Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Dear friends: Well, here is where I read the subs re-wiring mod: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1140494870&openflup&36&4#36

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jloveys: I don't know if you ever consider to mate your Quad's with two subs in real stereo fashion. It could be interesting and IMHO it could give you a " natural " quality performance improvement.

f course that that is room/system dependent but maybe worth to try it.

What do you think about?

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jloveys: I Agree with you about that 3D sound image.

I take more than 8 months to integrate my subs " seamless " where I was looking not exactly for a better soundstage ( that at the end was an improvement too. ) but: better bass quality, extend the bass range and its quality performance, lower IMD to achieve better midbass/midrange performance, high frequencies with better natural transparency, better tonal balance and better " true ".

These targets ( and other ones ) can/could be achiving with that " seamless " subs integration.
Not and easy task, very time consuming where patience, know-how and good ears are desirible.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Ebm: +++++ " NOBODY really needs one if your system is set up right. " +++++

how is that?, could you explain in a more wide manner? could you share with us on the subject your point of views/experiences?. Thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Ebm: I return with you because we don't have yet your answers.
For me is interesting to know your experiences on the subject because from what you posted I can/could assume that you learn/experience " something " special on the subject.

In the mid-time I want to share with you some comments on what you posted:

IMHO I think that if you, me or anyone want first rate deep bass ( below 40s ) the sub's alternative is a very good one. In this thread you can read elsewhere other true advantages.

If we take your Mini II's it does not matters that the set-up is right you never can have that clean deep bass with those speakers. Not only that and even with the high technology on those speakers the woofer frequency range that handle that driver is really wide: around 35 Hz to 3K, this is at least six octaves where the IMD is a serious concern, IMHO there is no perfect speaker drivers where in that wide frequency range the IMD measure cero. So, here the sub's alternative could help overall.

+++++ " In most cases it does not realy blend with the main speakers. " +++++

I agree with you but nothing is easy for improve the quality soud reproduction in a home audio system and specially on the sub/speaker blend: this is the challenge, it is not for sure a " plug&play " alternative, very faraway from there.

As you know normally nothing comes by " free " and almost always comes with trade-offs: in the sub's subject and for what I already experience about in several audio systems the sub's alternative is worth to try it.

It is for everyone, certainly not but IMHO a very good " road " to " explore ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Ebm: Well, I know that the subs alternative is something that unfortunately we can't decide through other system people but we have to try and hear in our system and this could means that we have to invest before hearing it.
The good news are that is very posible that we like it but if we don't always can put on sale the subs. So we almost can't loose and in the mid-time we can have some " fun " audio exercise where we can add something else to our audio learning curve.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jimjoyce25: There are many factors that contribute to develop a poor " image " on subwoofers specially in the high-end stereo music reproduction market.

If you remember in the past ( many years ago ) no one use subs, the speakers were designed with a low bass range down to 35-40 Hz in the " biggest " models, almost no one ( for home music reproduction ) made speakers designs with that additional 1.5 octave on the low bass ( there were some exeptions, my ADS ones are one of that exceptions, but not many. ). Many manufacturers perhaps decide that because a " normal " speaker that goes down ( flt-clean ) to 20Hz must be BIG ( difficult to have at home ) and expensive and maybe they think that there are no " music " down there.
This last subject were and still today are supported by reviewers and audio dealers that are whom give the advise to the customers, so they give a non correct information to us the customers, so we have a misunderstood on the subs subject.

But not only that, in those times when the people start to ask/use subs normaly they use one unit ( stnd alone where you need to buy an amplifier to power it. Not many self powered subs in those times. ) and only to re-inforce the bass in their systems but with out any know-how or the right advise to why and how to do it ( some models even came with a fixed low-pass frequency and with out almost any facilities to really " blend " with your system. ), as time goes on many of these sub's users came disatisfied with the subs and put on sale and in their minds the figure of a subs were a " bad move " and they pass their experiences on the subject to other people.
If you check on audio magazines ( any ) of those times I can't remember any single reviewer that owned subs in his systems even the subs magazines reviewes were almost none, so the for the customers the subs were nothing or a " must " to have

Unfortunately the commercial subs came with no-facilities in the crossover, many with out amplifier, not so good drivers/woofers, not so good electronics ( even today some sub manufacturer IMHO don't put interest in the quality needs on the subs. That's why some of us made mods on them. ) and with almost no advise from any one. These anomalies make that many times the subs sound reproduction were of bad quality: only one note bam or boom boom and nothing more to appreciate.

The audio industry grow-up: better recordings, better quality speakers, better quality electronics and the like. The subs grow-up too but not at the same quality level than the other items and the audio magazines and audio dealers still with out support the subs subject, mainly IMHO because a very poor/small know-how about. So how the customers can think on the subs if no one speak about its advantages like a good alternative to improve the quality performance of almost any audio system? even the speaker manufacturers that build subs like Wilson, Krell, Thiel,, etc, etc, don't really promote their subs models, why? I can't be sure if it is for they do not have the know-how level or because they have it and goes against its full business, let me explain this last comment with an example:
if someone owns a WattP-8 and want to improve/up-grade the quality performance on his system through a new speakers ( normaly same manufacturer, in this case Wilson. ) almost always he/they think in the next top model: the MAXX3 instead to add subs to the WP8, this subs alternative it is not only less expensive but one that beats the MAXX3 quality performance but the manufacturer and the dealer say nothing about, never give to the customer this alternative.

There are a lot of mis-information , misunderstood and non know-how on the subs great alternative in a stereo systems. Many people are still thinking that the subs are for HTS and not to listen " serious music " ( even manufacturers like REL that have not a high-pass filter in its crossover. ). Unfortunately is sad that all these people are loosing the best an ever opportunity to really improve the quality performance in their home systems.

In this thread we can read many of the advantages adding two subs in real stereo fashion where the main one is not IMHO " only " to achieve low bass but improve the quality performance of the main speakers!, till the people understand the why's and how's on the subs subject they will continue hearing ( obviously not all. ) home systems with a " weak " leg.

Yes, IMHO everywhere ( manufacturers, reviewers, dealers. Not all. ) non know-how on the subject is the main " culprit ", of course that money or space/place's limitations have a role too.

Like everything the subs subject is an educational one, many audio people are at the low subs learning curve, sooner or latter we all will grow-up on that learning curve where the rewards are almost incredible and of paramount importance in favor of the MUSIC perception.

There are other factors that have influence but it will be too long to analyze each one even I can be wrong on what I think.

What do you think? do you want to grow-up? do you want to be better?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear pryso: Thank you to share your experiences about are really lightining.

Yes, IMHO the main advantage in the subs integration to almost any audio system is to lower the IMD making improvements like the ones you experienced.

Yes, through these seven tread pages in one way or the other the people that participate cover several subs advantages like the one you name it and you can read here something else about:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Velocityyofhue: As I posted and from my point of view and experiences the main target to add subs to your audio system ( almost any system ) is not to go deep in the bass or higher bass quantity but to improve the quality performance of your Thiels ( and achieve a lot whole better system performance. ) lowering its high IMD/THD ( intermodulation distortion/total harmonic distortion. ), this target when you achieve it makes a difference like night and day, period.

Now, your Thiel's are a very good example on the subs subject because the Thiel woofer handle a wide ( more than five octaves ) frequency range: 28-30Hz to 1Khz ( due to its first order slope crossover. ).
That woofer needs to reproduce at the same time a 40Hz frequency and a 500Hz one ( example, the reality is more complicated due that the woofer has to handle all the frequencies in its very wide range. ) where the needs to the 40Hz frequency reproduction stress ( IMD ) heavy the 500Hz frequency reproduction where this one loose its un-distorted/clean reproduction that we heard like a smeared non-transparent no precise definition, etc, etc.
I know that you like what you are hearing, well you can't imagine how good is your system till you make that the IMD in your speakers goes really lower and one of the alternatives is through the integration in true stereo fashion of two self powered subs blended seamless.

When you achieve this the Thiel's woofer will work between around 80 Hz and up lowering the IMD that clean-up all the frequency spectrum response, now that woofer will work with out the " stress " ( excursion, overhang and the like that affect seriously the whole woofer quality performance: a heavy compromise. ) in favor of overall speaker quality performance.
At the same time the whole bass response will improve its quality performance because right now that bass frequency range is handle for a dedicated ( was expressely designed for ) speaker ( the subs. ) and for a dedicated amplifiers that was expressely designed to match exactly the needs of that subs drivers.
Here you will have and wll hear the quality on the bass that you never heard in any full range speakers ( non powered ) at any price.
You not only improve the quality of the bass response but obviously you improve to in the bass quantity and in a lower/deep bass response that you will hear only when the recording demand it.

Everything change for the better: power handling because your Krell will be working in a less wider frequency range: its overall performance improve, sounstage will be a lot better too, there are so many improvements that is almost impossible to name it.
Other thing: right now the position of your speakers is a compromise between the in room bass response and the mid/high response, there is a trade-off.
When the " deep " bass liberate the Thiels then you can move it/change a little its room position to achieve a better in room mid/high frequency range response/perception and the subs will be locate too at its best in room position: best of two " worlds "!

IMHO it is worth to try it, the change is of paramount importance with several and true rewards.

It is almost useful/vain to argument against the subs with out listen/try the whole alternative.

Of course that some speaker manufacturers and/or audio dealers/reviewers can't support the subs " road " because the alternative goes against business ( $$$$ ) where the money is on sales of bigger ( more costly ) ( next model in a speaker line. ) or different speakers ( more expensive )than in two inexpensive subs that we even can buy second hand.
But even IMHO if we are wealthy enough the fact is that we can't achieve better quality performance ( everything the same or that the main speakers were decent speakers. ) with the new " big " speakers " than with the un-expensive subs alternative.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear gregadd: That system is a " impressive " cost no object alternative.

However, those Gothan's are used as a bass re-inforce " tool " where the Alexandria's works full range.

Here, the owner's system choose ( IMHO with all respect I take this system example like that an example only and not like a critic on it and not telling that my " voice " is the only and right one. ) not taking advantage on the subs whole subject ( well he is taking advantage on the bass re-inforce but with many trade-offs, one of them is that the main speakers are playing in the low bass at the same time than the subs. ).

I f I was " there " ( unfortunately I did not, a healthy " envy ". ) my choice will be for the Velodyne's DD-15/18 or the DD-1812, both have a high-pass filter that we need to liberate the Alexandria for the low bass range.

The Velodyne choice not only give me that HPF but better specs on bass frequency range and its HD is the lowest on commercial home subs: less than 0.5%, this is very important because we want a clean in room response down there and according with the HD " quality " of the main speakers.

Other advantage to separate the low bass on the Alexandria's is that those Lamm's amplifiers will perform better with out " see " that bass range.

The Alexandria's are " easy " to handle almost for any amplifier SS/tube due to its very high efficiency ( 95db. ), Wilson say that you can start with amplifiers that put at least 7 watts but IMHO and due to its low impedance ( 3 ohms. ) and complex electrical impedance curve this speaker is not an " easy " one and its needs ( like the music needs specially on transients. ) are demanding to a matched amplifier ( not almost any. ) to show its best and great quality performance.

The sub's integration in true stereo fashion IMHO can help to improve the quality performance of the Alexandria/Lamm combo.
Of course that I can be wrong but this is what I think about and what I do with that system.

Gregadd, the audio/music home sound reproduction is a very complex one if we want to achieve a near " perfect " quality performance. The audio chain has many links and the relationship between those links are almost infinite.

IMHO each of those links has its own learning curve where we have to understand the differents steps in that learning curve to take its advantages and try to eliminate its dis-advantages. This link/chain " learning curve " know-how is one of the keys to our " audio dream " sound reproduction.

The sub's subject is one of those links where many of us are at the begin/start of the sub's learning curve, we need to grow-up ( like in other audio link's learning curves. ) learning with true experiences about, it is very difficult to learn if we don't " live "/feel with experiences on the subject.

IMHO as we grow-up on each audio link " learning curve " as better ( not only different but better. ) quality performance will show our home audio system.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jim: THis Legay is a very nice approach/design that address the IMD subject between other things.

Downside?, well nothing is perfect: if I was Legacy I will make those bass drivers self powered with a dedicate amplifier that match exactly the drivers needs and take care in deep about isolation between those bass drivers and the whole speaker.

I never have the opportunity to hear the speaker but seems very good and has very good reviews.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

The sub's alternative IMHO is a tremendous " tool " to improve almost any home audio system quality performance that use tube amplifiers.

Due to tube technology characteristics and the fact that in a sub's system the amplifier does not " see " bass frequency range this improve the tube amplifier overall " power " in the remaining frequency range ( main speakers ) and permit that this un-stressed tube amplifier performs and match better to the main speakers.
The quality improvement is really significant and IMHO this " road " is a must to go specially when we are using tube amplifiers, I can't imagine a better system up-grade everything the same.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gregadd: No fight, I respect that great system owner: it is only that maybe there is a tiny " room " to improve. Always is a temptation try to help, no critic at all.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gmorris: As you point out a different sub's integration with different trade-offs ( advantages/dis-advantages ).

I prefer to lower the IMD on the main speakers in favor of an improve in the quality performance on the main speakers and to handle the low bass with a dedicated speaker ( sub s) that was designed in specific to that frequency range along its self-powered amplifier.
IMHO no full range passive speaker ( like the great Alxandria's. ) can show/even the quality performance in the bass range like a dedicated self powered sub, the right sub and at the same time I don't know any amplifier ( SS/tube/hybrid. ) that can even the matching between the driver ( woofer ) and the amplifier in the sub's that was designed to the specific needs of that woofer for that specific frequency bass range, synergy is the name of the game.

The key is the quality of the crossover that in Velodyne, Revel, and the like are very " decent ".
The ideal " key " is to make directly the crossover high-pass filter at the main ( internally ) speaker amplifier(s) and if you can't do it then through the sub's own crossover.

The choice of the sub's model is a critical subject, not all the sub's are the same and not all the sub's have the same quality performance and the same quality " self " electronics specially its crossover.

I prefer too the use of the same amplifier in the main speakers, the right amplifier.

When we use two different amplifiers ( like in your system ) IMHO we have two different performances due to the diferences between these two amplifiers: different output impedance, different frequency response, different THD, different gain, different slew rate, different colorations,...different noise level,....different.....diferent..., etc, etc, the only and almost the one similarity between both units is its name: amplifier.
I know that you like it and this is the important factor because is you who are living each day with that system.

I respect your approach, however the targets and its quality level that you achieve are totally different from the targets and quality levels that we achieve trough the alternative that I support.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gregadd: From the planar speakers the Maggies are one that I like it, I had the opportunity to heard he 3.6 in my system ( years ago ) due that the dealer here was a close friend of mine and in a friend's system the 20.1, very good ones.

Yes, certainly I have " anomalies " in the frequency response spectrum on my speakers/room, however I can tell you that our ears ( yours, mine and everyone. ) along our know-how/experience are very good, sensitive and discriminate tools on sound reproduction perception.

Almost all different sub's approaches are valid , this depend of what targets do you want to achieve and what quality level do you prefer.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gregadd: Yes the Aerial is very good option. Its price was a little to much for me but its quality performance is really good.

MK the designer/owner of Aerial was/is the one that made the design of my ADS main speakers.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Pryso: Yes, I agree with you: not really big.

This is the real " magic " of sub's alternative: it does not matters ( almost ) on the room because we are talking in the subs alternative mainly about low bass quality more than quantity.

In my experience two sub's always perform better than one in a room, two sub's makes the response be smoother.

Jloveys and Halcro point out that the ideal number is four sub's and there is the link to a scientific studies about made by Harman International elsewhere in this thread. Anyway the best way to go is when you listen it in your own system: you can't believe what you are hearing and the huge improvement in the quality system performance.

Btw, Dgob ( He posted in this thread ) has a very small room and he integrate two sub's in true stereo fashion with very good results too.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Pryso: The range ( high/low )i the IMD depends mainly on the quality of the woofer driver and how low goes on the bass ( deep bass ).

Normally if the speaker croosover is set at 160hz to the mid-bass driver seems to me that that bass woofer could goes at least to the mid twenties.
The frequencies below 45-50Hz needs a biger woofer excursions that 50hz-up, these biger excursions are the main " culprit " ( not the only ) that the IMD goes high, so if you liberate this woofer from 50Hz down you will have improvement/benefits for lowering the IMD in the main speakers and a better main amplifier performance ( btw, we have to think that because a speaker does not have response, say, at 25Hz this does not means that the amplifier is not working in that frequency and below it. ) and obviously a better quality low bass performance through the dedicated subwoofers.
In this ( yours ) example the high-pass could be at 50-55HZ and the low-pass ( sub's ) at 80Hz, this depend if the filters are first, second or third order. So almost always we can have benefits through the sub's integration with passive main speakers.

As always the differences and improvements/benefits are system dependent and there are no precise " rules " on the subject other than " test and error ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear pryso: IMHO I think that there are some non know-how on the critical importance for the low bass reproduction.

Through the years I heard several full range speakers ( that goes down to 20Hz. ) including mines. In the last year I heard Wilson ( MAXX/Alexandria ), Acapella Triorlon, MBL 101, Dynaudio Temptation, Soundlab and Avalon " something " ( I can remember the model. ) etc, etc.
All very good speakers and if you never had/have the experience/opportunity to hear/heard a good powered subs you can/could think that any of those speakers is the only " thing " you need on the bass subject, all of them are good performers in the low bass but none has the quality level performance of a good powered sub.

You can say: so what? these speakers are great ones and we don't need anything else.

For me ( I can be wrong ) what define/makes the difference between ( talking about speker performance ) good speaker performance and very good/excellent one is its quality performance at both frequency extremes and for these frequency ranges the low bass maybe is the more critical because is the one that contribute the more to " pollute " the whole speaker performance. This is not something that someone tell me, this is my experiences about.

So IMHO till we have the right quality bass response by our each one speaker system we can't speak that we have a very good/excellent quality performance audio system.
Of course that every frequency range is important to the quality performance but I think that the low bass range is the one that can do more for the " bad ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Pryso: The big Evolution Acoustic speakers are a good example of a full range design that does not needs external powered sub's because things are that the Evolution speaker design already have it and integrated to the speaker.

This Evolution speaker design is a good example where the designers take in count the critical importance of the low bass subject and the need that that bass range will be handled by a dedicated woofer/amplifier ( like the sub's. )

I can't say for sure the croosover frequency Evolution's woofers that handle the " sub " bass but maybe lower than 80Hz or maybe the owner can choose it.

Perhaps M. Levigne could share this info with us and can give us his thoughts/experiences on the sub's/low bass whole subject, could you Mike?, thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Drummermitchel: Nice to see that your sub's stereo integration was/is sucessful, congratulations.

Like you say we have to " listen and be patient " to achieve good results.
You even still have " land " to make a little change try it and listen for an improvement or not: to use the high-pass on your DD ones to liberate ( lowering the IMD on the main speakers ) your Revel's from low bass. You can do it and see what happen.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Pryso: I want to add ( a little late!. ) that even if the main speakers cross-over is at 160hz like you say and other benefits that the ones I posted earlier one advantage using separate self powered subs is that that separate subs can more easy be integrated on the room due that you can move it anywhere you need where in a full range speaker you can't because the woofer driver is an integrated part of the speaker and when you move the " whole " speaker to " tame " the bass response you " alter " too the full frequency speaker response .

In other side when you have separate self powered subs ( in true stereo fashion conection. ) using an external electronic crossover always your main amplifier will be liberate it for the low/deep bass response/handling and this means thet that main amplifier will perform better than full range, everything in benefit of an improvement in overall quality audio system performance.

Pryso from my experiences IMHO it is very very hard to beat a satelite/subs main system ( I support/recomended this kind of approach. ) against a non powered/passive non-separate full range speaker and even a self powered non-separate system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Mapman: +++++ " One of the things the speaker SYSTEM needs to do is cover the low frequencies to the same suitable extent as the other frequencies. " +++++

certainly that is a " must " to have. Not an easy task but the effort to achieve it is worth on its rewards.
The subs integration has to be: seamless.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear TbG: The ST integration in a system could be a " revelation " too because we are not waiting ( between other ST advantages ) that adding ST in our system the bass frequency range ( in especial. ) improves its quality performance just like the subs integration enhance the high frequency range.

I'm using the Tannoy ST with success. You can choose to cross at: 14khz-16khz and 18khz with a gain choosing between 88db to 95db.

I heard the Townshend but I prefer Tannoy's.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Tbg: In my system I really like ST. I bought the Tannoys because made a better match to my speakers but I like too the Muratas even that I never had the opportunity to heard it.

Using the ST gives to my system a quality performance improve at both frequency extremes.

Btw, the Tannoys " only " goes to 60khz not 100khz like the Muratas or Townshend, but works for me.

Certainly the ST integration in a speaker system is a lot easy than subs integration and because the rewards with both items IMHO are worth to try it.

I think that the " problem " with the subwoofers integration in a passive speaker system is the very low knowledge of the people and the same for STs.

Unfortunatelly ( like many other things. ) the AHEE already maintained the subs subject between " dense clouds " and that's why our poor understanding about and understanding of the subs huge advantages ( in favor of MUSIC. ) in a two music stereo system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Tbg: Btw, AHEE means: Audio High End Establishment.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Vuluongchitam: IMHO your Studio 40 are good speakers and IMHO too it is on the subwoofer side where you have a " trouble ".

First, for listen music I don't recommend one subwoofer ( for very good reasons that you can read in this thread. ) but two units. Paradigm has very good options that can blend with your speakers better than the JBL but the word " blend " is the main subject here.

I take almost a year to stay where I'm today on the subwoofers overall subject inside my system, not an easy task where we not only need patience but good know-how about music and how music sounds " out there " ( live ).
Your speakers are " ideal " to be mated with subs: great combination if you take your time.

Please read what ( and other posts related. ) I posted in this thread that can put some " light " to you on the subject:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&31&4#31

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Stringreen: Harman/JBL people made several studies about the " ideal " number of subwoofers for a smooth response and high bass quality, here is the link where one of their conclusions was that four subwoofers are the " number " but two subs are very good too:

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

and here what Vandersteen has to say about:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&84&4#84

Btw, Johnnyb53: maybe there is no " fast/slow " subs, please read this:

http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Johnnyb53: I think that the people can read the link and " form " their opinion about.

I agree with some of the points on that article. Sometimes is good to read 2-3 times articles like this one.

I tested along my audio distributors friends several times different subs as stand alone units and I can tell you that that fast/slow subs can't easy to detect.

The " perfect " integration in stereo fashion of subs to satelite speakers are a must and this can be achieved with fast/slow subs in the same system.
A stand alone sub sounds makes no music and even makes no sense when you heard. The relationship between the subs frequency response performance with/inside the satelite speakers is what it counts.

Anyway, the article opens a sligthly way of thinking on that subject.

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Stringreen: This is another Harman white papers on subs:

http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20111112/13680.pdf

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear slaw: My advise through this thread that comes from my first hand experiences is that the signal from the preamp must goes directly to the subs and directly to the main amp or amps.
We want the same kind/graded of signal in both sides: subs and main speakers.

If the signal from the amp outputs goes to the subs this signal is diferent and with higher degradation.
You said : """  Then the amp's character has more of a role to the subs """, well this is not what I want it. What I want it is to have on both sides the same graded signal.

In my system I run the preamp signal directly to the subs and directly to the amps and the high-pass crossover happens inside the input circuit in my amps that are modified for that can happens. I don't use the crossover in the subs to do it or any after market crossover .

Obviously you can try what you want or what your system permits and through your listening tests  decide what  works better in your system to achieve your self music/sound priorities/targets.

Btw, which speakers do you own?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: When we are for sure that there is nothing more to learn in any specific audio subject then suddenly we discover something else to improve the quality MUSIC/sound reproduction of our room-audio system.

I untouched my two Velodynes for years but looking for something else in my place I found out |an electrical line power regulator that I bougth so many years that I can't remember when. This same item has filters to reduce line noise and RFI/EM too, I think noise is reduced by 80-100 db.

I learned through the AHEE that it's not convenient to use that kind of power line " conditioners " with amplifiers and as a fact I never did it, I try it but in those times I can't detect improvements when in use.

Maybe I'm the only audiophile that did not do it what I explain next:

Well, I  connected both subwoofers to that device and I was totally unprepared for the HUGE and OUTSTANDING improvement in every single part of the frequency range of my whole audio system and I can tell you with all my humble " body " that the quality level I have is really excellent .

Believe me, I have no words to express it in the rigth way because for me is a totally NEW EXPERIENCE! ! !  after 40+ years to love MUSIC/sound reproduction at home.

I'm still trying to assimilate the overall improvements and I will posts on that.

In the mean time your experiences you already had are welcomed.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: First thing I can tell is that that old " warning " against line regulators with amps ( at least in my case ) is totally untrue, there is no single power limitations I can detect about.

I did it my usual whole tests wide/deep process with outstanding results.

Througth that process between other test LP tracks exist two extremely demanding bass range recordings: Telar 1812 and the RR Dafos. Both demanding not only for the speakers system or amps but everywhere from the cartridge to the room where is the audio system.

I really pushed my system with the track: Gates of Dafo's and obviously with the cannon shots in the Telarc 1812 looking for any single sign of power limitations, clipping or quality degradation at very high SPLs: 98 db at seat position with peaks over 107 dbs. It never " collapsed " in any way, everything in focus with extreme detail and resolution.

So, in my case that " warning " is a myth. Rigth now I'm waiting for other two 2.8 watts regulators to connect my monoblocks there. I have to say that I don't know what could happen when test it because my amps are fully regulated input to output. We will see.

Now and returning to the new Velodyne experiences, what am I listening through?:

- first and listening at my normal SPL this SPL " goes down ", in reality does not gone down but this is exactly what my ears and body " feels ". I know that SPL did not gone lower because I measured.

- for my " whole body " can again to feel the same SPLs than before I need to increment around 3 dbs the attenuator/volume in the Phonolinepreamp. However and after the time I just return to the past attenuator position, I don't need to do nothing about but stay there.

- in the whole bass range disappears its false bloom reproduction, false bass power feelings that is not in the recordings, notes has a never experienced clarity/resolution that today I can say are more " transparent " and with an outstanding separation in between. Yes, I'm discovering each single of my LPs ( and I say that not as the normal " cliché " some audiophiles or reviewers tell us. It's literally. ), it does not matters which one or kind of music.

- when I was feeling that I losted that " bass power "/bloom and the like what I did it was to increment the volume in the Velodynes and even that at the begining I thougth was rigth latter on I decided that was not and that I don't need to adjust the subwoofers volume but to stay as in the past.

- all those clarity, transparency and very high resolution in the bass range frequency mmade and makes that the other frequency extreme really shines as never before and yes discovering " new sounds " in the very well know recordings I have and that ow I know I really did not know so well as I imagine.

- now that both frequency extremes are THERE the mid range is too better than ever and this fact ( at least for me. ) confirm what I  was and am telling from many years now: that music at home does not belongs at the midrange frequency range but at both frequency extreme ranges that are the music frame in home reproduction.

As better both frequency extremes as better not only the mid range quality level but the overall listening experiences. Mid range depends on those frequency ranges where these frequency ranges does not depends on the mid-range.

- one part of the 1812 whole track is when we can listen the Carrillon that with its multiple bells diferent tones/harmonics and all at the same time is just imposible to identify each single of that Carrillon sounds.
Well, that was till now because I'm hearing from the very first time the real glorious of that Carrillon sounds that I never did it in any single audio system I experienced trhough my audio life ! ! !, incredible experience for say the least.



Even that some people make jokes or laugh of me ( some of you that are reading this post. ) I touted and tout, posted and post ( elsewhere ) for several years that quality level differences between different home audio systems belongs to each audio system/room DISTORTIONS LEVELS  and nothing more.

In the last times my quest was and is to make any system single change with the main target to achieve lower distortion levels and this time  ( fortunatelly. ) that " move " was and is rith on: LOWERING DISTORTION LEVELS and this fact means MORE MUSIC enjoyment.

Rigth now with that simple " move " I'm listening less to the system room/venue and more into the RECORDING. Additional what is happening/listening ( till today ) confirm not only the other changes I di it in my system in other years but what I posted in diferent audio subjects here and in other forums.

Btw, other " myth " that falls ( for me. ) is that theory that odd harmonics are so irritating to our ears and this is ( for me ) totally untrue because third or fifth bass range harmonics are pleaseant ones like the second ones and today more clear than ever and MUSIC is " harmonics ". Problem, as always, are those system distortion levels.


Yes, all pasive systems needs a pair of active subwoofers wired in true stereo fashion.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

A mistake: not 2.8 watts but 2.8 Kwatts regulators.

R.

Dear @stringreen : According scientific studies four subs are optimal in a home audio system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: There are at least to things to share with you that I forgot:

- many people that own active subwoofers in their stereo audio systems speak on that thunderous bass that they don't have it before the subs in their systems and some of them speak to about that the room or diferent home items  in the room " shake/rattle " with their subs. Some like to talk about.

Well, I have not that shake/rattle or thunderous sound/reproduction in my system any more.
That kind of " events " are caused by high distortions in that frequency range but does not comes in the recordings and if some are experienced that they have an audio reproduction problem and certainly very low quality level on what are listening, it does not matters if they all are satisfied.

- the other issue I forgot is that inside my whole tests process exist the digital/CD tests that with out it any analog tests process is totally incomplete.

Testing bass range nothing can compare with the digital alternative that when with good recordings is way superior to analog and not only this but if we want to know how bass range must sound we must to listen to CDs and learn about.
I have several digital tracks that I always use trhough that whole tests evaluation's process and not only for the bass range but in this precise bass subject two of the recordings I use are: The thin red line and Gladiator ( I own " hundreds " of excellent CD that can show me what I'm looking for. ) that I know really good and what I can tell you is that the pristine, crystaline and precise definition and extremely high resolution is just: ASTONISHING.

The good " news " is that not only in the bass range but in the overall frequency ranges ! ! ! !


Thunderous bass does not comes in the recordings, it's generated on purpose by. In a home system comes for very high distortions in more than one system link and for the room interactions with.

Thunderous bass exist only in the nature through: sound on the Niagara falls or a thunder.

My take is that if we don't improve the quality level of each one bass range system/room reproduction it does not matters what we can do in the other frequency ranges our quality system levels will stay in average status.

I think all of us must have to take care more deeply on that system/room bass range reproduction !!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100  : The corrupted AHEE where like it or not all audiophiles are inside teached us stay away of subwoofers in a home stereo audio system.

The audiophiles were educated in that way and even today several of them are sticky to that information.

Not only that but the name JBL was a forbidden one by that same corrupted AHEE.

Well several years ago was precisely at JBL where took one of those scientific studies on the precise convenience to install multiple subwoofers in " domestic " enviroments and its full non-refutable advantages.
These people not only make the mathematics modeling of that subs subject but they tested LIVE at its unique audio research installations/facilities.

As a part of that AHEE I never thougth or passed for my mind to install subwoofers in my home system, so I just let it gone till my " curiosity " ( many years ago too. ) to think and test " out of the box " made it that I bougth two Sweden active Audio Pro 10" subwoofers that because my very high ignorance level on the subs subject did not worked in the rigth way.

Anyway, latter on I insisted on the subject and installed my today active subwoofers that I took around one year for been totally room/system integrated with out room treatment or equalization of any kind.
In the mean time and before I sold those two Audio Pro I connected it along the Velodynes and again because my high ignorance levels the Audio Pro gone but I remember that in one of my several tests I put the Audio Pro at both sides of my seat position ( very near. ) and I could not detected its reproduction sound but was functioning onn.

Time latter and through my Velodyne's adventure I learned that the myth that over 30-40hz the bass has directionality comes down totally falls that myth because even  at 80-90 hz you can't detect it if exist good system integration.

For years in this and other threads, even in my latest posts here, I touted that the more critical an important home system frequency range is the bass one that with out a true high quality performance in that range what we are hearing is the system room with a really " poor " quality level performance even on system in the 300K prices.

I just can remember an Agoner that a few weeks ago I send him an email trying to help in some ways for his system truly shines: he owns  a very high price beautiful system with Magico speakers I think the 3 or 5 model and what I email to him was the integration of two subwoofers in his system.
I think that because that very high price on his system and because the ignorance level we all have because that corrupted AHEE he never gave me any single answer not even: thank's but NO.

That's why we audiophiles just do not grow up even that we think we are growing up ! ! !


I notice in the past your today subs kind of set up and yes I know exactly what yoi mean and enjoy and what those gentlemans really know on the overall subject. Thank's to share with all of us here.

If you note no one else but @stringreen  and you posted and I wondering if each one of aall those Agoner's ignorance levels on the bass management subject is so high that has nothing to share, comment or ask ! ! !
Always posted and post here that every single day is a learning one for me that always am open to all audio experiences from other gentlemans.

Now and ccoming back with that " thunderous " kind of sound in home audio systems:

I already said thet all comes from very high distortions that only happens in home audio systems. Let me explain my take here:

maybe some peole other than me already experienced the " fall " of a live thunder at near field from us. What can we remember about other that the very high SPL of the sound ( " fundamental " notes " ) ?: NO SINGLE VIBRATION/DISTORTIONS.

What if in the same example/experience we are at 200 m.?:

thatwe feel those vibrations/distortions/resonances all over our body. From where are coming in this example?:

it came from the enviroment that's " exited " by those fundamental/harmonic notes and that were " builded " through the " distance ".

Here the " distance " is our each one ROOM and it does not matters how we make the room treatment or equalization never really disappears and can't disappears because the bass range system ( not room. ) reproduction has " poor " quality levels.
This " poor " quality levels comes from each and all single link in the system chain. 

 Obviously than in the analog alternative is way " poor " than in the digital one and it does not matters what you think in this digital subject.

All analog lovers ( like me ) always try to have the best front end with distortions at minimum, our main concern belongs " there " and we don't take with the same " passion " the other links and especially electronics ones.

Why I mentioned electronics? because all the information is " processed " down there and we need at least that those electronics ( Phono line preamp, phono stage, line preamp or amps. ) where designed to performs from 1 hz to over 200 khz and with almost negible distortion/noise levels and that that frequency range be really flat. This must be not only our targets but the target of electronics manufacturers. Yes, additional must be a very good design and with high quality design excecution.

We can think that any kind of electronics can do it but not really. Of course thatalmost any item can have those characteristics with huge deviations on the freqency range.

Which are the precise and rigth electronic alternative we all have on " hand " to use it any time we want it?:

ONLY ONE alternative: SOLID SATE DESIGNS.

For the bass range be reproduced in precise way we need SS electronics, tube alternative is for anything you want but to handle the bass range that is where is the home system foundation.
No, hybrid designs does not meet the targets because it can't do it, is a limitation of the tube technology.

We have to remember here that what we want is not to hear/listen/enjoy the ROOM but the recording.
@lewm , you can't do nothing about and don't be angry with me again for that tube subject.

I can prove to any one what I posted here even to electronics tube designers that I respect for they shared their knowledge level on their designs. Please don't forgeret that I used for many years tube electronics and I'm not against tubes but in favor of MUSIC and what's in the recording.

There is a MoFi old recording name it: The Power and Majesty that it's in my personal evaluation tests/tracks process and is really a bass management and its meaning on almost all I posted here and this recording can tell you if our system is performing with high or poor quality level: if you know what to looking for.

Same with the several CDs tracks I use in my evaluation home  systems process: to know what to look for. 


Btw, already arrived my two 2.8 kwatts regulators. I'm with some " doubts " if it will works because my amps are fully regulated. I will connect it in my system after take a look inside the units and if I can make some tweaks down there.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : You brougth here a serious, for its importance, bass management subject and this is the way subwoofers are designed or loading cabinet: ported/reflex/transmision line, sealed-acoustic suspension, isobarik and other that escape to my mind.
Where you decided to go with transmision line loading your subs in the Beveridge room.

The best experiences I had and have are with sealed units: isobarik Linn ( the Sara model in between. ) design, my ADS acoustic suspension/sealed and Velodyne subs.

The Linn Isobarik that I heard was really really good ( very low distortions. ) in the bass frequency range even with not to big speaker cabinets/box.
I remember heard the IMF and TDL transmision line speaker designs and like it a lot but that " laberynth/tunneling design at the end is open, yes it has lower distortion than a reflex or other vented designs and as the Isobarik with not big cabinets/boxes where my ADS to achieve its bass quality and efficiency needs a big box and very special design to go low on distortion levels.

I don’t doubt that your subs performs good but I’m sure it can’t performs better than the true bass expertes design on Velodyne and not only because I own it or because are sealed but because I made ( as I posted in this thread ) a deep investigation over the subs market and no one can compete ( even today ) with Velodyne. Remember that I’m talking here about quality bass reproduction and not bass quantity of the same.

Yes, there are more expensive units or best looking ones or that goes lower than Velodyne like JL , Rel ( only to name two of many out there. ) and others but no one can " live " not even near the Velodyne when we are talking of DIDTORTION LEVELS.

I put an example: while the JL subs performs with over 6% of THD at 20hz at 110 dbs on SPL Velodynes performs at only 0.5% ! ! thank’s that the unit is monitoring the woofer excursion over 16k times each second.

I know for sure that after my Velodynes be connected through those electrical regulators that DISTORTION LEVELS goes even lower and this is the main subject here: QUALITY LEVEL.


Btw, last nigth I really pushed my Velodynes through recordings that are not specific because its bass range stand alone but because use synthetizers between other instruments including full symphonic orchestras.
What I want to achieve is if at some SPL I can have in my listening room or outside it some kind of rattle in diferent things that are in that living room.

So, I push it at very high SPL that I measured at my seat position as : 105 db with peaks over 112 dbs ( even I " closed " my ears at this volume. ) and no single rattle, glass resonances or rare vibations or that something collapsed not even the soundstage and focus. !!!!

That is unbeliable for any one ( nas I said: distortions gone really lower ! ! !. ) but me that experienced it and this tell me that I’m in a new audio era/century/reborn.

@lewm till you can achieve that experience in your system you can’t know how much you ( everyone. ) are losting of MUSIC as I did it for more than 40+ audio years mand that audio losted years was thanks to that AHEE.




Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 : For what I read from you we owns very different systems with different targets, mine is only to enjoy MUSIC and " mainly through the analog alternative that with so many troubles, limitations and disadvantages ( very well know ones. ) made it for me a huge almost titanic constant system " figth " trying to achieve the best quality level performance.
I’m not a bass’s lover but for years I learned and knew its main and critical importance to achieve that target and you know what?: I was and am not wrong in this main audio subject.

As I said I took along a complete year to achieve the precise integration of my Velodynes to my room/system with out room treatment or equalization about.

I know that with your bass array alternative i took to you 5 hours, good. I can’t discuss if your bass management room/sytem handling is better than mine for stereo MUSIC reproduction.

If you look to my virtual system, my subs position is way unorthodox for say the least: are  in front of my great ADS speakers viewing in between with the driver looking each to other Velodyne.

Btw, I have the room to have that four bass array units but before I can think on that maybe I will try what I learned from that JBL scientific studies that 3 subs are better than 2 and 4 units the " ideal " one.

I really appreciated your first time valuable contribution in this thread that try to cover perhaps the more unknowed audio main subject ever. Unknowed not only by we mere " mortal " audiophiles but for proffesional reviewer, manufacturers, designers and audio retailers/distributors.

Ignorance level is the name of the game in this case.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 : Sorry, my english is to bad but as you said I think you have the whole " idea ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: I already connected my main monoblok amps to each one electrical power regulators I bougth.

I decided to buy it after I discovery the huge ( no words to explain it. ) improvement inj the quality level performance of my Velodyne’s.
I had several doubts that really could be a real improvement and not only a diferent kind of sound because my 20.6s are fully regulated input to output.

So why external electrical power regulators for?, I have no precise explanation why I bougth it even the amps kind of design other that " curiosity " and after connected and gave a deep listening I would like to know what is happening. Let me explain it for you can give an opinion or share similar experiences:


for years my amps were connected directly from the inside electrical power amp input through my 30A electrical dedicated line power box, no single connector in between. When I did it the improvement was inmediatly, connectors even here and even top ones degrade the quality system level performance. Why?, I don’t know for sure.

Before the amps wre connected to the electrical line regulators I made it some usually ( for me. ) tweaks: changed its stock power cable by passing all connectors all from inside input to the line power box.

What happened when I switch-on the system and started to listen through my personal test evaluation process?:

something unexpected for me and it happened and still does just from the very first MUSIC " note " in the LP tracks and CD ones:

first thing I was aware is that my system already very low noise gone not even lower but now exist NO noise floor level. I just can’t detect it.

That " simple " fact makes several things in my MUSIC everyday listening sessions. When you hear my today system performance, believe or not, you can think you are enjoying MUSIC in " wonderland ". Like me you can’t believe it till you can have this kind of unique experiences.

It’s not only that no-noise floor characteristic but if with the experiences I shared here with my subwoofers the ROOM interaction goes down at this moment/time that same ROOM just gone. I can’t explain it in other way.

I’m feel like a Symphonic Director’s Orchestra at his stage position whre exist only HE and the near field sources/instruments ! ! ! !

That sesation can be understand it only if you been listening in a true Music Hall at that position that as I posted somewhere in this forum I been there twice.

In that listening position there is no ROOM/venue but direct MUSIC and t’s almost here where the recording microphones are seated.

That’s why I said : listen to the recording and not your ROOM that’s what you are doing rigth now in the same way I did it.

Room treatments?, the best room is NO ROOM.

I think I already posted here: for me the audio/MUSIC hobby just begin with and I’m discovering so many things that I really can’t assimilated and I can’t be sure about explanations yet.

One thing is sure: I have to re-set the whole tonearm/cartridge set up that I was thinking was fine when was wrong ! !, go figure.
This time the word ACCURACY have a true and real meaning on that subject and this time more than ever the MINT LP protractor has its real necessity.
Now there is no " land " where any minimum mistake can hide it and not only in the whole system performance but today I’m aware of recording errors and the already analog limitations goes higher too or at least more real than ever and my many years touted digital alternative shows its several advantages at a higher levels.

How can be that my so hard work on system set up been plain wrong for so many years?
I think because the ignorance levels we have that impede to grow up and stay sticky with what we thougth is " great " when in reality is not that way.

WHAT A KIND OF AUDIO LESSONS and I’m fortunate to discovery all those and many things to come trhough my listening times.

Yes, I only want to listen MUSIC as never before and we will see what I can share over time.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 : """  1. The importance of a low noise floor not only in presenting music recordings accurately, with more easily heard details and enjoyably but also because it enables the affects of small changes .... to be more clearly heard due to this increased accuracy, neutrality and audible details.  ""

I don't know other audiophiles but me when read something about audio room/system noise floor never had the true significant meaning like this time like these " today " unique experiences.

It's obvious that all those twecks we did and do it with our each one system has as a target to improve its quality level performance and even if we do not took or take its importance every time we improve ( in any way. ) the quality level of the room/system what we did it was and is lowering distortion levels that improve /lower the room/system NOISE FLOOR but this time is the very first time I'm really aware of this system/room characteristic and its crucial/critical importance to enjoy at maximum the listen recording experiences.
For me the improved diferences were " an order of magnitud ": outstanding!

That is a real no-return path/road and a must to achieve in any audio room/system.

Perhaps, many of us think we already have it but perhaps as me we don't have it.



"""  2. The importance of good bass response in not only extending the frequency response lower for a more realistic experience but also because of the affect that good bass response has on improving a system's mid-range/treble performance .... """


as I posted the bass range is the foundation of MUSIC and to enjoy in our audio room/system we need first that that audio system be a full range one, not from 28-30hz and up but true full range ( even a little lower than 20 hz. ). With out that " full range " characteristics we just can't listen adequatly the MUSIC/LP/CD overall experience. This is a necessity not something that we could wish and it does not matters what kind or price level has the audio system: if it does not has the " full range " factor then it be short of and the MUSIC experiences are totally incomplete for say the least.

As you said the importance of good bass response, (I can add: good FULL bass response, is not precisely for extended bass frequency only but for the midrange/treble really shines too. I explain it in this thread here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058  

yes LIGTHS ON, we left the darkness! We must try it and please forgeret about that: " I have no space/land/room " for two subwoofers because this is only one way to say: " I don't do it  because I don't think is an improvement in my already good quality level performance I have " .
That kind of way of thinking only makes we are loosing the real MUSIC meaning enjoy.

I can tell you and all audiophiles that no single tweack kind of changes we can do in our room/system can gives us the full rewards as the rigth bass management achievement along that lower NOISE FLOOR.


Btw, was so impressive what the electrical line regulators did it in my audio room/system that I tested through my bedroom 4K TV with outstanding  results too. It's like instead of 4K resolution the TV pictures/images been " 16K ( that does not exist. ). Of course I already bougth a 1K regulator that's the one rigth now I'm using with.

Regards and enioy the music,
R.

Dear friends: STOP THE PRESS and read before:

all my audio system links including the speakers/subwoofers ( even the speaker's crossover inductors. ) are wired or rewired internally with silver wire but my Phonolinepreamp because has no single internal wire through its design, the system interconnect cables are from silver too.

Well, two days ago that I opened one of my elctrical line regulators/conditioners I have to change two short internal wires/cables ( 15cm. ) and the only ones at hand were KCAG silver by Kimber Kable.

After that I just seated to listen MUSIC and " something " happened that has no explanation and that was totally unexpected because the cable I changed was a necessity more than to achieve a real improvement but it happens ! ! ! ! 

Then and due that I still have some KCAG cables I use it instead my after market power cords in my Phonolinepreamp and fenomenal THINGS followed happening ! ! ! ! 

Was so outstanding that I already ordered more KCAG to change all my system power cables.

The improvements were to many that can resume in two main ones and what these two represnet on the overall quality performance level in any audio system:

- NOISE FLOOR REDUCTION and

_  LESS ROOM INTERACTION with higher system electronic/speaker headroom levels.

Astonishing, is it?  ! ! !


Lesson: we need SILVER wires in the electrical power system cables.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: First time I used KK 4TC/8TC cooper braided speaker cable for electrical line power cables in my electronics and especially with amplifiers I use it in shot gun configuration, this is that each single 8TC cable for the positive and other complete 8TC for N.

This is very important issue and is how I'm wiring with pure SILVER today all the system electrical line power cables everywhere.

Yes, it's a little expensive but IMHO nothing can wive us so outstanding rewards as this system tweack along the line regulators.

SILVER is the name of the game in this particular audio subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 :  """  You achieved accuracy, neutrality and a low noise floor via component selection and your regulators.  I achieved this mainly through a change from a class A/B amp to a pair of class D mono-blocks.  I believe my mono-blocks have built in regulators that conditions the electricity prior to introduction into the amp's input stage. """

well, my ML monoblocks are fully regulated input to output and I can hear the improvement of my today regulated electrical lines. So, you could try/test it.


"""  You have achieved good low bass in your system by fine tuning the positioning of your 2 Velodyne subs over a period of years and I achieved it through the use of the 4 sub Audio Kinesis distributed bass array system following their progressive setup procedure.  

     The important thing is that, through slightly different means, we've both achieved good  bass response in our rooms. """


When I bougth my Velodynesmy target was to have a thigt er and more precise low bass end with lower overhang than my main speakers but over the time and even that I have it my personal finding in those times was that existed not an additional benefit in the system subs integration but a main benefits even more important than the low bass stand alone subject and that main benefit/target was and is explained in that link that I post here again. This is for me my real discovery because in those times I was unaware of the JBL or Geedes multiple subs white papers/options and certainly not what you posted here and are using at your place:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058 


Years latter I have a dialogue/discussion with Mr. Geedes in other forum from where I was banned ( people are not prepared for me. ).
Well, I shared that link experiences but he did not cares about, he only talks on for what him was the main target: low bass.

I think that to have a reall good  system bass managemnt through subs is an " additional " benefit to what I'm talking about.

Obviously that today things changed for the better till not only that noise floor or accuracy but the must important issue for me is that when BASS System MANAGEMENT is rigth then there is no need of almost any room treatment because ROOM DISAPPEARS ! ! !  and this is the AMAZING and new experience for every one ( like you. ) that experiment/try with.

As you can see almost no one of the regulars in this forum posted in the last weeks in this thread and this fact speaks for it self.

I can remember audiophiles excuses to not try the subs experiences, everyt kind of excuses and I remember very clear this one with Avalon speakers ( I remember this same kind of excuse with other audiophiles and diferent speakers. ):

" I don't want to use the high pass crossover my Avalons in a frequency range where its shines. """, but something like this was the same with a Magico owner that has problems with these speakers. people just don't want to grow up and prefers stay in his " confort chair ". Even my cvlose friend Guillermo who owns top Soundlabs gave me similar answer years ago but here today are using a pair of subs with that great Soundlabs he owns!.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 :  I was trying to find out information of what tipycal level of THD has a bass/subwoofers configuration as the one you have but it does not exist something about.

Do you have that information or a link with?

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 : I think that that information does not exist for a specific room/system.

In the old JBL papers the main subject is a room evn bass: no problems by standing waves, almost flat bass frequency range and the like but never gave any THD information and this for me is a critical issue.

Room does not disappears only because bass management is rigth but only is the bass and overall syatem distortion in the room is really low.

That's why I ask about.

It's really " curious " that when we talk about manufacturers of subwoofers for home stereo systems no one gives the THD of their models and I know this because I call/email almost all of them and no one return with that information.

Velodyne 15/18 has only 0.5% THD at 20hz at 120db. This sole figure is just IMPRESSIVE by any standard.

By comparison the touted JL Audio subs that never gaves that THD figure were reviewed by ST and Atkinson gaves it at 6%. Yes, it's a very good looking unit but nothing that can not even the Velodyne but is far away from it. Sorry for the owners that have that very high distortion levels in the main home system audio bass range.
Now, what happens with JLA is not only them almost all subs in the market but Velodyne has problems there.

THD, between other things, is one spec critical when we are buying subs.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 and friends: I’m always concerned on something that’s happening and where there is no single information.

It’s weird that not only in information coming from the sites you linked and from the JBL information all those gentlemans speaks about even bass response but no one of them " touch " nothing in reference at distortions levels not only THD or IMD but any kind of distortion.

That’s why I always try to think " out of the box " and asking me for " something "...

Speaking of " OTB " I just made it another fasinating move and here it’s a totally new discovery for the better:

as many of you and through the years I was testing different power line fuses at the electronic inputs in all my electronic system items where I found out that better quality fuses just means better quality performance in this regards the best I found out are the ones coming from Synergistic Research: Quantum Red and Black.

What did I?, now that I have my dedicated power line " bullet proof " fully regulated, with surge protection, RF/EMI filters I thought:
What if I by-pass all those fuses ( 14 in my system. ) due that I don’t need any more because the whole system is protected in that fuse task regards?

Well I did it and was and is jus " genial ": quality system sound performance level improved so: The Best Fuse Is Not Fuse At All ! ! !

What a discovery ! just great one.

All that improved system noise floor, bass range, room " disappears " that I achieved with my last discoveries posted in this tread only improved again when I was thinking that nothing could help to improve it. Fortunatelly I was wrong with this last sentence.

Rigth now there are no fuses in: my subwoofers, amplifiers, CD player, TT power supply and phonolinepreamp and the digital an analog performance is better than ever with an unbeatable high resolution where we can aware of the digital/analog source errors and advantages of each alternative in between. Btw, analog just hands down digital alternative.

I think that all of you that have a precise proved regulated/surge protection power line have to test it and I’m sure you will enhance your system enjoying listening sessions.

Regards and enjoy de MUSIC not distortions,
R.

Dear @enginedr1960: I think that you can have even better results if your monitor hi-pass changes from 50hz to 80hz. You can do it listen it and decide about. It's only an alternative to test it.


regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Well, Velodyne makes the blend at crossover frequency with a second order filter shape and latter on pass through fourt order and finished at 48db per octave in my HGS and the Velodyne HP is a first order filter (6db. ).

The name of the game is that blend at 12db per octave along the 6db per octave that in my case is not made by the Velodyne but at the input of my Levinson monoblocks..

 

R.