Dear Doug: " +++++(Facing in would aim a woofer directly at the TT and amplifiers, not a good idea!) " +++++
Well, it don't seems like a good idea but in my system both subs are facing my three TT's and I never detect any problem cause by the sub's. You have to try, I'm almost sure that you will not find problems about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Eldartford: +++++" there is no one best X/O frequency, at least for my system. " +++++
This is the name of the game. In my system it is an audible change when I sweep the frequency.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: For almost two years I was running the crossover frequency between my main speakers and the Velodyne's at 85-90 Hz.
It sound very good and let free the main speakers for the low bass reproduction responsibility lowering the Intermodulation Distortions level. The issue with that crossover frequency is that the subwoofers are reproducing frequencies that are not only out of its best frequency range of perfect quality reproduction but that those " high frequencies " are recognizable coming from the subs and " interfering " with the overall quality sound reproduction.
Two weeks ago I begin trying other croosover frequencies and ( today with my ystem ) I find that 60 Hz ( I try down to 40 Hz )is the way to go. This crossover frequency change makes wonders on the quality sound reproduction of my system, specially on transparency ( see through ), detail, immediacy and overall soundstage. Through this change my system is a " new system ", a lot better quality sound reproduction audio system, I'm feeling nearer to the recording, nearer to the live event with an increase of music emotions.
Well, like any of you I'm always looking for a better way to go, fortunately ( till today ) almost always exist that better " road ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear Eldartford: +++++ " My point is that the crossover electronics should permit the frequency to be easily changed, and one should not be afraid to adjust it as freely as the volume control. " +++++
I respect your point of view and certainly any one is free to make about what any one think is better for achieve the quality performance that are nearest to its music sound reproduction priorities.
My point of view is a " little " different from yours: I don't like to use the subwoofers ( crossover/volume ) like a continnuous " bass equalizer ". My first target is to obtain the best quality sound reproduction from my main speakers lowering the Intermodulation Distortion through let it them free to reproduce frequencies from 60Hz and lower and my second target is to obtain a better quality bass performance through a dedicated/specialty audio item ( subwoofer ) and to obtain ( too ) a lower bass response.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Eldartford: +++++ " My ability to sweep the X/O frequency without audible effect may not be usual " +++++
Certainly it is not .
In your Organ example ( crossover 200-300 Hz )and in your very well designed system I'm still worried about Intermodulation Distortions that with that high crossover frequency and with organ music it will be really high IMD: the organ music could go down to 16Hz or lower and normally in that kind of music your sub's are trying to reproduce frequencies in the very low bass: 16Hz to 40Hz and at the same time you are asking to reproduce in clean manner frequencies ( very critical audio range ) between 100Hz and 300Hz+, well this is what I'm concern of IMD.
Anyway at the " end of the day " you are crossing over 80Hz that makes more sense to me.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " if the main speakers can support a certain low frequency,before rolling off,it will be best to bring in the sub at just under this point. " +++++
Well this is one approach that mainly goes to have a lower bass response: it is the REL approach and other subwoofer manufacturers but not all of them.
My approach is different from yours, mine goes to obtain ( first place ) a better quality performance in my main speakers and in second place to achieve a better quality bass performance that could goes lower too.
I use two subwoofers in true stereo way to achieve those targets, the first one ( that you can't achieve with your approach. ) is obtained lowering the Intermodulation Distortion ( main speakers ), this means to stop to ask to the woofers ( main speakers ) the simultaneous reproduction of frequencies between 20Hz and 200HZ or higher( if yours goes flat to 30Hz then you still have some distorted response at 20Hz that makes higher the IMD subject/problem ), this means ( again ) that we have to choose a crossover frequency higher than what the main woofers are handled : in my case 60 Hz and in Eldartford 80Hz.
In this manner the main woofers will be free/less stressed of the low bass reproduction working from 60Hz-80Hz up and lowering ( cleaning in deep ) the IMD: this fact makes a huge improvement ( in any speaker including yours ) in the quality sound reproduction of the main speakers ( it is not matters what you think about or what I think about, lowering the IMD always improves the quality performance of " that " driver, physics laws. ).
The second advantage on this approach is that now the low bass frequency response not only goes down through the subwoofers but with a better quality bass performance due that those bass frequencies will be reproduced for " drivers /amplifiers " that were designed specific for those kind of bass frequencies.
I respect your approach but I don't like it because it can't give me a whole better quality performance in help to the music reproduction, instead my approach give us all. Through this thread are explained almost all you have to know about, please re-read it.
As I told you it does not matters what you and me think about, IMHO you must try that approach to make the " discovery " of your whole audio life.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Johnnyb53: +++++ " In system tuning, optimizing full-range speakers (let alone minimonitors) for imaging *and* bass response can drive you crazy. A sub enables you to tune for both. " +++++
This is one of the real subs integration advantages.
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear Chad: +++++ " , the VMPS with outboard cross-over and a high power Caver amp with gain control for the woofers is all I need, Organ notes no problem. They claim usable bass down 10db at 16hz, " +++++
Well, this seems to me like you already have a subwoofer through your VMPS speakers, so you don't need an additional one. Btw, which croosover frequency do you choose?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: Almost always we can to be rewarding our time/efforts trying to improve our audio system setting.
Yesterday I wonder what could be happen if I set up my subwoofers a little higher from the floor and this is what I do, four inches total height ( maybe in the future I could try a higher one but for the moment I'm very satisfied. )
The change was/is remarkable: the bass is more tight and with better definition( pitch ), less " bass noise/garbage ", better midbass and clearer/clean midrange/high frequencies response. Awesome !!!!!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Eldartford: Well your set up is very special. I'm refer to a more normal subwoofers set up.
Maybe my subwooferes could perform better at 40 inches above the floor but I can't do that.
My subject is that given a little more " space/height " to the subwoofers makes a remarkable difference in the quality sound reproduction of the whole audio system, at least that was/is what I'm experienced about with only 3 more inches ( total eight is 5" not 4" like I posted. Well 16" woofer-center from the floor. ).
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Rgordonpf: I think that you can/could achieve a very good quality sound improvement on your audio system with the addition of a second subwoofer connected in true stereo way.
Take a look/read to the link on my last post to Stringreen.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " Great articles posted by Davehrab. " +++++
I'm sorry, maybe I miss something: could you tell me where are those articles?, thank you in advance.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: Two weeks ago the left channel Velodyne subwoofer ( in my system ) goes down ( till today I don't even have time to make the diagnosis to repair it. ) and till today it is in the same state.
Well, this trouble let me change some things in my system that were very interesting and learning about:
the first action that I take was to disconnect the subwoofer left signal and connected to the available right channel subwoofer ( left and right signals in the same subwoofer ) , this right channel subwoofer is placed in an almost " open " place/position with out any wall reinforcement ( this is its original position ). I don't change the crossover frequency not even the subwoofer output level, well it sounds but in " bad " way: the response was to strong, a little congested and with too many room resonances ( that before I never experience ), I set up with low output level but things were out of my satisfaction.
So I decided to change this right channel ( the one that is working, the other was down. ) subwoofer in the same position where was the left channel one ( down one ) that has a corner wall reinforcement, well all those " wrong " subwoofer bass response disappear and everything goes on " focus " with out reproduction trouble and with out any change on crossover frequency or output level.
How sounds this alone subwoofer against the normal two subwoofers arrangement?, well it sounds good ( very good ) but the two subwoofer ( true stereo fashion ) set up is really better and worth it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: Yes, I already read it.
What I want point in my last post is that ( at least in my system/room ) the wall subwoofer reinforcement position help to smooth the bass response against an " open " subwoofer position.
The other subject was to re-confirm that the use of subwoofers has to be in true stereo way.
I already point it out that IMHO the most important improvement that we can/could have adding a pair of true stereo way subwoofers is to lower the intermodulation distortion on the main spekaers, in this way you don't only have ( for the first time ) true undistorted low bass response ( that when you hear it for the first time it will be extremly hard to live with out it. ) but you clean up all the whole system frequency response: mid bass, midrange and high frequencies, that give to us several advantages : lower distortion response, lower coloration, higher accuracy response, better dynamics, improve over all the sounstage/imagin/focus, improve on inner detail perception, etc, etc that at the " end of the day " can(could take us nearer to the recording and nearer to the live event.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Stringree: Well a not easy room. Adding two subwoofers in real stereo fashion will be help you in many ways but additional to that that room could need some kind of " treatment " trying to even its frequency response and kill those echoes.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Bob: By coincide that was something that I already have in mind. Yes there are some changes: TT, tonearms,MM cartridges, speaker mods, Phonolne preamp up-grades, etc, etc.
Any way you can read through the " virtual system " about those changes.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: I wonder what happen with you and your mind. Almost two years ago everything was clear about ( after a lot of posts betwwen you and me reasoning about. ), here it is your agreement:
+++++ " Raul,as per your last thread,I finally DO get your point,which is valid.Best wishes!
Speedy! " +++++, this was in 2005 in this thread.
Now, +++++ " For a mfgr to recommend against selling "product" my radar told me that #1--here was a responsible company .. " +++++
I'm sorry to disagree about on this subject but ( like I already posted somewhere in this thread ) IMHO that mfgr people does not nothing about improve the quality sound reproduction with the integration of two subwoofers in true stereo way, simple they don't have the precise know-how about, this ignorance IMHO is not a " responsible company " but ignorance, that's all.
Sirspeedy please re-read here ( and send to that mfgr people ):
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&158&4#158
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&4&4#4
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&176&4#176
If you and the Sumiko people can't understand what are on those links it is useless to follow talking about because both of you never had the opportunity to try the integration in your system of two subs in true stereo way but have argumentation against it: how could be that?, both of you continue with arguments with out facts!!!!.
Sirspeedy, maybe I could understand the Sumiko people ( because they are commercial oriented ) that sale the RELs that can't be integrated in true stereo fashion due that its crossover does not have a high pass filter but I can't understand to you ( with all respect ) that till today I think you are a wise and mature man.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " but still have no reason to want more from my own low end performance... " +++++
this is almost the same that you posted in 2005 before you agree.
This sentence IMHO and with all respect to you tell me that you don't understand yet the whole means of the subwoofer goals to improve the quality reproduction of any system including the one that you just heard and yours.
Mark, you are the one that are loosing the quality improvement of the two subwoofer subject and it is ok for me.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Bob: I like you need to do it.
+++++ " I have my room fairly well acoustically treated and have been able to obtain a good inroom response. " +++++
this is a critical subject and a very important link in the audio chain, good for you that already take care about: congratulations!.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Mark: I'm only try to help, I'm not a subwoofer distributor/dealer.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " and maybe you don't know that bass frequencies below 60 hz are perceived as "omni directional",so .... " ++++++
certainly that I know about.
Sirspeedy till you understand what means intermodulation distortion and harmonic distortion specially on non self-powered loudspeakers ( any ) we can't follow speaking about because you are talking only about low bass response that it is only one of several aplications of subwoofers and IMHO not the most important to improve the quality sound reproduction in any audio system.
+++++ " First of all,to flatly mention that two are automatically the way to go is just wrong... " +++++
this kind of statement has no single support ( real ) from your part.
I don't want to follow this " dialog " because your non know-how about only could confuse to other people and IMHO can't help to any one, I'm sorry not to have the right " education " here but I can't explain it in other educated way. Please don't bad feelings, I respect and you have my appreciation.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " Let's agree to leave it at that. " +++++
and then you posted again!.
+++++ " The business of "distortion" you mention has nothing to do with my application... " +++++
I assume that you are hearing to your Ascent speakers. Well that " business of distortion " IMHO has to do with any home audio aplication but headphones.
That " business " distortions " is the most important subject ( quality improvement ) when we integrate subwoofers in our audio system.
It is obvious that you don't understand the whole concept and that's why you are showing your ignorance about but like you posted: +++++ " we can "all" continuously learn " +++++
I always said and posted that I learn every single day on audio topics even from what you already posted on this subject, why don't you try to do the same?:
""" there is no worst unable to hear person that the one that don't want to hear. """""
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " NOW you are "intentionally" being insulting!! " +++++
I'm sorry that you thing that because was not my intention, Mark if you tell me ( on any subject ) that I have ignorance about I don't take it like an insult because maybe in that " virtual " subject I'm ignorant ( I don't have know-how about. How could you say non know-how? for me is ignorance and for you? ): no big deal. +++++ " .....I think you are taking this a bit too seriously. " +++++: your post.
Sirspeedy, the whole subwoofer subject IMHO has nothing to do about: +++++ " AND you have NOT ever heard my system....ALL my audio friends have heard it,and are set "against" a second sub!!! " +++++, it is not what your friends think, you or me: it is a stand alone subject.
+++++ " actually think that the ONLY way to go is two?..." +++++
no, not only but the best way and some times three or four ( and here yes depending on room ).
+++++ " as well as overall low frequency performance greatly affects this?...." +++++, you still are talking about only one subwoofer " goal " you are not taking the whole " view ", why? I can't understand it because like I alredy told you you are a wise and mature person.
+++++ " ...Are you afraid other regular posters will think less of you,if a subject does not go your way?..." +++++
cf course not, like you already told and I agree " we are learning ".
Mark, this is not a friendly fight to see which one win, the main point here is that no one loose and every body win some way or other.
I'm follow answering your posts because you follow posting it but I already told you:
+++++ " you are the one that are loosing the quality improvement of the two subwoofer subject and it is ok for me. " +++++, and is true if you agree or loose that opportunity or what ever that facts can/could not affect me.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Judsauce: Thank you for your contribution, was/is a pleasure.
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Bobb: Thank you for the notice.
Soon, I will have it and try to put on the virtual system.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: I'm croosing at 48Hz ( high pass ) where the manufacturer specs low bass ADS speaker response is: -3db at 22Hz and -5db at 18Hz.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Gregadd: Its curious t, the Harman International research on subs that is named in your link is the same that I posted ( I'm only take a high-light on a 30+ white paer pages. If I remember that reference was posted by Scott. ).
Thank you Gregadd.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Eldartford: +++++ " But I get smarter every year! " +++++
this was my first healthy laugh today, thank you for that !.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: Yes, I know that: thank you!.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Gregadd: That studio/research ( very extensive and professional. ) treat exactly the why´s about more than one subwoofer.
Kevin Voeks, an almost all time speaker designer and today behind Revel speakers designs, was one of the members in that Harman Int. subwoofer subject.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Dowunder: I could say the same from your speakers where its woofer works from 450 Hz down to 22 Hz, a very wide frequency range full of IMD and HD.
Please read very carefully what was posted about in this thread:
+++++ " this one was an answer to what you posted ( Downunder the Sirspeedy post is similar of what you are asking ):
+++++ " if the main speakers can support a certain low frequency,before rolling off,it will be best to bring in the sub at just under this point. " +++++
Well this is one approach that mainly goes to have a lower bass response: it is the REL approach and other subwoofer manufacturers but not all of them.
My approach is different from yours, mine goes to obtain ( first place ) a better quality performance in my main speakers and in second place to achieve a better quality bass performance that could goes lower too.
I use two subwoofers in true stereo way to achieve those targets, the first one ( that you can't achieve with your approach of one subwoofer. ) is obtained lowering the Intermodulation Distortion ( main speakers ), this means to stop to ask to the woofers ( main speakers ) the simultaneous reproduction of frequencies between 20Hz and 200HZ or higher( if yours goes flat to 30Hz then you still have some distorted response at 20Hz that makes higher the IMD subject/problem ), this means ( again ) that we have to choose a crossover frequency higher than what the main woofers are handled : in my case 60 Hz and in Eldartford 80Hz.
In this manner the main woofers will be free/less stressed of the low bass reproduction working from 60Hz-80Hz up and lowering ( cleaning in deep ) the IMD: this fact makes a huge improvement ( in any speaker including yours ) in the quality sound reproduction of the main speakers ( it is not matters what you think about or what I think about, lowering the IMD/HD always improves the quality performance of " that " driver, physics laws. ).
The second advantage on this approach is that now the low bass frequency response not only goes down through the subwoofers but with a better quality bass performance due that those bass frequencies will be reproduced for " drivers /amplifiers " that were designed specific for those kind of bass frequencies. " +++++
+++++ " Where the subs can help us ? :
Intermodulation Distortions ( harmonic distortions ): Almost any three ways speaker ( all two ways/one way ) has it's crossover frecuency ( low driver ) between 150Hz and 450Hz. I can assume that any of ours speakers system goes down flat ( at least ) between 60Hz to 20Hz.
What does that means ?, well that a single driver has to reproduce frequencies/harmonics from 20Hz/60Hz to 150Hz/450Hz. With that kind of frecuency range here exist a great intermodulation distortions that put it's " color " on the sound reproduction.
You have to imagine that that single woofer/driver has to reproduce, at the same " time ", a 30Hz frecuency along a 350Hz frecuency ( Downunder in your case from 20 to 450Hz ): here is where exist that IM/HD that gives heavy distortions in what we hear ( there is no perfect driver: moving coil, electrostatic, ribbon, etc.. The speaker designers has to choose the best " trade offs ", but the distortions are there. ): less clarity, less resolution, less precision, less natural balance, less pitch, les, less, less......., and this is what we are really hearing: LESS MUSIC.
What happen when that low driver is free from those frecuencies ? ( main speakers: monitors or full range, it does not matters. My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz and I have benefits with the subwoofers integration to my system ), below 60Hz:
SUDDENLY the " lights are on ", your music/audio " life " its born: the mid bass is clean, the midrange is clean, the highs are clean: high resolution every where ( the distortions are almost gone ), and now you can really hear for the first time the MUSIC through your home stereo audio system: what a pleasure!!!!!. " +++++
Mark the second subwoofer is not to obtain more bass but to even and smooth the room bass response:
08-02-05: Skushino
After adding a second sub to my system, there was smoother bass response. Again, this isn't about louder or stronger bass, in fact, I was seeking lower, smoother bass. Ironic that the path to this goal was accomplished by adding a sub! My girlfriend is a great listener and concurred that bass was better quality. Since I returned the second sub (on loan from my neighbor), I miss the performance " +++++
this quote comes from a in deep research made by Harman International Group:
+++++ " Using very large numbers of subwoofers would result in
cancellation of room modes. For practical numbers of
subwoofers, there appears to be no obvious correlation.
Two subwoofers, at opposing
wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the
midpoints and gives a much better LF factor
Can a sufficiently large number of
subwoofers cancel out all room
modes?
Theoretically yes
-------------------------------------
this one was and answer to Syrspeedy:
+++++ " I don't know at which frecuency you are cutting your REL. But, for example, if the crossover is at 27-30Hz and if the low pass filter is of second to fourth order then your REL is reproducing frecuencies as high like 80-100Hz that are interfering with the same frecuency range of your main speakers " +++++
this quote comes from a friend ( Agon ) that send to me for this thread. The research/investigation or whatever were made by: Audio Perfectionist Journal and Vandersteen:
+++++ " Suppose I told you that you could add two
components to your system that would reduce
intermodulation distortion in the midrange by a
factor of two or more, dramatically improve the
resolution of midrange and high frequency detail,
double or triple the dynamic range capability of
your system without changing your existing
amplifier or speakers and improve imaging more
than you can imagine. You would probably be
interested, right? But wait, theres more.
These same components would allow the
amplifier to maintain tighter control over the
speakers in the mid-bass and lower midrange.
They could extend bass response to infrasonic frequencies
while lowering bass distortion and
improving the systems ability to accurately convey
the rhythm and pace of music. And these
same components could virtually eliminate the
uneven response at lower frequencies caused by
room standing waves.
Does all that sound too good to be true?
Are you concerned about the possible cost of all
this improvement? If all this is so easily achievable,
are you wondering why youve never heard
about it before?
Let me assure you that all these sonic
improvements can be yours and Ive been conservative
in my estimates of the level of audible
improvement youll get.
and goes on. Conclusion: two subwoofers!!! +++++ "
this is another quote on the subject:
+++++ " - There is no single external / stand alone amplifier that can work or do a better job than a low bass dedicated amplifier like the one that comes with a powered subwoofer:
think that this dedicated bass amplifier was designed/tailored to match every single woofer parameter: impedance, frecuency response range, damping, power, distortion, etc, etc,...
- It is not only this dedicated amplifier what makes this subwoofer approach/technology ideal to handle the low bass octaves.
The driver/woofer is designed/tailored too for that specific frecuency range.
There is no passive FRS ( full range speaker ), at any price with any amplifier, that could beat a self powered subwoofers in that frecuency range. When you have and hear the subs on your system you never can live again with out those subwoofers.
Here we have to remember other important issue: the best subwoofers are SERVO CONTROLLED, this characteristic give to the subwoofer a heavy advantage over a FRS about the low distortion that a well designed subwoofer had against a higher distortions on any FRS.
- With a subwoofer we not only gain with a lowest harmonic distortion but with a lowest intermodulation distortion too. This means better quality sound reproduction.
- Other advantage is that with the integration of two subwoofers in a true stereo fashion to a full range speakers system: the main ( s ) amplifier will be free of those high power consumtion low bass frecuency range: this means too, better quality music sound reproduction. No exception.
- Other advantage with the subs integration is that facilitate the integration of our mains speakers to the room.
Do you think that your FRS audio system sounds great? Wait till you do the subwoofers integration: you will be on music heaven !!!!!!!! Nothing less. Try it. " +++++
Downunder, we have/must understand the whole benefits that can/could give us the integration of two subwoofers in true stereo fashion in our audio system.
As satisfied like you are with one subwoofer when you add the second one you can't believe its paramount importance and how can/could you were missing ( all that time the enjoyment. ) that very high quality sound reproduction performance !!!!!! , no doubt about: you will be highly surprised about and extremely happy too !!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Downunder: In my case I make the high-pass crossover directly in the amplifiers ( with a teflon cap ), around 50hz and the low-pass in de subwoofer crossover. In this way the signal that goes to the main speakers is almost un-touched.
Now, normaly both crossover frequencies set up through the dedicated subwoofer crossover: low-pass and high-pass. Normaly too almost all the subwoofers have this kind of crossover facilities but not on the REL ones because its approach is totally different. So you need to do it through an external electronic crossover.
Downunder, there are some misunderstood ( including the REL people and its customers. ) about the real subwoofer advantages and how can/could to improve the quality sound in our audio systems. The low bass improvement ( in quality and quantiy. ) is only one of its advantages and IMHO not the most important.
The main advantage, in my opinion, of two subwoofers in almost any audio system is to achieve a lower ( lot lower ) IMD/HD of your main speakers and when this happen it is an amazing experience that you can't live with out it.
Like everything in audio the in deep know-how on some critical subjects can/could make the difference between a very good performance and an extraordinary/outstanding one: well two subwoofers help you to achieve this!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: It is incredible ( that after several explanations and posts from everywhere/one. ) that you can't understand the whole subwoofer subject ( advantages ), you are talking ( still ) about bass and that is not ( IMHO ) the most important subs priority but to lower the IMD/HD.
I already posted ( several times ) that that was my approach: first to achieve lower IMD/HD ( main speakers ) ( Physics laws ), then better quality bass, then lower bass frequency response and better working on the main amplifiers. I repeat till today you don't understand this, not only that but you never try it in your today system how can you affirm nothing about.
I don't add my two Velodynes two obtain more bass because my ADS are very good here ( and for your information and for Dowunder too: sounds very good with out subs, with no boomy bass. Both of you are totally " crazy " about because you never hear/heard this system: your assumptions are totally wrong. Fortunatelly I have a great room ( I'm really lucky about. I appreciate that you stop to take wrong assumptions on my system. ) I add the subs for its whole advantages.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Downunder: With all respect, if Sirspeedy till today don't understand or can't or don't want it the whole subs subject: like you say: " I do not for one minute pretend to know much about subwoofers as I have only had the sub for less than one day and bought it quickly. "++++
you IMHO are not wrong but totally loss/stay. You have to re-read many of what other people alredy post here ( including some links ) to learn about and through that learning excersice you could understand about and affirm " things " on the subject with know-how not before.
Of course, like this time, you can follow other person way of think but I think that you can do it a favor to your self if you really understand the subject of what you are trying to talk and trying to " understand ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Downunder: +++++ " justice and move the speakers out from the corners. " +++++
who told you that my speakers are at the corners?, please read on my virtual system about ( room measures/shape and speaker position ).
This is the trouble when a person follow other one with out know-how ( read ). Again please read carefully before you write something with out sense.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: What Gregadd post ( thank you ) could help you:
+++++ " I remember when I ran my ML CLS full range. That big panel could bee seen moving back and forth trying to reduce bass notes. With subs it barely can be seen moving at all " +++++
this should be enough to understand the whole subs subject ( Physics laws ) or at least to understand what means IMD/HD and the paramount advantage to lower those IMD/HD: that is a problem with your speakers and the Downunder ones.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " To have a ported sub design substituting for "some" mid bass frequencies,that a good main speaker already has is tantamount to " +++++
maybe I'm wrong but I remember that your REL is a ported design, maybe your choose was not so good.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mark: I'm sorry to go on but your post is full of misunderstodd about IMD/HD: one of the worst " stages " for a high IMD are the two ways speakers where the " low " driver has to work from around 2K-3kHz down to 30-40 Hz !!!!
+++++ " Raul you are also incorrect in stating "servo bass" is the best.These types of systems(I've owned one or two)do not provide miracle cures.They are an alternative design concept,with their own advantages,and disadvantages. " +++++
I never talk of any miracle cures ( where is the illness? ).
Take a look of the velodyne servo design:
+++++ " Velodynes patented High Gain Servo technology
accelerometer that delivers a digital representation of
cone movement that is checked up to 15,800 times
per second ... " +++++
not bad eh?
Velodyne sevo design disadvantages? because is a servo design, that you have to tell to the Velodyne people and certainly explain them the disadvantages of their design.
I don't know if you are taking advise of some one on the whole subject but if you are doing that IMHO that kind of advise were/are with a very low almost non know-how and if you are not taking any other advise then I recomended ( with all respect ) that you do it and take it from everywhere with the right and in deep know-how and share with us that know-how.
Mark, I already told you:
+++++ " Please read carefully, I only want ( I would that ) that you understand the whole subject concept, if you want to aplicate or not is a totally different subject. " +++++
the only reason that I can see for you continue to post about is that you just don't understand, now if you did ( understand it ) then I can't unserstand anymore your last post.
Please let us know if you understand or not.
Now, if what you bother of my posts are that I say that " servo are te best ones " or that two subs are better than one ( to even and smooth response ), then I change it adding the word: almost, anywhere you like it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Bob: +++++ " My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz .... " +++++
these are the ADS manufacturer specs.
Bob, I whish I can to do it right now but I don't have the right tools to do it in the right way and for the other way " Sirspeedy don't let me time to do it, I have to answer him again and again ", no: seriously I'm right now with an in deep tests of our two tonearm prototypes and this stage on the tonearm design is very high time consuming, it is not only to compare each protoype against other tonearms but between those prototypes. This kind of work is not only between all those tonearms but with several differents cartridges!!!!!
At the first time that I can I will try to do what you are asking, sorry not make it before.
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mark: +++++ " Without the arrogance of someone telling them they don't understand the subject! " +++++
arrogance is a word that I " don't know ", sorry if what I post/posted seems like " arrogance ".
+++++ " And PLEASE get off the "IM distortion thing"!!!I don't hear "it" and either would you!!!...." +++++
I'm sorry but that is the main subject on the thread. I know that you don't like it but.....for you can hear it you must to compare: with and with lower one!!!
+++++ " The thing "you" simply cannot understand is not everybody thinks in an actual textbook fashion " +++++
you know what, there is almost nothing of textbook fashion about the subject because almost no one and no where take in count when speak about subwoofer advantages.
I discovery ( for my self and I'm not saying that I discovery for all and I'm not saying that was the first one or that it is the only " true ". ) for my self ( testing one and again ) and not looking for, that the subs make a lot difference but for other things than the low/deep sound reproduction: suddenly I learn about!!!! and the experience is so " unique " that I put this thread to share about with all of us.
If you go to any single manufacturer subwoofer website you can't find almost nothing on the subject, every body talks about bass reproduction ( the very old textbook fashion that you support. ) but Vandersteen people that not only build subwoofers but " main speakers " : they understand perfectly the whole thread subject.
I know that it is not easy ( to any one including me ) to accept the " news " , almost all of us are a little " close " to a new ideas: Hey the earth is not flat but sphere/globe !!!!! blasphemy!! blasphemy! burn him!!!!, remember?. Well is only an example with out trying to compare at that importance level.
+++++ " AND,it does NOT mean you automatically have IM distortion issues " +++++
well, till today that kind of speaker distortions always be there, one of the best ways to improve the quality speaker performance is lowering those distortions!!! and that is what I'm saying nothing more.
Rgeards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Bob: +++++ " you don't even have any basic measurements.... " +++++
how do you know that what you are hearing is right in a live music event if you don't have measurements?, well you use the best tools for measure: your experiences ears/brain, through them ( if you have the right know-how. ) you know if things go fine.
I'm not against those kind of measurements but according with your point maybe the Agon forums must dissapear because how can you believe what any one say/talk if they don't have measurements about?
Bob make your music life easy and enjoy it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Koegz: Good for you and this is all about: that any one of us could enjoy what we have in the best way with the best quality performance.
For what you posted I asumme that you was using the sub like a bass reinforcement, right?, which one do you use it?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Bob: +++++ " You do not want your playback/room to alter the original sound " +++++
who say so? I did not.
Bob with al respect your " agenda " is not the main subject on this thread and IMHO belongs to your speaker forum thread.
If you want to argue about then let me know and maybe I could do it in the speaker thread: not here. Thank you for your understanding.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: You like it ah!, this is your fourth comeback for...!!!
Mark, no I don't ignore you when you posted about: things are that what Bob ask and this main thread subject are totally different, tha's all. I understand your point too: totally.
Now, maybe you can/could think : if you don't ignore what I posted and understand my point why don't " accept " it?, well the IMD/HD subject ( subs/speakers ) is a very complex one and IMHO almost only when we experience it in our today system or any today system we can/could say that we already have that know-how, not before.
What I mean with experience it: I mean that we already had the opportunity to compare the same system with the " normal " IMD/HD " ( speakers. ) and with a lower one ( adding two subs in stereo fashion using the low-pass and high-pass crossover filters in a true satellite/subs configuration ).
Now, if you tell me that you already had that experience ( a in deep comparison. ) in your own ( today ) system or in an other today system then please accept my apologies for my past posts to you on the subject. Please no assumptions/imagination here: only facts.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Azjake: I never have the opportunity to hear those WB subs but I already read many great things about.
Congratulations for what you already achieve through them in both speakers.
I'm sure is a must to hear!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mark: I know who is he and with all respect I don't care that he is a " bass fanatic " because unfortunatelly the main thread subject is not about bass!
I know very well your speakers ( the original importer here and the today one are one of my best audio friends. Speaking on the Ascents not only I know its performance but every single signal manipulation that take inside that complex more than 100+ parts crossover that IMHO is one of its disadvantages. I don't want following speak about those speakers: this is not the right forum. ), don't worry about but thank you to remember me.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Jimjoyce25: Nice to see that you agree.
IMHO with today advance on subwoofer designs it is more easy to integrate on almost any system, the DD Velodyne series are really good about and works in almost any system you can imagine.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: I think that you are a little " angry " with me, maybe because my last post to you: please let me explain a little about because what I went to say was wrong " writed ":
- about Sid of course that I care about him and it is so good to know that he is a bass " fanatic " ( because, IMHO , the music foundation belongs to that frequency range. ).
I say that the main thread subject is not about bass ( at least not in the old traditional way. ) but other critical advantages where the subs are involve so the bass " fanatic " subject can't help us.
- Avalon speakers: I want to tell you how Avalon ( along other names. ) help me to almost start my growing-up on the high-end audio/music home entertainment.
Many years ago ( when appear the Ascent/Eclipse/Avatar Avalon line ) it happens that in those times here in México start the true dealer/distributor high-end " boom ". Many of those dealers and audiophiles of those times are one of my best friends today.
We ( audiophiles ) were extremely enthusiastic people with a " hungry " to learn and discovery the true high end world, almost of all of us achieve that goal in more/less manner.
We obtain a very friendly support from every high-end dealer ( six of them ) and we attend almost every single day ( like a group. ) to its show rooms where we not only heard music over different systems but where some one speaks to the group on different music/sound reproduction topic.
Well, Fredy ( a very wealthy person ) was a heavy enthusiastic dealer from Avalon/Rowland/Accuphase, / ASC/ VTL/etc, he had three different show rooms ( between others including home theater ones. ) only for Avalon/Rowland: Ascent, Eclipse and Avatar room.
All those rooms were tested/approved by Avalon ( Neil Pattel. ), well we goes there two three times a week to heard those audio system but not only to heard it but to test different options: amps, preamps, cables, speaker position, etc, etc. So I really go in deep with Avalon and through its " magic " I fall in love with the high end " stage ".
Neil comes several times to Mexico and in two ocassions he give us all the in deep Avalon design goals, he " naked " his Ascent ( including crossover ) and explain everything about.
Then comes with the MK2 Ascent version and change its original design.
So Avalon is a name that I have in very good shape for its high build quality and high quality performance but that big external crossover was a disadvantage for its speaker manufacturer and in commercial way and they change it to improve: they achieve its improvement goals? only the Avalon's owners could be answer from sure.
When we see for the first time that big crossover all of us ( with out heard the speakers ) were impressed for say the least but over the years I learn that sometimes " less is more " in audio.
I don't try in my last post in any way to say that your Avalons are not good speakers because I know it very well and are good ones.
Thank you for your understanding. No, you don't have to answer.
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mark: +++++ " you have NO idea what the Ascent MK-II is capable of with "today" equipment " +++++
I can imagine because my very old ADS are awesome with " today " equipment and there is no reason to think that the Ascents ( that I know very well ) are not.
+++++ " Sometimes I believe you are way too analytical " +++++
well I think a little different, that's all.
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: Too many parts where the signal goes through. In those times seems to me that the Avatar was its best performer model, of course that because does not go so deep had lower " problems ".
Floor material?: concrete with a 1" pure wool oriental rug.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
