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@ibisghost
Thanks so much for contributing to this thread! As for the sound you are hearing in your room it would be great if you could post your system. Click on the virtual system area and at the top click "add a new system". It could be related to so many different things. I am sure it can get better, whatever the issue.
As for classic rock one that stands out as a favorite in atmos is Chicago. Man, those horns sound amazingly refreshed in this format. Depending on the mix sometimes it is like they are standing in front of you, sometimes they put you in the studio and wrap them around you like a horseshoe. I like when a solo horn takes the center channel and it just resonates in a very clear, real, articulate fashion.
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@julie_priest
most people who keep plugging all this Atmos stuff have no idea what proper 2-channel audio sounds like
Thanks for sharing, can you post your system and some pics in your profile so we can see your example?
Floyd Toole (look him up) uses the same layout in his home that I have in mine (key point, the MLP is equidistant between front and rear channels)
Where Dr. Toole uses passive speakers I chose to go with active. Check out Abbey Road studios layout (key point, MLP again equidistant). I decided to go with the tall stands for the height channels too, active speakers are a bit heavy:
Finally the measurements of my front L and R speakers in my room, two channel sounds fine:
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The audio world is filled with choices:
-tubes or solid state
-analog or digital
-CD or Spotify
oh, one more thing, would you like a subwoofer with that (or 2 or 3 or 4)?
Object based audio is something a LOT of members (subscribers to Tidal, Amazon or Apple Music) already have access to. It isn’t rare or hard to find. It’s easily accessed (backward compatible with whatever you are using now, even headphones). You can start "consuming" the object based audio tracks for as little as $100 for a pair of atmos compatible headphones. If you already have a stereo, it works (get the BACHH filters). If you already have a 5.1 system, it works (get an atmos compatible receiver), the height channels are optional. I don’t see much risk in trying it, that’s why I started this thread.
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Spatial audio all about taking marketshare:
In it, Eddy Cue said, "Since launch, the number of monthly Spatial Audio listeners has more than tripled, with more than 80 percent of worldwide subscribers enjoying the experience, while monthly plays in Spatial Audio have grown by over 1,000 percent."
Apple is all in on Spatial Audio. So much so that it bundled it with lossless audio and gave it away to subscribers for no additional cost — despite Apple paying more in royalty fees for those audio formats.
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not for me, thanks. budget already blown
Exactly why I started this thread, its a prevent strategy before your wallet hits E 🔥
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For the members that have 0 practical means to try object based audio I would recommend making channel based audio as immersive as possible using room treatments. Whenever I see a pic of a pair of expensive speakers next to a pristine selection of expensive components in a "naked" room it seems like a waste of good equipment. The acoustics in a room are at least 50% of the sound, maybe more. So, when you are budgeting for a system (it doesn’t matter what type, channel based or object based) make sure to budget for acoustics, room treatments, and a measurement device like REW, a Mini-DSP, etc. If the pics you posted of your system are in a room surrounded by hard, flat surfaces, a lot of windows, etc., think about doing an acoustic makeover for a MUCH more immersive channel based system.
When I had a professional acoustician who works with performance spaces, recording studios, etc. review the graph I posted above his response floored me. His comments were about what a good job I did in the BEFORE graph as in before the use of DSP. DSP is a great tool, but it ain’t a magic wand. You still gotta deal with the basics first. If I were starting all over I would just order a room kit from Sonitus for a one and done approach. If you got budget just hire an acoustician, it will likely be much less expensive than buying a new amp or new speakers. Check out the Sonitus website using this link:
Double Your Sound Quality
and if you need the help of an acoustician in the US see:
Acoustical Society of America
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In my opinion you can’t have a good object based system without a good channel based system. Object based audio is not an island that you have to leave channel based audio to sail off to. I advocate budgeting for both, why not have it ALL:
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More news on the growth of object based audio, just wanted to share. The Kota has no dog in this race, just sharing what is going on in the music business.
This was published a few days ago in Music Business Worldwide, click the link below for more info:
‘DOLBY ATMOS IS NOT JUST A GIMMICK. MUSIC IN 3D HAS THE POTENTIAL TO REPLACE STEREO.’
“Even skeptics have to admit how much more vivid and natural music sounds in 3D formats,” Stalter adds. “There are more and more products launched that are capable of Dolby Atmos, from mobile devices to sound bars up to car entertainment systems and many more.”
“This market is rapidly growing and it is foreseeable that music in 3D has the potential to replace Stereo just as Stereo did with Mono almost 50 years ago.”
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And if you got no space for a system in your house, there is always your car:
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@vonhelmholtz
That’s a great post, thanks and you budgeted according to your preferences, all good. If you are going to get another atmos concert bluray kraftewerk 3d: the catalogue is the best one I have tried so far. I’ll get the imagine dragons, thanks for the tip. The Firestick/Firecube is the only streamer I know that does both atmos music and hirez/ultra-hd AND the firestick is cheaper than an ATV4K or a shield. The voice search feature works pretty good too.
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@fittebd
For the poster that says their tuned 2 channel system is just as good as a 5.1 has not listened to a proper system
I disagree, you never know what mix you will prefer. I have EJ in two ch, 5.1, and atmos. I have him in lossy spotify, redbook CD, MQA and 24/192 hirez.
Having a 5.1 system you can choose, having only stereo you get what you get.
I think the bigger point is you can have both.
+10!! Agree
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@britamerican
Really happy you joined the conversation, nice to see you in this thread, welcome. As for Dr. Toole he didn’t set that up all by himself, Kevin Voeckes tuned and calibrated it and I am sure Harman provided all the resources he needed for the setup. In Dolby’s guidlines the MLP is setup toward the back of the room. That wasn’t the best setup for my room. I was lucky as all get out to get advice from Anthony Grimani, Wilfried Van Baelen (auro 3d founder, owner of galaxy studios), and Marti Humphries (owner of immersive audio studio The Dubstage). Wilfried was adamant to have the MLP equidistant between front and back walls. He also recommended ceiling treatment and bass traps on the ceiling. The aurlex geofusors you see on my ceiling are back filled with polyfill and double as bass traps. When Marti saw my pics before doing any treatment he said all of the wood paneling and dry wall were terrible for acoustics, gave me some tips, and also introduced me to Wilfried. Anthony Grimani couldn’t have been nicer and more supportive in responses to my e-mails. It was AFTER I did all this I saw Dr. Tooles and Abbey Road studios layouts were basically the same style I ended up with. We all use an equidistant MLP, use monitors mounted high as height channels, use a center height, wide channels and VOG channels. Dr Toole uses 4 subs, Abbey Road has subs on the ceiling. I compromised and used 3 subs and the one on the back wall is mounted high on the wall instead of the ceiling. The people in this professional community really seem to care about the end user and were happy to help.
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@deep_333
There is a significant technical learning curve for correct implementation of object based audio that would be very difficult for technologically challenged old men.
Of course you are right. But then I see the shrines to the gods of music the geezer crowd has built over the years in the system area and I go, well, they are doing something right. A LOT of members already do 5.1 and buying a receiver these days isn't that big of a leap.
Now, some of these DIY guys can make speakers, tube amps, and stuff you can't imagine. For them an atmos setup would be like making cereal for breakfast.
It can be very difficult to go back to stereo after it is experienced on a rig that means business.
Yep, roger that, I like stereo for listening on my porch, my patio, my office but when its time for a 2 hour playlist of critical listening it is generally either upmixed to MCH or atmos in the media room. With Atmos there is so MUCH content I still want to get to and they keep dropping more.
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@moonwatcher
I’d rather studios simply create great sounding masters in two channels. That would be a START in the right direction.
I think you will really like this 10 minute video by producer Steven Wilson. He discusses how the process he uses is exactly what you describe, getting the BEST two channel master before doing anything else, especially with old recordings.
It Suddenly Became All About Atmos
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@moonwatcher
just don’t see it becoming a mass market thing when so many are happy with a soundbar in front of their TVs.
The percent of people that will convert their living room to a 7.1.4 setup is probably about the same % as the number of people willing to pay over $2000 for a pair of speakers (few).
However, that doesn’t really matter to AAPL. They have backward compatibility with ALL of their products with spatial audio, see:
Apple sees Spatial Audio as a differentiator between Apple Music and its rivals, and more so than it does Lossless music. Every song in the Apple Music library is now available in Lossless, but Apple’s Oliver Schusser, vice president of Apple Music and Beats, says it’s necessarily a niche.
"[The] challenge is it doesn’t play on any headphone in the world over Bluetooth or any wireless connection," he said, "and that is by a country mile the number one way how people consume music these days."
"And so," continues Schusser, "we went out and said we would like to have a feature for the mass market that works on pretty much every device and where people notice a difference."
"We now have more than half of our worldwide Apple Music subscriber base listening in spatial audio and that number is actually growing really, really fast," he adds. "We would like the numbers to be higher, but they are definitely exceeding our expectations."
Apple Says Spatial Audio is a Hit
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@moonwatcher
Would you rather have a "so-so" multi-channel set up or a "great" two-channel one for the amount of money you have at your disposal?
I split my budget for a preamp almost down the middle, I have a nice Sony Signature preamp/dac/headphone amp that does 2 channel and a Marantz home theater processor that has a "pure direct" feature for two channel plus everything else. So basically two units at around $2000 a piece instead of one $5K+ home theater processor. That’s just me, you could certainly tilt it toward either format. I found getting my acoustics right made made a bigger difference than the hardware I chose.
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@rajugsw
Thanks very much for that information. I don’t "need" a preamp but I really want that F360. First, I am a Jim Fosgate fan and highly respect his engineering skills and passion. Now that he is gone that pre will be likely his last design. Next, I love the features with the balanced connections and all the knobs to "diddle" with the sound as Zeos says. I could drop that unit into my desktop system so all those knobs are right at my fingertips and would add rear speakers to get quad. Or, I could drop it in my main system. The price is so reasonable for what you get IMO. I see tube preamps going for $$$. The idea of running both a digital and an analog surround system side by side is VERY appealing.
Does the F360 hold its own with the BAT (I think the BAT is around $10K right)
I have an Onkyo 9 channel receiver circa 2019 in the mancave and love it. That company is all about quality and convenience.
BTW, your room looks great. Have you thought about adding some room treatments to your ceiling? From the pic it looks a bit like a hard surface.
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Do you have a link to the videos @rajugsw ? Looking forward to checking them out. Very good to know about your experience sounds like you dialed it in for your room.
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@unreceivedogma
Wow, that will "git er done"
I think I saw the comments about the nice cartridge you were gifted from an artist in another thread. I admire your system, nice job!
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@rajugsw
Wow! Very professional, I am inspired to use my own headphone amp more after watching, Thanks!
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I have been checking out Amazon Music Atmos offerings and I like the way they are organized. Listened to Sting's playlist last night, Desert Rose was a highlight in Atmos Music, especially the beginning. Michael Buble, "I'm Feeling Good", WOW.
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@stuartk
Noted, thanks. The idea of spending $$$$ on channel based audio and 0 on object based audio (which is growing beyond all expectations according to AAPL) is simply unfathomable to me when more than likely members already have access to the content through their current streaming service.
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@jeffrey125
Thanks for posting this and streamers are the aapl target market. Lossless doesn’t work on bluetooth or wireless streaming. AAPL spatial audio does and works with all of their products. Look at all these devices that are backward compatible.
Who can compete with this lineup? Its the "kids" on tiktok that are going to be making content in spatial audio and their followers consuming it on bluetooth.The gaming market is taking notice (mostly kids right) and X-Box is atmos compatible and Sony PlayStation just joined the party. This is the "mass market" adopting which gives me a bit of a smile. Movies and music of course. Movie theaters have atmos movies, they are live streaming atmos concerts , using atmos at live shows in vegas. This is all backward compatible with the streaming market. The people dragging their heels kicking and screaming? Uhhhh, let’s just say "traditionalists":
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@jeffrey125
Any real audiophile is not using Bluetoot.
That is exactly why atmos is growing so quickly, if you were aapl and had to present a business model to the shareholders would you want to include as many AAPL customers as possible or eliminate every customer that isn’t an audiophile? You can consume atmos music as you choose (yes, it works with two speakers, you don’t need to buy more). BTW, this album is fantastic in atmos:
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The point of this thread is if you are spending money on audio, allocate some budget to object based audio. The content producers are "future proofing" their music while producing a more engaging experience for fans. Why not "future proof" your MLP? See:
Dolby Atmos allows music labels and publishers to future-proof their music while providing a new listening experience to fans. In the past, new music tech was locked behind proprietary formats like DVD-A and SACD. It made listening to new music tech a chore, since these formats barely lasted the decade which they were introduced. Dolby Atmos has become ubiquitous among the music industry, not least of all thanks to Apple Music support. Many artists and IP owners are rushing to get their music mixed and remastered in this new format.
Dolby Atmos music boosts listener engagement and can help refresh or revitalize an older catalog. It’s also satisfying to listen to for audiophiles because you can hear the difference between instrument clarity and separation in the mix.
See:
Mixing and Mastering in Dolby Atmos-What You Should Know
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I don’t see the need for disagreement. I never stated that one format is better (although certain mixes can be better). My OP is simply to budget for both formats. You can get a great 2 channel preamp for about $2500. You can get a great processor capable of atmos for about the same price. If you choose to buy a 2 ch preamp for 100% of your budget or a processor for 100% of your budget you won’t see me chastising you for your choices.
I will say that ALL atmos capable processors can do two channel so consider that when budgeting. I didn’t "need" to budget for a 2 channel preamp at all, I did so because the additional features complimented my system.
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When it comes to budgeting for an Atmos capable processor I would carefully consider the FEATURES you need. Sometimes the difference between a flagship processor in a companies lineup and the next model down are the features rather than the sound quality. Why pay for a 16 channel processor if your room is maxed out at 9?
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I haven’t posted much about budgeting for receivers as they change so quickly. The general rule is the model that is about one level down from the flagship is usually the best bang for the buck. I think if you are more into movies a receiver is fine. There are some really high priced receivers that are billed as being able to do two channel very well. Personally I prefer active speakers and a good processor. I do have a man cave outfitted with nice 9 channel Onkyo receiver and some JBL speakers. It is nice for movies and casual listening actually very good and for the money it cost fantastic bang for the buck. But I can’t see it as more than a good "entertainment" system and I prefer to do critical listening in my media room.
As for these new separate 9 and 11 channel amps, they might be great but it makes you wonder how a single power supply can swing all those channels. With 2 or 5 channel amps you need a rack of them. With active speakers that are internally biamped, active crossovers, and an all in one system designed by the engineer has so many advantages from a SQ perspective as well as a price advantage.
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@britamerican
ATMOS and other spatial audio is already taking off. It costs them nothing and can provide a better experience. Of course they are going to use and listen to it. As the mastering gets better, they won’t go back to flat 2-channel.
The mad irony of your astute observation are the people who are complaining the most (at least in this thread) are the people who spent a LOT of money for that flat 2-channel. Rather than embrace the change and the mad rush of new adopters of atmos/spatial audio (over 80% of all apple music subscribers have tried it and its growing according to AAPL) and finally getting better quality audio they condemn it. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they properly auditioned it in their own system.
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+1, great album:
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I saw the video when the engineer said he didn’t get the economics. I can’t say I have any data but I do understand the business model. Spotify has the largest market share. AAPL wants to take market share by offering something different, that is backward compatible with all of its products, that works with bluetooth or wireless, and that its customers can notice an improvement. Lossless doesn’t work on some bluetooth or wireless connections, spatial audio does. Users don’t get charged for the new format, aapl eats it in the hope of luring customers from competitors. Remember, aapl isn’t just apple music, its an ecosystem and they wanna crossell you phones, headphones, the works.
The musicians and labels get paid evertime you stream a song and if a new format gets more plays its a win.
The engineer gets new business from updating old recordings and recording new music in atmos.
Dolby collects licesning fees to profit from the R&D they did to develop it.
I can’t believe this engineer can’t connect the dots.
See:
https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/29/why-spatial-audio-is-the-future-of-the-music-industry-even-if-you-hate-it
As far as the audio engineer community and atmos that ship has sailed, see:
https://aes2.org/events-calendar/2023-aes-international-conference-on-spatial-and-immersive-audio/
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9 x Grammy winner mix engineer Manny Marroquin at Larrabee Studios:
"Anyone I play atmos for, it changes their mindset, man that was the most amazing thing I heard"
https://youtu.be/JmQN477uSbE?feature=shared
Interesting that you don’t need a big space to get great sound, notice the wide channels wall mounted to the far left and right amd the height channels mounted above:
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So, you wanna have it ALL right? Start with a MCH preamp (must have XLR outputs and decode atmos) from Marantz, Mcintosh, Anthem, Arcam, Rotel, etc. (Keep the two channel preamp you likely already have, this isn’t an either or system).
Speakers, easy peasy. Start with two and then add on as you like.
BUT, what do you do about an amp? Keep it simple, able to expand with your system as you add channels, and able to do high quality music. I recommend going with monoblocks.
Check out monoblocks from Emotiva, Van Alstine, Nuprime, Parasound and Anthem. If you are a tube fan Carver, Black Ice Audio,and Allnic offer monoblocks.
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And the broken record just keeps on playing...
and hipsters don’t use LOL anymore
I don’t have a TT, 😎 LOL
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@facten
@kota1 - "Why would I want to BUY multiple sources, dacs, and preamps today that will be boat anchors within five years?"
What hi-end manufacturers are you seeing divorcing themselves from 2 channel audio that this is going to be the case?
(This is a more appropriate thread to continue this topic so I moved my reply.)
The answer is Sound United, as they were just acquired by Medical Supplier Masimo, Harmon Kardon was acquired by Samsung, and the "high end " industry is being replaced by mobile headphone listeners and home theater, by far.
Atmos is backward compatible with headphones, cars, TV’s, and every variation of speaker setup you want want, from soundbars, a pair of speakers, five speakers, seven speakers, sixteen, etc. Atmos is being streamed online in video and audio, live TV broadcasts, in movie theaters and live performances. Don’t get me started on gaming and VR but you can look it up.
Do you remember what the iphone did to the blackberry? When apple adopted spatial audio it changed the music industry forever, I am not investing $$$ into what I perceive as an audio version of the blackberry.
Next question?
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@invalid
Congratulations on your 1001 post! Thanks for your feedback.
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This thread isn’t about good, better, best, its about budgeting. I know you can build a great system for less than $1000, right @mahgister ? You can budget for a system that fits your lifestyle and decor right @bikeboy52?
@webking185 is 100% correct when he says don’t blow 100% of your budget on home theater. You shouldn’t blow 100% of it on stereo either.
What I am saying is there are companies that spent buku bucks on the blackberry infrastructure and all of their execs carried one in 2003. Why would you spend 100% of your budget on stereo when apple is doing to apple music and spatial audio what they did with the iphone when it crushed the blackberry, motorola, etc? Who is going to stop amazon and apple combined? Five years later those companies that invested heavily in blackberry, poof, they never recouped their investment and had to start over with apple or android. I LOVE two channel stereo BUT don’t own a TT or any records. It makes a difference in how I budget right? I do subscribe to Tidal, Amazon Music, Prime Video, Vudu and Netflix. I do own lossless bluerays of both music and movies with atmos soundtracks. It makes a big difference in how I budget. The only WRONG way to budget is the ostrich method, which is obviously prevalent when I see some of these posts.
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Who is the atmos market? Young people (including males and females) with phones and earbuds listening with bluetooth and wireless. Gamers and VR enthusiasts. Owners of home theaters atmos comes in all budgets from soundbars to $1,000,000 custom built home theaters. Movie goers. Audiophiles who own multichannel preamps.
Who is the "audiophile" market? Baby boomers with disposable income that are predominantly male. Who else is buying stereos that cost over $20K? A very, very, small population.
Can you see why you should diversify your audio budget?
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@mahgister
One market does not replace the others...
What about the Blackberry being relaced with the iPhone?
The CD being replaced by streaming?
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@facten
That is a great reply, thank you, it is clear that even high end manufacturers like Wilson are partnering with Dolby Atmos market because customers want it. When I refer to boat anchors in five years I am referring to DAC’s and products that use semiconductors. A $5000 dac five years ago is very close to a boat anchor compared to what a $500 dac can get you today. Digital preamps/processors that include dac’s are a GREAT topic re: budgeting. The Marantz 8805 that was $5K five years ago dropped in price as soon as the 8805A with 8K HDMI came out and dropped again when the 16 channel AV10 came out. If you don’t need 8K and/or 16 channels its going for about half of what it would 5 years ago. You can apply that same strategy with a digital two channel preamp/dac.
I love the strategy of getting a processor that is one level down from the flagship and a two channel preamp with HT bypass for about the same price as one flagship unit (either MCH or 2CH).
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I know we have members here with large collections of physical media that makes sense to tilt your budget that way. Unless you don't stream at all I think you need to budget for this:
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@kennyc
When I read your post I don't know what your system is, what experience you have with object based audio, nada. I get that you seem to feel a budget of 100% channel based audio and 0 to object based audio is how you roll. It is your money, good luck with whatever it is you are pursuing.
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