Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " but still have no reason to want more from my own low end performance... " +++++

this is almost the same that you posted in 2005 before you agree.

This sentence IMHO and with all respect to you tell me that you don't understand yet the whole means of the subwoofer goals to improve the quality reproduction of any system including the one that you just heard and yours.

Mark, you are the one that are loosing the quality improvement of the two subwoofer subject and it is ok for me.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Bob: I like you need to do it.
+++++ " I have my room fairly well acoustically treated and have been able to obtain a good inroom response. " +++++

this is a critical subject and a very important link in the audio chain, good for you that already take care about: congratulations!.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Mark: I'm only try to help, I'm not a subwoofer distributor/dealer.

Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " and maybe you don't know that bass frequencies below 60 hz are perceived as "omni directional",so .... " ++++++

certainly that I know about.

Sirspeedy till you understand what means intermodulation distortion and harmonic distortion specially on non self-powered loudspeakers ( any ) we can't follow speaking about because you are talking only about low bass response that it is only one of several aplications of subwoofers and IMHO not the most important to improve the quality sound reproduction in any audio system.

+++++ " First of all,to flatly mention that two are automatically the way to go is just wrong... " +++++

this kind of statement has no single support ( real ) from your part.

I don't want to follow this " dialog " because your non know-how about only could confuse to other people and IMHO can't help to any one, I'm sorry not to have the right " education " here but I can't explain it in other educated way. Please don't bad feelings, I respect and you have my appreciation.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " Let's agree to leave it at that. " +++++

and then you posted again!.

+++++ " The business of "distortion" you mention has nothing to do with my application... " +++++

I assume that you are hearing to your Ascent speakers. Well that " business of distortion " IMHO has to do with any home audio aplication but headphones.

That " business " distortions " is the most important subject ( quality improvement ) when we integrate subwoofers in our audio system.

It is obvious that you don't understand the whole concept and that's why you are showing your ignorance about but like you posted: +++++ " we can "all" continuously learn " +++++

I always said and posted that I learn every single day on audio topics even from what you already posted on this subject, why don't you try to do the same?:
""" there is no worst unable to hear person that the one that don't want to hear. """""

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " NOW you are "intentionally" being insulting!! " +++++

I'm sorry that you thing that because was not my intention, Mark if you tell me ( on any subject ) that I have ignorance about I don't take it like an insult because maybe in that " virtual " subject I'm ignorant ( I don't have know-how about. How could you say non know-how? for me is ignorance and for you? ): no big deal. +++++ " .....I think you are taking this a bit too seriously. " +++++: your post.

Sirspeedy, the whole subwoofer subject IMHO has nothing to do about: +++++ " AND you have NOT ever heard my system....ALL my audio friends have heard it,and are set "against" a second sub!!! " +++++, it is not what your friends think, you or me: it is a stand alone subject.

+++++ " actually think that the ONLY way to go is two?..." +++++

no, not only but the best way and some times three or four ( and here yes depending on room ).

+++++ " as well as overall low frequency performance greatly affects this?...." +++++, you still are talking about only one subwoofer " goal " you are not taking the whole " view ", why? I can't understand it because like I alredy told you you are a wise and mature person.

+++++ " ...Are you afraid other regular posters will think less of you,if a subject does not go your way?..." +++++

cf course not, like you already told and I agree " we are learning ".

Mark, this is not a friendly fight to see which one win, the main point here is that no one loose and every body win some way or other.

I'm follow answering your posts because you follow posting it but I already told you:
+++++ " you are the one that are loosing the quality improvement of the two subwoofer subject and it is ok for me. " +++++, and is true if you agree or loose that opportunity or what ever that facts can/could not affect me.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Judsauce: Thank you for your contribution, was/is a pleasure.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Bobb: Thank you for the notice.

Soon, I will have it and try to put on the virtual system.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: I'm croosing at 48Hz ( high pass ) where the manufacturer specs low bass ADS speaker response is: -3db at 22Hz and -5db at 18Hz.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gregadd: Its curious t, the Harman International research on subs that is named in your link is the same that I posted ( I'm only take a high-light on a 30+ white paer pages. If I remember that reference was posted by Scott. ).

Thank you Gregadd.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Eldartford: +++++ " But I get smarter every year! " +++++

this was my first healthy laugh today, thank you for that !.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: Yes, I know that: thank you!.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gregadd: That studio/research ( very extensive and professional. ) treat exactly the why´s about more than one subwoofer.

Kevin Voeks, an almost all time speaker designer and today behind Revel speakers designs, was one of the members in that Harman Int. subwoofer subject.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Dowunder: I could say the same from your speakers where its woofer works from 450 Hz down to 22 Hz, a very wide frequency range full of IMD and HD.
Please read very carefully what was posted about in this thread:

+++++ " this one was an answer to what you posted ( Downunder the Sirspeedy post is similar of what you are asking ):

+++++ " if the main speakers can support a certain low frequency,before rolling off,it will be best to bring in the sub at just under this point. " +++++

Well this is one approach that mainly goes to have a lower bass response: it is the REL approach and other subwoofer manufacturers but not all of them.

My approach is different from yours, mine goes to obtain ( first place ) a better quality performance in my main speakers and in second place to achieve a better quality bass performance that could goes lower too.

I use two subwoofers in true stereo way to achieve those targets, the first one ( that you can't achieve with your approach of one subwoofer. ) is obtained lowering the Intermodulation Distortion ( main speakers ), this means to stop to ask to the woofers ( main speakers ) the simultaneous reproduction of frequencies between 20Hz and 200HZ or higher( if yours goes flat to 30Hz then you still have some distorted response at 20Hz that makes higher the IMD subject/problem ), this means ( again ) that we have to choose a crossover frequency higher than what the main woofers are handled : in my case 60 Hz and in Eldartford 80Hz.
In this manner the main woofers will be free/less stressed of the low bass reproduction working from 60Hz-80Hz up and lowering ( cleaning in deep ) the IMD: this fact makes a huge improvement ( in any speaker including yours ) in the quality sound reproduction of the main speakers ( it is not matters what you think about or what I think about, lowering the IMD/HD always improves the quality performance of " that " driver, physics laws. ).

The second advantage on this approach is that now the low bass frequency response not only goes down through the subwoofers but with a better quality bass performance due that those bass frequencies will be reproduced for " drivers /amplifiers " that were designed specific for those kind of bass frequencies. " +++++

+++++ " Where the subs can help us ? :

Intermodulation Distortions ( harmonic distortions ): Almost any three ways speaker ( all two ways/one way ) has it's crossover frecuency ( low driver ) between 150Hz and 450Hz. I can assume that any of ours speakers system goes down flat ( at least ) between 60Hz to 20Hz.

What does that means ?, well that a single driver has to reproduce frequencies/harmonics from 20Hz/60Hz to 150Hz/450Hz. With that kind of frecuency range here exist a great intermodulation distortions that put it's " color " on the sound reproduction.

You have to imagine that that single woofer/driver has to reproduce, at the same " time ", a 30Hz frecuency along a 350Hz frecuency ( Downunder in your case from 20 to 450Hz ): here is where exist that IM/HD that gives heavy distortions in what we hear ( there is no perfect driver: moving coil, electrostatic, ribbon, etc.. The speaker designers has to choose the best " trade offs ", but the distortions are there. ): less clarity, less resolution, less precision, less natural balance, less pitch, les, less, less......., and this is what we are really hearing: LESS MUSIC.

What happen when that low driver is free from those frecuencies ? ( main speakers: monitors or full range, it does not matters. My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz and I have benefits with the subwoofers integration to my system ), below 60Hz:

SUDDENLY the " lights are on ", your music/audio " life " its born: the mid bass is clean, the midrange is clean, the highs are clean: high resolution every where ( the distortions are almost gone ), and now you can really hear for the first time the MUSIC through your home stereo audio system: what a pleasure!!!!!. " +++++

Mark the second subwoofer is not to obtain more bass but to even and smooth the room bass response:

08-02-05: Skushino
After adding a second sub to my system, there was smoother bass response. Again, this isn't about louder or stronger bass, in fact, I was seeking lower, smoother bass. Ironic that the path to this goal was accomplished by adding a sub! My girlfriend is a great listener and concurred that bass was better quality. Since I returned the second sub (on loan from my neighbor), I miss the performance " +++++

this quote comes from a in deep research made by Harman International Group:

+++++ " Using very large numbers of subwoofers would result in
cancellation of room modes. For practical numbers of
subwoofers, there appears to be no obvious correlation.

Two subwoofers, at opposing
wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the
midpoints and gives a much better LF factor

Can a sufficiently large number of
subwoofers cancel out all room
modes?
Theoretically yes

-------------------------------------

this one was and answer to Syrspeedy:

+++++ " I don't know at which frecuency you are cutting your REL. But, for example, if the crossover is at 27-30Hz and if the low pass filter is of second to fourth order then your REL is reproducing frecuencies as high like 80-100Hz that are interfering with the same frecuency range of your main speakers " +++++

this quote comes from a friend ( Agon ) that send to me for this thread. The research/investigation or whatever were made by: Audio Perfectionist Journal and Vandersteen:

+++++ " Suppose I told you that you could add two
components to your system that would reduce
intermodulation distortion in the midrange by a
factor of two or more, dramatically improve the
resolution of midrange and high frequency detail,
double or triple the dynamic range capability of
your system without changing your existing
amplifier or speakers and improve imaging more
than you can imagine. You would probably be
interested, right? But wait, there’s more.
These same components would allow the
amplifier to maintain tighter control over the
speakers in the mid-bass and lower midrange.
They could extend bass response to infrasonic frequencies
while lowering bass distortion and
improving the system’s ability to accurately convey
the rhythm and pace of music. And these
same components could virtually eliminate the
uneven response at lower frequencies caused by
room standing waves.
Does all that sound too good to be true?
Are you concerned about the possible cost of all
this improvement? If all this is so easily achievable,
are you wondering why you’ve never heard
about it before?
Let me assure you that all these sonic
improvements can be yours and I’ve been conservative
in my estimates of the level of audible
improvement you’ll get.
and goes on. Conclusion: two subwoofers!!! +++++ "

this is another quote on the subject:

+++++ " - There is no single external / stand alone amplifier that can work or do a better job than a low bass dedicated amplifier like the one that comes with a powered subwoofer:

think that this dedicated bass amplifier was designed/tailored to match every single woofer parameter: impedance, frecuency response range, damping, power, distortion, etc, etc,...

- It is not only this dedicated amplifier what makes this subwoofer approach/technology ideal to handle the low bass octaves.
The driver/woofer is designed/tailored too for that specific frecuency range.
There is no passive FRS ( full range speaker ), at any price with any amplifier, that could beat a self powered subwoofers in that frecuency range. When you have and hear the subs on your system you never can live again with out those subwoofers.

Here we have to remember other important issue: the best subwoofers are SERVO CONTROLLED, this characteristic give to the subwoofer a heavy advantage over a FRS about the low distortion that a well designed subwoofer had against a higher distortions on any FRS.

- With a subwoofer we not only gain with a lowest harmonic distortion but with a lowest intermodulation distortion too. This means better quality sound reproduction.

- Other advantage is that with the integration of two subwoofers in a true stereo fashion to a full range speakers system: the main ( s ) amplifier will be free of those high power consumtion low bass frecuency range: this means too, better quality music sound reproduction. No exception.

- Other advantage with the subs integration is that facilitate the integration of our mains speakers to the room.

Do you think that your FRS audio system sounds great? Wait till you do the subwoofers integration: you will be on music heaven !!!!!!!! Nothing less. Try it. " +++++

Downunder, we have/must understand the whole benefits that can/could give us the integration of two subwoofers in true stereo fashion in our audio system.

As satisfied like you are with one subwoofer when you add the second one you can't believe its paramount importance and how can/could you were missing ( all that time the enjoyment. ) that very high quality sound reproduction performance !!!!!! , no doubt about: you will be highly surprised about and extremely happy too !!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Downunder: In my case I make the high-pass crossover directly in the amplifiers ( with a teflon cap ), around 50hz and the low-pass in de subwoofer crossover. In this way the signal that goes to the main speakers is almost un-touched.

Now, normaly both crossover frequencies set up through the dedicated subwoofer crossover: low-pass and high-pass. Normaly too almost all the subwoofers have this kind of crossover facilities but not on the REL ones because its approach is totally different. So you need to do it through an external electronic crossover.

Downunder, there are some misunderstood ( including the REL people and its customers. ) about the real subwoofer advantages and how can/could to improve the quality sound in our audio systems. The low bass improvement ( in quality and quantiy. ) is only one of its advantages and IMHO not the most important.
The main advantage, in my opinion, of two subwoofers in almost any audio system is to achieve a lower ( lot lower ) IMD/HD of your main speakers and when this happen it is an amazing experience that you can't live with out it.

Like everything in audio the in deep know-how on some critical subjects can/could make the difference between a very good performance and an extraordinary/outstanding one: well two subwoofers help you to achieve this!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: It is incredible ( that after several explanations and posts from everywhere/one. ) that you can't understand the whole subwoofer subject ( advantages ), you are talking ( still ) about bass and that is not ( IMHO ) the most important subs priority but to lower the IMD/HD.

I already posted ( several times ) that that was my approach: first to achieve lower IMD/HD ( main speakers ) ( Physics laws ), then better quality bass, then lower bass frequency response and better working on the main amplifiers. I repeat till today you don't understand this, not only that but you never try it in your today system how can you affirm nothing about.

I don't add my two Velodynes two obtain more bass because my ADS are very good here ( and for your information and for Dowunder too: sounds very good with out subs, with no boomy bass. Both of you are totally " crazy " about because you never hear/heard this system: your assumptions are totally wrong. Fortunatelly I have a great room ( I'm really lucky about. I appreciate that you stop to take wrong assumptions on my system. ) I add the subs for its whole advantages.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Downunder: With all respect, if Sirspeedy till today don't understand or can't or don't want it the whole subs subject: like you say: " I do not for one minute pretend to know much about subwoofers as I have only had the sub for less than one day and bought it quickly. "++++

you IMHO are not wrong but totally loss/stay. You have to re-read many of what other people alredy post here ( including some links ) to learn about and through that learning excersice you could understand about and affirm " things " on the subject with know-how not before.

Of course, like this time, you can follow other person way of think but I think that you can do it a favor to your self if you really understand the subject of what you are trying to talk and trying to " understand ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Downunder: +++++ " justice and move the speakers out from the corners. " +++++

who told you that my speakers are at the corners?, please read on my virtual system about ( room measures/shape and speaker position ).

This is the trouble when a person follow other one with out know-how ( read ). Again please read carefully before you write something with out sense.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: What Gregadd post ( thank you ) could help you:

+++++ " I remember when I ran my ML CLS full range. That big panel could bee seen moving back and forth trying to reduce bass notes. With subs it barely can be seen moving at all " +++++

this should be enough to understand the whole subs subject ( Physics laws ) or at least to understand what means IMD/HD and the paramount advantage to lower those IMD/HD: that is a problem with your speakers and the Downunder ones.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " To have a ported sub design substituting for "some" mid bass frequencies,that a good main speaker already has is tantamount to " +++++

maybe I'm wrong but I remember that your REL is a ported design, maybe your choose was not so good.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Mark: I'm sorry to go on but your post is full of misunderstodd about IMD/HD: one of the worst " stages " for a high IMD are the two ways speakers where the " low " driver has to work from around 2K-3kHz down to 30-40 Hz !!!!

+++++ " Raul you are also incorrect in stating "servo bass" is the best.These types of systems(I've owned one or two)do not provide miracle cures.They are an alternative design concept,with their own advantages,and disadvantages. " +++++

I never talk of any miracle cures ( where is the illness? ).
Take a look of the velodyne servo design:

+++++ " Velodyne’s patented High Gain Servo technology
accelerometer that delivers a digital representation of
cone movement that is checked up to 15,800 times
per second ... " +++++

not bad eh?

Velodyne sevo design disadvantages? because is a servo design, that you have to tell to the Velodyne people and certainly explain them the disadvantages of their design.

I don't know if you are taking advise of some one on the whole subject but if you are doing that IMHO that kind of advise were/are with a very low almost non know-how and if you are not taking any other advise then I recomended ( with all respect ) that you do it and take it from everywhere with the right and in deep know-how and share with us that know-how.

Mark, I already told you:

+++++ " Please read carefully, I only want ( I would that ) that you understand the whole subject concept, if you want to aplicate or not is a totally different subject. " +++++

the only reason that I can see for you continue to post about is that you just don't understand, now if you did ( understand it ) then I can't unserstand anymore your last post.

Please let us know if you understand or not.

Now, if what you bother of my posts are that I say that " servo are te best ones " or that two subs are better than one ( to even and smooth response ), then I change it adding the word: almost, anywhere you like it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Bob: +++++ " My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz .... " +++++

these are the ADS manufacturer specs.

Bob, I whish I can to do it right now but I don't have the right tools to do it in the right way and for the other way " Sirspeedy don't let me time to do it, I have to answer him again and again ", no: seriously I'm right now with an in deep tests of our two tonearm prototypes and this stage on the tonearm design is very high time consuming, it is not only to compare each protoype against other tonearms but between those prototypes. This kind of work is not only between all those tonearms but with several differents cartridges!!!!!

At the first time that I can I will try to do what you are asking, sorry not make it before.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Mark: +++++ " Without the arrogance of someone telling them they don't understand the subject! " +++++

arrogance is a word that I " don't know ", sorry if what I post/posted seems like " arrogance ".

+++++ " And PLEASE get off the "IM distortion thing"!!!I don't hear "it" and either would you!!!...." +++++

I'm sorry but that is the main subject on the thread. I know that you don't like it but.....for you can hear it you must to compare: with and with lower one!!!

+++++ " The thing "you" simply cannot understand is not everybody thinks in an actual textbook fashion " +++++

you know what, there is almost nothing of textbook fashion about the subject because almost no one and no where take in count when speak about subwoofer advantages.

I discovery ( for my self and I'm not saying that I discovery for all and I'm not saying that was the first one or that it is the only " true ". ) for my self ( testing one and again ) and not looking for, that the subs make a lot difference but for other things than the low/deep sound reproduction: suddenly I learn about!!!! and the experience is so " unique " that I put this thread to share about with all of us.

If you go to any single manufacturer subwoofer website you can't find almost nothing on the subject, every body talks about bass reproduction ( the very old textbook fashion that you support. ) but Vandersteen people that not only build subwoofers but " main speakers " : they understand perfectly the whole thread subject.

I know that it is not easy ( to any one including me ) to accept the " news " , almost all of us are a little " close " to a new ideas: Hey the earth is not flat but sphere/globe !!!!! blasphemy!! blasphemy! burn him!!!!, remember?. Well is only an example with out trying to compare at that importance level.

+++++ " AND,it does NOT mean you automatically have IM distortion issues " +++++

well, till today that kind of speaker distortions always be there, one of the best ways to improve the quality speaker performance is lowering those distortions!!! and that is what I'm saying nothing more.

Rgeards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Bob: +++++ " you don't even have any basic measurements.... " +++++

how do you know that what you are hearing is right in a live music event if you don't have measurements?, well you use the best tools for measure: your experiences ears/brain, through them ( if you have the right know-how. ) you know if things go fine.

I'm not against those kind of measurements but according with your point maybe the Agon forums must dissapear because how can you believe what any one say/talk if they don't have measurements about?

Bob make your music life easy and enjoy it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Koegz: Good for you and this is all about: that any one of us could enjoy what we have in the best way with the best quality performance.

For what you posted I asumme that you was using the sub like a bass reinforcement, right?, which one do you use it?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Bob: +++++ " You do not want your playback/room to alter the original sound " +++++

who say so? I did not.

Bob with al respect your " agenda " is not the main subject on this thread and IMHO belongs to your speaker forum thread.

If you want to argue about then let me know and maybe I could do it in the speaker thread: not here. Thank you for your understanding.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: You like it ah!, this is your fourth comeback for...!!!

Mark, no I don't ignore you when you posted about: things are that what Bob ask and this main thread subject are totally different, tha's all. I understand your point too: totally.

Now, maybe you can/could think : if you don't ignore what I posted and understand my point why don't " accept " it?, well the IMD/HD subject ( subs/speakers ) is a very complex one and IMHO almost only when we experience it in our today system or any today system we can/could say that we already have that know-how, not before.

What I mean with experience it: I mean that we already had the opportunity to compare the same system with the " normal " IMD/HD " ( speakers. ) and with a lower one ( adding two subs in stereo fashion using the low-pass and high-pass crossover filters in a true satellite/subs configuration ).

Now, if you tell me that you already had that experience ( a in deep comparison. ) in your own ( today ) system or in an other today system then please accept my apologies for my past posts to you on the subject. Please no assumptions/imagination here: only facts.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Azjake: I never have the opportunity to hear those WB subs but I already read many great things about.

Congratulations for what you already achieve through them in both speakers.

I'm sure is a must to hear!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Mark: I know who is he and with all respect I don't care that he is a " bass fanatic " because unfortunatelly the main thread subject is not about bass!

I know very well your speakers ( the original importer here and the today one are one of my best audio friends. Speaking on the Ascents not only I know its performance but every single signal manipulation that take inside that complex more than 100+ parts crossover that IMHO is one of its disadvantages. I don't want following speak about those speakers: this is not the right forum. ), don't worry about but thank you to remember me.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jimjoyce25: Nice to see that you agree.

IMHO with today advance on subwoofer designs it is more easy to integrate on almost any system, the DD Velodyne series are really good about and works in almost any system you can imagine.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: I think that you are a little " angry " with me, maybe because my last post to you: please let me explain a little about because what I went to say was wrong " writed ":

- about Sid of course that I care about him and it is so good to know that he is a bass " fanatic " ( because, IMHO , the music foundation belongs to that frequency range. ).
I say that the main thread subject is not about bass ( at least not in the old traditional way. ) but other critical advantages where the subs are involve so the bass " fanatic " subject can't help us.

- Avalon speakers: I want to tell you how Avalon ( along other names. ) help me to almost start my growing-up on the high-end audio/music home entertainment.

Many years ago ( when appear the Ascent/Eclipse/Avatar Avalon line ) it happens that in those times here in México start the true dealer/distributor high-end " boom ". Many of those dealers and audiophiles of those times are one of my best friends today.

We ( audiophiles ) were extremely enthusiastic people with a " hungry " to learn and discovery the true high end world, almost of all of us achieve that goal in more/less manner.

We obtain a very friendly support from every high-end dealer ( six of them ) and we attend almost every single day ( like a group. ) to its show rooms where we not only heard music over different systems but where some one speaks to the group on different music/sound reproduction topic.

Well, Fredy ( a very wealthy person ) was a heavy enthusiastic dealer from Avalon/Rowland/Accuphase, / ASC/ VTL/etc, he had three different show rooms ( between others including home theater ones. ) only for Avalon/Rowland: Ascent, Eclipse and Avatar room.

All those rooms were tested/approved by Avalon ( Neil Pattel. ), well we goes there two three times a week to heard those audio system but not only to heard it but to test different options: amps, preamps, cables, speaker position, etc, etc. So I really go in deep with Avalon and through its " magic " I fall in love with the high end " stage ".

Neil comes several times to Mexico and in two ocassions he give us all the in deep Avalon design goals, he " naked " his Ascent ( including crossover ) and explain everything about.
Then comes with the MK2 Ascent version and change its original design.

So Avalon is a name that I have in very good shape for its high build quality and high quality performance but that big external crossover was a disadvantage for its speaker manufacturer and in commercial way and they change it to improve: they achieve its improvement goals? only the Avalon's owners could be answer from sure.

When we see for the first time that big crossover all of us ( with out heard the speakers ) were impressed for say the least but over the years I learn that sometimes " less is more " in audio.
I don't try in my last post in any way to say that your Avalons are not good speakers because I know it very well and are good ones.

Thank you for your understanding. No, you don't have to answer.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Mark: +++++ " you have NO idea what the Ascent MK-II is capable of with "today" equipment " +++++

I can imagine because my very old ADS are awesome with " today " equipment and there is no reason to think that the Ascents ( that I know very well ) are not.

+++++ " Sometimes I believe you are way too analytical " +++++

well I think a little different, that's all.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: Too many parts where the signal goes through. In those times seems to me that the Avatar was its best performer model, of course that because does not go so deep had lower " problems ".

Floor material?: concrete with a 1" pure wool oriental rug.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Mark: What is all " these " about?. You return ( by any topic ) again and again.

I never say that the Ascents were a bad design or a bad sounding speaker. I only say that IMHO its crossover is one of its disadvantages, because you can't tell me that that speaker is " perfect " with out any disadvantages.

266 parts where the signal must pass on ( see it. ) could be an advantage ( from your point of view ) or could not be an advantage ( from my point of view ).

CH made its own speaker trade-offs design where you or any one else can or can't agree/like ( I'm not saying nothing like an in deep criticism on the design. ), it is just audio opinion democracy.

Please read what a Ascent owner ( that change to the Eidolon ) say about:

++++ The Ascents are not particularly efficient, meaning that they like amplifiers that deliver lots of clean power. I have been running them with VAC 140 monoblocks, which is a great match, but they also sound great with good solid state amps. These particular speakers are the Mark II model. This means that the drivers and crossovers were upgraded from the original release. Eventually, Avalon used its experience in developing their massive and extremely pricey Osiris model to create the Eidolon, which has replaced the Ascents in their lineup of products. The Eidolon does all of the same things that the Ascents do, only better. +++++

other than what we can read, you say: +++ and a sensitive design with good efficiency. " ++++

well this owner thinks: ++++ The Ascents are not particularly efficient.... " +++++

You know another opinion: just democracy!.

And there are extreme opinions about, take a look:

++++I'll get straight to the point. The Vandersteen 1 B loudspeaker is, at $695 the pair, something of an embarrassment for its pricier transducing brethren in the High End. Not because it is better than the $7000 ProAc Response Three, $9200 Stax F41, or $15,000 Avalon Ascent Mk II , outstanding speakers with which I am personally familiar), but because it is so good at $695.00 that one must wonder why we would spend 10 times as much or more for an incremental improvement that is certainly not commensurate. " +++++

Returning to the " constant impedance " on the Ascents I can't find a real measure about but I find from the Eclipse and Avatar: where their impedance specs you can read: nominal 6 Ohms and no below 5.5 Ohms ( similar of what you posted on the Ascents. ) that in the Stereophile Eclipse review its REAL electrival impedance is far far from be " constant impedance ", not only that but has trouble about depending which amp you are using to handle. The speaker efficiency is too in the low side ( 86db ) like the Avatar and Ascent: not like you say: ++ with good efficiency ++++

Could you show me that Ascent " constant impedance " graph that you are speaking? and ( between other things ) that is one of its crossover design advantage?.

Maybe you misunderstood the Ascent " crossover advantages " or think that your opinion is the " good " one and maybe it is for you: no problem about, is fine with me: only permit to " speak/talk " my self opinion about ( that I'm not saying in any way that is the " universal true " and nothing but the true. ), Mark it is only other opinion: not big deal on...!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Halcro: It is nic to read about and that you are really satisfied with those stereo subwoofrs, good fo you: congratulations!!!!

+++++ " ..it's just that you may not be right ALL of the time.... " +++++

I never posted thinking in that way my whole attitude certainly it is not but maybe because of my English trouble what you read can/could seems like if I'm saying in that way but it is not, my attitude ( fo the good or bad ) is to help.

Normally what I post/posted have its foundation in facts/experiences that I already had somewhere ( like the subwoofers subject ) and what I do/did is only to share it with every one but this does not means " per se " that what works for me can/could work for you.

That's why I almost always say please try it before you speak about, this is main part of anyone audio learning curve, I learn/learned in this way: testing/trying, speak/talk on someting that I have no experience is useless for everyone.

Anyway, IMHO the best on this forum is that sometimes something that anyone of us posted can/could help to other people and this is one of my main targets when I post.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Mark: Like I already say it: just an opinion, pure democracy and no big deal about!!!

" Constant impedance ", eh?: is this a fact or an " assumption " ?. I already take advantage: jaja-ja!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Dgob: +++++ " I guess that means that my answer is a resounding "YES", I definitely needed sub's - even though I had not realised it before! " +++++

Your last sentence means ( between other things ) that if we can we should try it.

Nice to hear you are satisfied.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: This is what Gmorris posted in this thread sometime ago:

+++++ " To fully recreate the recording space you need the lower octaves even if the recording involves instruments sans the lower registers.

I was surprised at the improvements in detail and ambience retrieval with increased delicacy as a result of the subs on all types of recordings.

Adding a second sub to complete the stereo pair, improved the overall presentation markedly (some folkes claim that low bass is nondirectional and thus one sw is sufficient, but a stereo pair improved everything). The subs also made the overall presentation more articulate and dynamic. " +++++

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear mark: Yes, I'm only posted as a reference/opinion.

Have a good time.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear pryso: My " ask " to M.Levigne was because ( if I remember ) in their last three speakers in his audio system ( including the today ones ) he owned and own speakers that handle the low bass by self speaker powered woofers ( well I think that with his Kharma's he used the separate Kharma sub's ), so he already has a wide experience on the advantages to reduce the IMD on the speakers and the advantage to have dedicated drivers/amplifiers working in the low bass.

I hope he can read this and want to share his experiences about.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: Yes, absolutely!.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear friends: For almost seventh months my system was running with only one subwoofer ( left-right channel bass signals in mono way. ) due that the other one was down because a failure, five/six weeks ago this one was fixed thank to Velodyne and I want to share with all of you something about:

due that I own two similar subwoofers we try to fix it at home, first we have to know where the failure comes so we check ( through the sub in good condition ) every single module and we found that the failure comes from the amplifier module that with out the diagram was a very hard time to fix it so I contact Velodyne and they agree that the amplifier module was the problem and that I send it to repair ( amplifier module alone ).

I did it and ten days later I receive a " big " box with the amplifier module ( at least that was what I think at that moment ) and when I open the box I was surprised that they not only send me the amplifier module but the whole subwoofer modules ( including the metal rear plate ): they send me a whole new electronic subwoofer modules!!!!, my hat off to Velodyne.

Over those six months my ears/brain were totally accustom/equalized to that single subwoofer quality system performance.

I connect the second one and put some of my prefered Lp's and the quality performance of the system " suffer " a big improvement against the " one subwoofer " fashion, this improvement is on the quality performance level not on quantity.

Through this experience I confirm again that one subwoofer in an audio system is the ( almost ) wrong way to go.

IMHO nothing compares to two subwoofers in true stereo fashion!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Halcro: Yes 4 could be better but I never try it and yes 5000 is the ideal with no one in the room!

Anyway you can try it, but I think that two are more " comfortable ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
raul.

Halcro: Now I remember that article where comes those scientific studies about those 5,000 subs. I think that somewhere in this tread we can read it.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Johnnyb53: This are the experiences that an Agoner had in reference to that Soundstage subs article:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&340&4#340

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: Some weeks ago I read in one of the Agoner's virtual systems ( sorry not remember which one. ) that one of you made a tweak to a Velodyne DD subwoofers changing the internal wiring with good results.

So, this week I decide to make the same change with my Velodyne's HGS-15, that take me 3-4 hours to complete the job in both units ( btw, the first one is where I take more time because this was my first time to attemp about and have to learn. ). It is a shame that these great subs comes wired from woofer to amplifier with plain zip cords ( I don't know how comes in the latest DD series. ).

I just change the internal wiring ( 50-60cm ) on the subwoofers for Kimber Kable KCAG ( the one that I had on hand , very good indeed. ) and the quality improvement on the system performance improve in a way that I never imagine.

This is not only that the bass is more clear, precise and with better definion and tight feeel but the midrange and high frequencies improve too making that the system performs now with a better pristine/transparent and natural presentation that I never heard/hear it.

I assume that with the new cables the distortions goes down and that's what permit to achieve this really nice and paramount quality improvement.

Yes, it is worth the effort to do it.

If you want to make it my advise is that you be carefully on the job, of course that you can email me if you think I can help you about.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear friends: This last experience that improve the low bass performance confirms to me that one critical factor to achieve " stellar " near " perfect " top quality system performance is try to improve the low bass quality performance in our audio systems.

Of course that room treatment help a lot but the subwoofers alternative is a very good " road " to make it and when we already have it then work in deep to achieve the best on it.

Every single day that pass and that I listen my " new " system is an immense joy/enjoy of the musi like never before.

Subject is that real low bass is a desirable factor but the real subject is to have that real low bass in " pristine " condition, when you achieve this your " idea " of top system quality performance change: you discover(y) a " new " world that you have in " front " of you ( with some systems up-dates ) and that you don't know is there but you can have it.

IMHO as much as you improve that bass response ( lowering IMD too. ) as much you improve the whole/overall ( in all single sound reproduction areas. ) performance of your system.
Yes, I'm really exite/rouse about and IMHO I think that everyone has the " right " to hear this kind of performance level where I know you can make it.
Sometimes is difficult to express these top/new experiences in words and as a fact maybe we can understand in precise/deep way when we hear it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Utahusker: As you posted LaScala maybe can/could give you clean in room response down to 50-55 Hz no deep bass.

Now, you don't have to loose what you have, the " idea " is to improve what you ( we ) have.

The La Scala woofer crossover is 400 Hz that tell us that that woofer works near 600 Hz, a wide frequency range that makes that the IMD go high and against quality performance.

+++++ " I don't want to ruin that sound with a slower muddy bass response that a subwoofer would provide. " +++++

if you can please read here to understand about and to understand how the subs can/could help to improve the quality performance of your home audio system:

http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

This one could help you too: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&84&4#84

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jloveys: Like in many other audio topics there are a lot of mis-understood on some subjects.
The subwwofer one is full of false myths and non know-how about and that's why not so many people can take the huge advantage of the subwoofer great quality improvement in almost any audio system.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.