate Kharma sub's ), so he already has a wide experience on the advantages to reduce the IMD on the speakers and the advantage to have dedicated drivers/amplifiers working in the low bass.

I hope he can read this and want to share his experiences about.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: Yes, absolutely!.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear friends: For almost seventh months my system was running with only one subwoofer ( left-right channel bass signals in mono way. ) due that the other one was down because a failure, five/six weeks ago this one was fixed thank to Velodyne and I want to share with all of you something about:

due that I own two similar subwoofers we try to fix it at home, first we have to know where the failure comes so we check ( through the sub in good condition ) every single module and we found that the failure comes from the amplifier module that with out the diagram was a very hard time to fix it so I contact Velodyne and they agree that the amplifier module was the problem and that I send it to repair ( amplifier module alone ).

I did it and ten days later I receive a " big " box with the amplifier module ( at least that was what I think at that moment ) and when I open the box I was surprised that they not only send me the amplifier module but the whole subwoofer modules ( including the metal rear plate ): they send me a whole new electronic subwoofer modules!!!!, my hat off to Velodyne.

Over those six months my ears/brain were totally accustom/equalized to that single subwoofer quality system performance.

I connect the second one and put some of my prefered Lp's and the quality performance of the system " suffer " a big improvement against the " one subwoofer " fashion, this improvement is on the quality performance level not on quantity.

Through this experience I confirm again that one subwoofer in an audio system is the ( almost ) wrong way to go.

IMHO nothing compares to two subwoofers in true stereo fashion!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Halcro: Yes 4 could be better but I never try it and yes 5000 is the ideal with no one in the room!

Anyway you can try it, but I think that two are more " comfortable ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
raul.

Halcro: Now I remember that article where comes those scientific studies about those 5,000 subs. I think that somewhere in this tread we can read it.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Johnnyb53: This are the experiences that an Agoner had in reference to that Soundstage subs article:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&340&4#340

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: Some weeks ago I read in one of the Agoner's virtual systems ( sorry not remember which one. ) that one of you made a tweak to a Velodyne DD subwoofers changing the internal wiring with good results.

So, this week I decide to make the same change with my Velodyne's HGS-15, that take me 3-4 hours to complete the job in both units ( btw, the first one is where I take more time because this was my first time to attemp about and have to learn. ). It is a shame that these great subs comes wired from woofer to amplifier with plain zip cords ( I don't know how comes in the latest DD series. ).

I just change the internal wiring ( 50-60cm ) on the subwoofers for Kimber Kable KCAG ( the one that I had on hand , very good indeed. ) and the quality improvement on the system performance improve in a way that I never imagine.

This is not only that the bass is more clear, precise and with better definion and tight feeel but the midrange and high frequencies improve too making that the system performs now with a better pristine/transparent and natural presentation that I never heard/hear it.

I assume that with the new cables the distortions goes down and that's what permit to achieve this really nice and paramount quality improvement.

Yes, it is worth the effort to do it.

If you want to make it my advise is that you be carefully on the job, of course that you can email me if you think I can help you about.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear friends: This last experience that improve the low bass performance confirms to me that one critical factor to achieve " stellar " near " perfect " top quality system performance is try to improve the low bass quality performance in our audio systems.

Of course that room treatment help a lot but the subwoofers alternative is a very good " road " to make it and when we already have it then work in deep to achieve the best on it.

Every single day that pass and that I listen my " new " system is an immense joy/enjoy of the musi like never before.

Subject is that real low bass is a desirable factor but the real subject is to have that real low bass in " pristine " condition, when you achieve this your " idea " of top system quality performance change: you discover(y) a " new " world that you have in " front " of you ( with some systems up-dates ) and that you don't know is there but you can have it.

IMHO as much as you improve that bass response ( lowering IMD too. ) as much you improve the whole/overall ( in all single sound reproduction areas. ) performance of your system.
Yes, I'm really exite/rouse about and IMHO I think that everyone has the " right " to hear this kind of performance level where I know you can make it.
Sometimes is difficult to express these top/new experiences in words and as a fact maybe we can understand in precise/deep way when we hear it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Utahusker: As you posted LaScala maybe can/could give you clean in room response down to 50-55 Hz no deep bass.

Now, you don't have to loose what you have, the " idea " is to improve what you ( we ) have.

The La Scala woofer crossover is 400 Hz that tell us that that woofer works near 600 Hz, a wide frequency range that makes that the IMD go high and against quality performance.

+++++ " I don't want to ruin that sound with a slower muddy bass response that a subwoofer would provide. " +++++

if you can please read here to understand about and to understand how the subs can/could help to improve the quality performance of your home audio system:

http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

This one could help you too: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&84&4#84

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jloveys: Like in many other audio topics there are a lot of mis-understood on some subjects.
The subwwofer one is full of false myths and non know-how about and that's why not so many people can take the huge advantage of the subwoofer great quality improvement in almost any audio system.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear friends: Well, here is where I read the subs re-wiring mod: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1140494870&openflup&36&4#36

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jloveys: I don't know if you ever consider to mate your Quad's with two subs in real stereo fashion. It could be interesting and IMHO it could give you a " natural " quality performance improvement.

f course that that is room/system dependent but maybe worth to try it.

What do you think about?

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jloveys: I Agree with you about that 3D sound image.

I take more than 8 months to integrate my subs " seamless " where I was looking not exactly for a better soundstage ( that at the end was an improvement too. ) but: better bass quality, extend the bass range and its quality performance, lower IMD to achieve better midbass/midrange performance, high frequencies with better natural transparency, better tonal balance and better " true ".

These targets ( and other ones ) can/could be achiving with that " seamless " subs integration.
Not and easy task, very time consuming where patience, know-how and good ears are desirible.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

good.

@mijostyn  : Balanced force in sub's is not something new, Thiel and ML did it along other manufacturer before.

 

" I am surprised that nobody is making cylindrical subwoofers. " , not today but in the past HSU was a proffesional proponent of that design and they manufactured subs's that gone as lower as usuable 4hz frequency.

In reality, it's almost nothing new about sub's but differences in its quality design implementation and digital crossover technology that in the past never been used.

 

R.

Dear friends: Along the other 2 Harman links I posted in this page this one could be interesting for almost all of us:

 

Harman How to Listen

 

R.

 

 

Dear @mke246  : Good. That " well defined bass as low as 31hz " yes is incredible coming for 1927.

 

Good luck with your 7360's.

 

R.

@mke246 : This thread exist and I started mainly to learn and understand that the main function to integrate 2 self powered subs to an audio room/system that’s used to listen MUSIC is to cleand up the whole mid/HF frequency ranges putting the main speakers IMD at minimum using a hiugh pass crossover filter and as an additional " side benefit " those subs permits no9t only to go deeper in the bass range but with a dedicated amp/drivers to that bass range be listened spot on.

Now I think that due to your personal needs in reality you don’t needs to add sub’s due too that your Genelec speakers are great self powered tri-amp excellent design where you not only can have 113 db SPL but can go down to 32hz and even usuable 28hz an according with specific model measurements your speakers at continuous 86dbs is THD is so low that maybe you can’t be aware of its levels and the low bass at that SPL is just accurated and only at over 95db SPL the speakers goes inside trouble.

Additional to all 5hose you normally listen at true near field position and different that mijostyn I don’t need to insist in subs for you. I listened your speakers and for any one it’s an " eye/ear opener ", excellent monitors truly accurated that’s main characteristic for an studio monitor.

 

 

R.

Dear @mke246  : I think that you are living a great first hand experiences listening to those very old recordings as that of Fats Waller. Congratulations.

 

R.

Now that I read the mijos  post I can see that the frequency is at 350hz ( I can't find it ). So, if it's at 350hz then the HP is desired to has down there but in the other side you are really listening at near field, even that the IMD is there and you can clean up. Maybe Genelec can help you to choose Genelec subs at your specific needs.

 

R.

Dear @mke246  : Good. The other parameter that we have to know with your Genelec's is at what frequency crossover those 8" woofers to the mid-range....

 

R.

Dear @mke246: Well, your powered 3-way monitors are really good ( I had the opportunity to listen it. ) specially at near field position.

The weakness ( if any ) is when you have a greater room and don't listen at near field position where the bass range at higher SPL just distorts, nothing is perfect and in my case even that normally I listen at near field position my room is to big and I listened to evry kind of MUSIC with low bass content. I don't know how you considere Organ instrument as an acoustic o0ne or not but not only the organ scores but what mijos posted about the venue breaths.

I don't know the kind of room you have and your seat position but maybe you are acandidate to integrate a pair of subs using only low-pass filter, using the subs as a low bass reinforcement crossover30hz-40hz 8th order filter shape. Just thinking " loud "..

 

R.

Dear friends: from my last sub changes I confirm that that doppler developed characterisc in woofer main speakers must be should be at absolute minimum.

The issue is that the bass range is all about MUSIC room/system quality level reproduction and the bass rage must be perfectly blended inside the bass range. This is high mid-bass, mid-bass, low mid-bass, low bass and deep bass.

That blend must permit that we be aware of eacg bass frequency range with out a bass frequency range " leader " or " leaders " and all those is the true challenge we have with the subwoofer room/system integration.

That bass frequency ranges blend will gives me the best MUSIC rythm ever and the perception of dimensional MUSIC presentation where each track performs in its each territory that’s our room seat position.

 

With out all those we can’t really have true MUSIC enjoyment and only " something " that we like it..

Not an easy task that bass range frecuencies blend because it’s as complex as a speaker design where the designer needs not only to choose the rigth drivers but the rigth crossover frequency for each driver and the crossover filter shape that permits a seamless blend that’s what makes the differences between a good speaker and a very good or excelent speakers.

Here mijostyn  looks as he knows about and maybe could share his point of views.

 

R.

Well, Velodyne makes the blend at crossover frequency with a second order filter shape and latter on pass through fourt order and finished at 48db per octave in my HGS and the Velodyne HP is a first order filter (6db. ).

The name of the game is that blend at 12db per octave along the 6db per octave that in my case is not made by the Velodyne but at the input of my Levinson monoblocks..

 

R.

" Two subwoofers, at opposing wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the midpoints and gives a much better LF factor. "

 

That’s the Harman conclusion. Now, if we are using our room/system mainly to listen MUSIC where is the bass range we need be reproduced by subwoofers?

Mainly from around 50hz-60hz and down at least to 16hz but 80%-90% of our daily reproduced MUSIC bass range belongs from 60hz/70hz to 30hz and for me this is the main ( other than put at minimum the Doppler effect/IMD ) desired dedicated drivers to bass reproduction and here the phase subs control is way critical. Yes some kind of instruments MUSIC reproduction needs that the subs can works fine from 25hz to 16hz, fine means with absolute aplomb. My Velodyne has usuable 10hz frequency but not so important.

In my latest phase experienced tests I been totally sure about because the overall reproduced sound over all the system frequency range was and is improved in its quality levels as ever before the phase subs change and was only this parameter the one I touched in the subs : same volume, same crossover point, same everything including the subs positions, nothing then but the phase.

 

Other critical and way important issue when we are integrating subwoofers in our MUSIC system is to have a " rigth " blend " between the sub’s crossover point and the main woofers crossover point.

It has to works exactly as speakers designers do it with his speakers where they choose the rigth crossover frequency of the different filters ( HP, LP, BP ) using normally between first and third order for those filters according each frequency range driver to BLEND . No one use 6 or eigth order filters because the issue is to BLEND and not separates the frequency ranges. Then, this BLEND along the Phase are crucial.

 

R.

Dear friends : In this subs issues we have to follow the Physics rules. Here a room mode calculator:

 

Room Mode Calculator_0.xls (live.com)

 

and here why at one seat position 2 subwoofers are good enough to listen MUSIC, we don't need 4 but we can use those 3-4 additional in HT but not need it for MUSIC only:

Microsoft Word - whitepaper10.doc (harman.com)

 

R.

 

@mijostyn  : Sorry but your post has no meaning for me or I made a poor explanation in my other post.

 

R.

Dear @secretguy  : " And in the wrong category. "

Could be but when started this thread I decided in that way. Not many analog lovers were using subs in their systems like today times. In those old times and through this thread several gentlemans ( including me ) learned a lot about this subs crucial/vital audio subject.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : " One minute you think you have it sounding great, the next minute not so much. "

More or less is what happened when started to test it that nigth but from yesterday till today the romm/system reproduced sound is just nothing less than sublime.

 

Last time I seen your virtual systwem the subs were directly seated in the floor, for me not the best any sub position. The new cilindrical boxes looks fine and similar to a transmision line subs that I listened several years ago. Have good luck with.

 

R.

 

Dear friends: I started this thread almo9st 20 years ago but things are that as many other audiophiles I followed learning not only in this subs issue but in the audio world genral subjects.

 

Well, in the last 2 years I made it several chnages/up-dates/up-grade to my room/system and mainly to my speakers crossover parts.

So and thank's to a thread dialogue in Agon where I 'm participating last nigth I decided to try different changes in my subwoofers PHASE that's a subject that not only in this thread but in no other thread or audio forum never read in deep the critical importance of Phase in the subs to stay sure that's room/speakers integration is " optimal ".

Started listening to Original Motion Pictures  CDs source with MUSIC as Day After Tomorrow, Gladiator, Thin Red ine and the like. Almost all goes deep in the bass through synthesisers. During my late nigth session I left the PHASE at the best position my ears told me and I gone to sleep with some doubt about.

So, early this morning I come back to my system to continue testing PHASE in the subs and this time with acoustic instruments in several LPs I own and used mainly the Telarc 1812 recording that comes with several kind of bass at diferent frequency bass ranges and my last nigth doubt came out: the choosed Phase was wrong and when finally my analog Phase tests session I achieved a quality level I was not prepared to attain, it was something unexpected and the best it happens to me in many ytears with my audio system.

 

That's why I urge all of you that already own subs in your systems to " play " seriously with the Phase control in your subs and if you already do it then try it again to confirm is ok for you.

Patience is only what we need but the rewards are huge on this Phase critical subject.

I never imagined its crucial importance.

My findings where confirmed in an Agon thread by a true Agoner expert in that and other audio subjects as is : @deep_333  ..

R.

 

Dear @enginedr1960: I think that you can have even better results if your monitor hi-pass changes from 50hz to 80hz. You can do it listen it and decide about. It's only an alternative to test it.


regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Ebm: +++++ " NOBODY really needs one if your system is set up right. " +++++

how is that?, could you explain in a more wide manner? could you share with us on the subject your point of views/experiences?. Thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Ebm: I return with you because we don't have yet your answers.
For me is interesting to know your experiences on the subject because from what you posted I can/could assume that you learn/experience " something " special on the subject.

In the mid-time I want to share with you some comments on what you posted:

IMHO I think that if you, me or anyone want first rate deep bass ( below 40s ) the sub's alternative is a very good one. In this thread you can read elsewhere other true advantages.

If we take your Mini II's it does not matters that the set-up is right you never can have that clean deep bass with those speakers. Not only that and even with the high technology on those speakers the woofer frequency range that handle that driver is really wide: around 35 Hz to 3K, this is at least six octaves where the IMD is a serious concern, IMHO there is no perfect speaker drivers where in that wide frequency range the IMD measure cero. So, here the sub's alternative could help overall.

+++++ " In most cases it does not realy blend with the main speakers. " +++++

I agree with you but nothing is easy for improve the quality soud reproduction in a home audio system and specially on the sub/speaker blend: this is the challenge, it is not for sure a " plug&play " alternative, very faraway from there.

As you know normally nothing comes by " free " and almost always comes with trade-offs: in the sub's subject and for what I already experience about in several audio systems the sub's alternative is worth to try it.

It is for everyone, certainly not but IMHO a very good " road " to " explore ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Ebm: Well, I know that the subs alternative is something that unfortunately we can't decide through other system people but we have to try and hear in our system and this could means that we have to invest before hearing it.
The good news are that is very posible that we like it but if we don't always can put on sale the subs. So we almost can't loose and in the mid-time we can have some " fun " audio exercise where we can add something else to our audio learning curve.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jimjoyce25: There are many factors that contribute to develop a poor " image " on subwoofers specially in the high-end stereo music reproduction market.

If you remember in the past ( many years ago ) no one use subs, the speakers were designed with a low bass range down to 35-40 Hz in the " biggest " models, almost no one ( for home music reproduction ) made speakers designs with that additional 1.5 octave on the low bass ( there were some exeptions, my ADS ones are one of that exceptions, but not many. ). Many manufacturers perhaps decide that because a " normal " speaker that goes down ( flt-clean ) to 20Hz must be BIG ( difficult to have at home ) and expensive and maybe they think that there are no " music " down there.
This last subject were and still today are supported by reviewers and audio dealers that are whom give the advise to the customers, so they give a non correct information to us the customers, so we have a misunderstood on the subs subject.

But not only that, in those times when the people start to ask/use subs normaly they use one unit ( stnd alone where you need to buy an amplifier to power it. Not many self powered subs in those times. ) and only to re-inforce the bass in their systems but with out any know-how or the right advise to why and how to do it ( some models even came with a fixed low-pass frequency and with out almost any facilities to really " blend " with your system. ), as time goes on many of these sub's users came disatisfied with the subs and put on sale and in their minds the figure of a subs were a " bad move " and they pass their experiences on the subject to other people.
If you check on audio magazines ( any ) of those times I can't remember any single reviewer that owned subs in his systems even the subs magazines reviewes were almost none, so the for the customers the subs were nothing or a " must " to have

Unfortunately the commercial subs came with no-facilities in the crossover, many with out amplifier, not so good drivers/woofers, not so good electronics ( even today some sub manufacturer IMHO don't put interest in the quality needs on the subs. That's why some of us made mods on them. ) and with almost no advise from any one. These anomalies make that many times the subs sound reproduction were of bad quality: only one note bam or boom boom and nothing more to appreciate.

The audio industry grow-up: better recordings, better quality speakers, better quality electronics and the like. The subs grow-up too but not at the same quality level than the other items and the audio magazines and audio dealers still with out support the subs subject, mainly IMHO because a very poor/small know-how about. So how the customers can think on the subs if no one speak about its advantages like a good alternative to improve the quality performance of almost any audio system? even the speaker manufacturers that build subs like Wilson, Krell, Thiel,, etc, etc, don't really promote their subs models, why? I can't be sure if it is for they do not have the know-how level or because they have it and goes against its full business, let me explain this last comment with an example:
if someone owns a WattP-8 and want to improve/up-grade the quality performance on his system through a new speakers ( normaly same manufacturer, in this case Wilson. ) almost always he/they think in the next top model: the MAXX3 instead to add subs to the WP8, this subs alternative it is not only less expensive but one that beats the MAXX3 quality performance but the manufacturer and the dealer say nothing about, never give to the customer this alternative.

There are a lot of mis-information , misunderstood and non know-how on the subs great alternative in a stereo systems. Many people are still thinking that the subs are for HTS and not to listen " serious music " ( even manufacturers like REL that have not a high-pass filter in its crossover. ). Unfortunately is sad that all these people are loosing the best an ever opportunity to really improve the quality performance in their home systems.

In this thread we can read many of the advantages adding two subs in real stereo fashion where the main one is not IMHO " only " to achieve low bass but improve the quality performance of the main speakers!, till the people understand the why's and how's on the subs subject they will continue hearing ( obviously not all. ) home systems with a " weak " leg.

Yes, IMHO everywhere ( manufacturers, reviewers, dealers. Not all. ) non know-how on the subject is the main " culprit ", of course that money or space/place's limitations have a role too.

Like everything the subs subject is an educational one, many audio people are at the low subs learning curve, sooner or latter we all will grow-up on that learning curve where the rewards are almost incredible and of paramount importance in favor of the MUSIC perception.

There are other factors that have influence but it will be too long to analyze each one even I can be wrong on what I think.

What do you think? do you want to grow-up? do you want to be better?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear pryso: Thank you to share your experiences about are really lightining.

Yes, IMHO the main advantage in the subs integration to almost any audio system is to lower the IMD making improvements like the ones you experienced.

Yes, through these seven tread pages in one way or the other the people that participate cover several subs advantages like the one you name it and you can read here something else about:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Velocityyofhue: As I posted and from my point of view and experiences the main target to add subs to your audio system ( almost any system ) is not to go deep in the bass or higher bass quantity but to improve the quality performance of your Thiels ( and achieve a lot whole better system performance. ) lowering its high IMD/THD ( intermodulation distortion/total harmonic distortion. ), this target when you achieve it makes a difference like night and day, period.

Now, your Thiel's are a very good example on the subs subject because the Thiel woofer handle a wide ( more than five octaves ) frequency range: 28-30Hz to 1Khz ( due to its first order slope crossover. ).
That woofer needs to reproduce at the same time a 40Hz frequency and a 500Hz one ( example, the reality is more complicated due that the woofer has to handle all the frequencies in its very wide range. ) where the needs to the 40Hz frequency reproduction stress ( IMD ) heavy the 500Hz frequency reproduction where this one loose its un-distorted/clean reproduction that we heard like a smeared non-transparent no precise definition, etc, etc.
I know that you like what you are hearing, well you can't imagine how good is your system till you make that the IMD in your speakers goes really lower and one of the alternatives is through the integration in true stereo fashion of two self powered subs blended seamless.

When you achieve this the Thiel's woofer will work between around 80 Hz and up lowering the IMD that clean-up all the frequency spectrum response, now that woofer will work with out the " stress " ( excursion, overhang and the like that affect seriously the whole woofer quality performance: a heavy compromise. ) in favor of overall speaker quality performance.
At the same time the whole bass response will improve its quality performance because right now that bass frequency range is handle for a dedicated ( was expressely designed for ) speaker ( the subs. ) and for a dedicated amplifiers that was expressely designed to match exactly the needs of that subs drivers.
Here you will have and wll hear the quality on the bass that you never heard in any full range speakers ( non powered ) at any price.
You not only improve the quality of the bass response but obviously you improve to in the bass quantity and in a lower/deep bass response that you will hear only when the recording demand it.

Everything change for the better: power handling because your Krell will be working in a less wider frequency range: its overall performance improve, sounstage will be a lot better too, there are so many improvements that is almost impossible to name it.
Other thing: right now the position of your speakers is a compromise between the in room bass response and the mid/high response, there is a trade-off.
When the " deep " bass liberate the Thiels then you can move it/change a little its room position to achieve a better in room mid/high frequency range response/perception and the subs will be locate too at its best in room position: best of two " worlds "!

IMHO it is worth to try it, the change is of paramount importance with several and true rewards.

It is almost useful/vain to argument against the subs with out listen/try the whole alternative.

Of course that some speaker manufacturers and/or audio dealers/reviewers can't support the subs " road " because the alternative goes against business ( $$$$ ) where the money is on sales of bigger ( more costly ) ( next model in a speaker line. ) or different speakers ( more expensive )than in two inexpensive subs that we even can buy second hand.
But even IMHO if we are wealthy enough the fact is that we can't achieve better quality performance ( everything the same or that the main speakers were decent speakers. ) with the new " big " speakers " than with the un-expensive subs alternative.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear gregadd: That system is a " impressive " cost no object alternative.

However, those Gothan's are used as a bass re-inforce " tool " where the Alexandria's works full range.

Here, the owner's system choose ( IMHO with all respect I take this system example like that an example only and not like a critic on it and not telling that my " voice " is the only and right one. ) not taking advantage on the subs whole subject ( well he is taking advantage on the bass re-inforce but with many trade-offs, one of them is that the main speakers are playing in the low bass at the same time than the subs. ).

I f I was " there " ( unfortunately I did not, a healthy " envy ". ) my choice will be for the Velodyne's DD-15/18 or the DD-1812, both have a high-pass filter that we need to liberate the Alexandria for the low bass range.

The Velodyne choice not only give me that HPF but better specs on bass frequency range and its HD is the lowest on commercial home subs: less than 0.5%, this is very important because we want a clean in room response down there and according with the HD " quality " of the main speakers.

Other advantage to separate the low bass on the Alexandria's is that those Lamm's amplifiers will perform better with out " see " that bass range.

The Alexandria's are " easy " to handle almost for any amplifier SS/tube due to its very high efficiency ( 95db. ), Wilson say that you can start with amplifiers that put at least 7 watts but IMHO and due to its low impedance ( 3 ohms. ) and complex electrical impedance curve this speaker is not an " easy " one and its needs ( like the music needs specially on transients. ) are demanding to a matched amplifier ( not almost any. ) to show its best and great quality performance.

The sub's integration in true stereo fashion IMHO can help to improve the quality performance of the Alexandria/Lamm combo.
Of course that I can be wrong but this is what I think about and what I do with that system.

Gregadd, the audio/music home sound reproduction is a very complex one if we want to achieve a near " perfect " quality performance. The audio chain has many links and the relationship between those links are almost infinite.

IMHO each of those links has its own learning curve where we have to understand the differents steps in that learning curve to take its advantages and try to eliminate its dis-advantages. This link/chain " learning curve " know-how is one of the keys to our " audio dream " sound reproduction.

The sub's subject is one of those links where many of us are at the begin/start of the sub's learning curve, we need to grow-up ( like in other audio link's learning curves. ) learning with true experiences about, it is very difficult to learn if we don't " live "/feel with experiences on the subject.

IMHO as we grow-up on each audio link " learning curve " as better ( not only different but better. ) quality performance will show our home audio system.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jim: THis Legay is a very nice approach/design that address the IMD subject between other things.

Downside?, well nothing is perfect: if I was Legacy I will make those bass drivers self powered with a dedicate amplifier that match exactly the drivers needs and take care in deep about isolation between those bass drivers and the whole speaker.

I never have the opportunity to hear the speaker but seems very good and has very good reviews.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

The sub's alternative IMHO is a tremendous " tool " to improve almost any home audio system quality performance that use tube amplifiers.

Due to tube technology characteristics and the fact that in a sub's system the amplifier does not " see " bass frequency range this improve the tube amplifier overall " power " in the remaining frequency range ( main speakers ) and permit that this un-stressed tube amplifier performs and match better to the main speakers.
The quality improvement is really significant and IMHO this " road " is a must to go specially when we are using tube amplifiers, I can't imagine a better system up-grade everything the same.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gregadd: No fight, I respect that great system owner: it is only that maybe there is a tiny " room " to improve. Always is a temptation try to help, no critic at all.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gmorris: As you point out a different sub's integration with different trade-offs ( advantages/dis-advantages ).

I prefer to lower the IMD on the main speakers in favor of an improve in the quality performance on the main speakers and to handle the low bass with a dedicated speaker ( sub s) that was designed in specific to that frequency range along its self-powered amplifier.
IMHO no full range passive speaker ( like the great Alxandria's. ) can show/even the quality performance in the bass range like a dedicated self powered sub, the right sub and at the same time I don't know any amplifier ( SS/tube/hybrid. ) that can even the matching between the driver ( woofer ) and the amplifier in the sub's that was designed to the specific needs of that woofer for that specific frequency bass range, synergy is the name of the game.

The key is the quality of the crossover that in Velodyne, Revel, and the like are very " decent ".
The ideal " key " is to make directly the crossover high-pass filter at the main ( internally ) speaker amplifier(s) and if you can't do it then through the sub's own crossover.

The choice of the sub's model is a critical subject, not all the sub's are the same and not all the sub's have the same quality performance and the same quality " self " electronics specially its crossover.

I prefer too the use of the same amplifier in the main speakers, the right amplifier.

When we use two different amplifiers ( like in your system ) IMHO we have two different performances due to the diferences between these two amplifiers: different output impedance, different frequency response, different THD, different gain, different slew rate, different colorations,...different noise level,....different.....diferent..., etc, etc, the only and almost the one similarity between both units is its name: amplifier.
I know that you like it and this is the important factor because is you who are living each day with that system.

I respect your approach, however the targets and its quality level that you achieve are totally different from the targets and quality levels that we achieve trough the alternative that I support.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gregadd: From the planar speakers the Maggies are one that I like it, I had the opportunity to heard he 3.6 in my system ( years ago ) due that the dealer here was a close friend of mine and in a friend's system the 20.1, very good ones.

Yes, certainly I have " anomalies " in the frequency response spectrum on my speakers/room, however I can tell you that our ears ( yours, mine and everyone. ) along our know-how/experience are very good, sensitive and discriminate tools on sound reproduction perception.

Almost all different sub's approaches are valid , this depend of what targets do you want to achieve and what quality level do you prefer.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.