You apprently have no idea what you’re talking about. Sheldrake is a PhD from Cambridge who has written a slew of books including the landmark The Presence of the Past. Intellectual is as intellectual does. It’s all in the concept, Ollie. You have to start somewhere. That’s where the genius is. The math can be done later by the drudges. A journey starts with a single step, grasshopper. "Presence of the Past"? LOL. How about "Absence of Evidence." Being an apologist or apostle of woo woo does not make you an expert, just another guessing fool. I assume you consider Deepak Chopra a genius too by your metric? Along with rudimentary English composition, was there an introduction to logic class offered during your freshman year at E school? Not show up much to class? |
I did do a research project in grad school that won an award. It was on effects of earthquakes in the New Madrid Missouri area where the largest earthquakes in US history occurred. Even there I would not worry about it affecting my sound. It’s a silly topic really.
Just my 2 cents. I know gk cares. 😉 Agreed. Its a red herring. Completely meaningless. |
Actually The Presence of the Past is filled with logically laid out evidence of Morphic resonance. Such as? Speculative Biology is fun reading much like the Tao of Physics and other quantum pablum. Much of it has the same intellectual merit as science fiction. There is some merit in it but not enough to build a company around. Saying there is no evidence is actually a typical undergraduate mistake in logic, you know, since you have not even looked at the evidence. Again, quote something specific for us as examples. For a formal deconstruction of Sheldrake's "crimes against reasons can be found here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/feb/05/evolution Btw I have more semester hours than you do and more difficult course material. No you don't. I have 19 yrs of formal education and training. You have 4. So you can drop the pretense that you’re some some of Master debater. No pretense needed. I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Based on the construction of both your arguments and garbled mentation, one has to wonder. The problem with your logic is you use a PhD, your Pop, to refute Morphic resonance. no, it refutes itself. But that doesn’t make sense, it’s an appeal to authority. Ironically, that is what Deepak Chopra (and by sins of association) Sheldrake pull: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/07/professor-jerry-coyne-explains-why-deepak-chopra-is-nothing-more-than-a-fraud/ Just because your Pop is a PhD in the SAME FIELD doesn't mean Morphic resonance is NOT REAL. That's a, you know, fallacious argument. That wasn't the argument Einstein. Hel-looo? Same with using your biology background an Dumpty ump years in school. Strictly a fallacious argument. Follow? No, I don't follow. I think we need an addendum aphorism to Einstein's quip about education being what's left. How about this: Knowledge is what remains after time has robbed the mind of facts. The mind then attempts to fill in the blanks through a process called confabulation which to the impassive observer appears like magical thinking. Enter the neoshamans Sheldrake and Chopra..... |
I t’s always nice to engage someone who keeps coming back with these really good examples of illogical arguments AND attitude. LOL what’s funny is you are blissfully unaware of what you are even arguing against, I.e., Morphic resonance. Hel-loo! Do you realize these are simply conversations with yourself? Your lack of self-insight staggers me. Furthermore, you are simply too scatty intellectually to maintain a focused argument. No wonder you maxed out at the undergrad level. All you are able to do is scat with half-baked Barnes and Nobles level scientific knowledge. I would buy tickets to the Geoff Kait thesis defense. Morphic resonance in audio.....lol. But at the end of the day, I find you highly entertaining. Carry on. The Seismology report is apparently forthcoming. That should provide some grist of the mill.... |
Firstly, let me say I eat seismologists for breakfast. All this idle talk about seismologists is making me hungry.
Well, well, what do we have here? I will give everyone a hint with a snippet from the good old DSMR: DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features: Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
Exaggerating your achievements and talents
Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people
Requiring constant admiration
Having a sense of entitlement
Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations
Taking advantage of others to get what you want
Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
Being envious of others and believing others envy you
Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner I thought Virginia is for lovers. Don’t be a hater, be a lover. Shame about UVa. It used to an elite institution when I went there but it looks like creeping state U-ism must’ve taken hold.
It is a shame. Don't get me started. UVa has never enjoyed proper financial support from the state. It should really, truly be a private entity. |
Wow, you guys!
I was telling a non-audiophile friend of mine just the other day what a good bunch of people there are in the audio world, particularly on Audiogon. I still believe this. Perhaps our shared passion for a hobby that I find paramount to golf in its illusiveness (Bagger Vance: "A game that can’t be won only played") is making us lose perspective?
I have dealt my share of hurtful jabs recently, but thanks to the kind admonishment by charles1dad and the pristine example set by Almarg, I have seen the folly of my snide behavior and regret my thankfully short-lived yet self-serving war on others of contrary audio ilk. Please accept my apology.
Can we all move just a bit in that direction please?
Sincerely and with earnest intention,
Dave Dave, thanks for chiming in. This rough and tumble thread is for a--holes only with Mr. Kait and myself leading the charge! This is definitely not a thread for PC weenies. In all seriousness, my dialogue with Mr. Kait is in jest only (and my weak attempt at an impersonation of him....) The Seismologist's input will be educational and a good springboard for real discussion now that we have gotten all the trash talking out of our systems. |
hi dlcockrum. its all in jest. I agree with the sentiments behind PCness, but the controlling elements always leave me a little concerned.
If you have ever spent time on Audioasylum, AG is fairly tame. The beer bottles fly over there..... |
The internet was created as a research/communication tool. Unfortunately, a lot of what passes for facts is itself poorly researched but people are lazy and misinterpret fiction for facts. |
I agree. AS has gotten edgier and more clique-like as of late. I have noticed an ubiquitous online trend towards angry trolling. Life is more toxic than ever and people are stressed. What better catharsis than trolling? |
Klipsch suck. And more to the point they’re not even isolated. What kind of low rent MidFi establishment is that dude running? You missed the point of the article (which is not surprising since your critical thinking skills are those of a dull undergraduate with an attention deficit). For the record, Klipsch speakers properly modified and with the right equipment can sound very good. They are not quite up to the level of your morphic resonanator Walkman but they can be a lot of fun. |
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Just follow the golden rule and things will be fine. Internet changes nothing there. The golden rule here is talk trash unto others as they would talk trash to you. It actually works both way due perhaps to the rather poor education system, I.e., a lot of facts are misinterpreted as fiction. Other countries are probably more open minded and better educated; has anyone seen the tests scores these days? Geez! In the US the education hierarchy appears to be BS, More BS and finally Piled Higher and Deeper. Yes, we are the bottom of the barrel among developed countries. Still, the internet is a lazy man's research tool. No sweat. No going to the stacks. No discipline. Just imaginary knowledge. Finland and parts of Asia are top of the barrel due to rigorous (and often rote) teaching. BUT, we still lead the world in terms of creative and free thinking, Nobel prizes, patents and innovation. Others can only steal, copy or try to regulate our ideas. |
mapman
13,847 posts
10-31-2016 3:18pm
Agear, critical thinking requires work and effort and a certain degree of humility even. keep on dreaming!
Good comeback! Brutal! :-) Map-o-Rama!
That was directed at you Einstein. BTW, the snippet from the DSMR was pretty accurate. What say ye? |
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Hi geoffkait,
I recognize those traits so well in myself. Like looking in a mirror when I don’t spend any time seeking God.
I have a sign in my listening room, "BE SURE TO TASTE YOUR WORDS BEFORE YOU SPIT THEM OUT". I make sure to stop and read it each and every morning.
Best to you Geoff, really,
Dave Dave, you are the anti-Kait and too refined a soul for this nasty band of philistines. Yes, those traits are all inherent to "flesh." The DSMR simply refers to a more pathologic, higher frequency of expression. That is true for all axis II personality disorders. An interesting side note would be what smoldering, occult psychiatric disorder drives audio? OCD? Would a pill make all this go away? |
LIGO has the world’s greatest experts on vibration isolation. Invite them to this thread to educate us....or conduct a video interview. |
LIGO places all the detectors in a very high vacuum. Do you think that helps with your issue? As I have stated I’m a big fan of damping the top plate of my or any iso systems as some vibration from the floor is obviously being transmitted to the component, not to mention any self induced noise or acoustic wave influences. My devices - like all mass on spring devices - allow *ease of motion* in direction of interest, ease of motion being the opposite of inertia, no? Very stiff materials are good for resisting bending moments and using very hard materials (recall the NASA grade diamond hardness ceramics) are excellent for allowing vibrations to exist the system rapidly.
Have I missed anything? You have missed everything as nothing concrete has been stated or verified (much like your guru Sheldrake). "My devices...allow ease of motion in the direction of interest..."? Say what? As the OP, the intellectual innuendo behind this thread is this: does any data exist to justify the use of stands with electronics? Thus far, we have have paranormal theory and talk of the occult influence of seismologic phenomena but nothing more. Anyone? |
Good discussion (mostly) on reducing/eliminating external vibration. What about internal vibration of components? I may have missed that earlier in the thread or elsewhere...
Best to you geoffkait,
Dave
You have not missed anything since that point has been obfuscated and thus my attempt to refocus the thread. Seismic juju is a red herring as is discussion of speakers, etc. Does vibration of any form effect electrical performance in electronics and why? Sheldrake and his magic carpet ride of morphic resonance is not an acceptable answer. Someone can start another thread on mysticism and audio or religion and audio and what belief structures facilitate joy in audio. Are we trying to enter into the holy of holies through music, etc. That would be interesting but back to the subject at hand. |
Actually that’s not true. But that’s what a troll would say. Maybe time to head to the library, eh? Of you’re looking for data you need look no further than the fact more than 10,000 audiophiles have purchased Vibraplane isolation. Oh, wait I almost forgot. You’re a skeptic that cannot be convinced of anything. You probably think it’s paranormal or group hypnosis. To be so skeptical about vibration isolation, you know, 20 years after the introduction of vitbration isolation to audiophiles doesn’t really reflect well on your progress in this hobby. You call yourself Ag Ear but can you even hear?
That's not proof of concept. Since you cannot generate a valid argument or data, maybe having just one of the 10,000 philes chime in on their experiences. We have heard your jingles one too many times. Yawn.... |
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Funny. 88% reduction at 20 Hz is NOT normal. You guys apparently still don’t understand isolation or what a low pass filter actually is. What is not mentioned in the report - but is obviously the case - is that at frequencies higher than 20 Hz the isolation effectiveness is even higher than 88%, for purposes of discussion circa 97% at 30 Hz and 99.5% at 40 Hz. Those number are fairly typical of ANY reasonably good mass-on-spring isolation device. Furthermore, it’s as obvious as the nose on your face that the 88% reduction was compared to the case without the isolation. You guys just can’t seem to catch a break. ;-) Neither it seems can you. Where are your measurements Einstein or is this a skill set long forgotten in the fugue state of your "education"? |
Has anyone here tried putting their equipment on bed mattresses? |
Now this is the kind of third party corroboration that makes me sit up and listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5hBXr3aJusI believe its a well known independent lab in NYC. Live band with 1400 watts across 2 18’s house sound with levels of +104 db.... Look Ma....no springs....just lowly SS stands. |
That’s how I see it too Geoff (your summary on page 10). Approach addressing those low frequency vibrations coming up into the equipment stand, and the components therein, however you choose, but address them you should. What on Earth is there to argue about in regard to that? It is simply, inarguably, fact. IMHO. How so? Which part of the seismic boogie man spectrum are you referring to and why? |
Duplicate that experiment with your mattress springs Geoff or have one of your customers chime in (still crickets on that request....)
Geoff, you were clearly an English major at whatever community college you went to (one of the swirling, skatty, Jack Kerouac style which does actually require any real learnin'). Wikipedia and Barnes & Nobles don't hand out engineering degrees. No red blooded engineer would be caught dead in bed with Sheldrake unless of course he renounced "science" after a Ayahuasca-fueled vision quest in the Peruvian rain forests..... |
The combination of roller bearings and either metal or air springs (which decouple in the vertical plane, providing isolation) provide isolation in all three axis down to perhaps 3Hz, about as good as you can do outside of the $2000-$3000 Newport and MinusK tables, and the Townshend Seismic Pods at about half that. I’ll let Geoff speak in behalf of his own springs! Based on what measurements? Geoff does not have any actual data (or customer feedback). Do you? |
Robert/audiopoint-- if you would be so kind as to send me a pair of Sistrum Platforms sized for a Magico Q3 I'd be delighted to perform the comparison and report back -- just an open offer. My experiences moving from the Magico Q3 spikes (into wood flooring on concrete in an urban, highly traffic and construction affected room) to the Townshend podiums are on record. I would agree that the difference moving from spikes to the spring based platform was not at all subtle, one sounded like real instruments while the other sounded like a PA system but I'm open to other approaches to the same end Good for you Folk. SS does have a demo provision. You will need some extra muscle to set them up and it takes a few days to settle but it should be educational in your splendid room/system.... |
Speakers do not generally behave microphonically but they sure do excite vibrations in everything else. Proper cabinet damping and use of isolation stands and/or rubber an be essential to reduced unwanted sympathetic vibrations. Same goes for anything in the room - heavy curtains may help with windows a heavy rug may help with a floor - tapestries may help with vibrating detached gyprock and on and on.... Most speakers are poorly designed in this regard as are most generic listening rooms. These stands can make a big difference on speakers for this fact alone. Electronics are usually challenged by ground loops, stray EM and power source noise that is not filtered well enough. Most of the noise in electronics comes from stray current through leaky components, heat and in general poor circuit design - so vibration pads or cones are unlikely to have any benefit although vibration damping may ultimately protect the longevity of electronics in extreme environments. I have spoken with manufactures of electronics (and owned their gear) who have gone to great lengths to mechanically ground internal components including transformers in addition to elaborate schemes of electrical isolation, etc. Proper mechanical and electrical grounding schemes have a profound impact on sonics. I agree that stray EM/RFI is a source of much sonic juju and is one reason why many philes have spent so much energy on various grounding boxes, etc. That is a whole other convo though. shadorne, since you are the Ayatollah of rock & rolla, putting SS stands or any other products mentioned here under your subs and/or speakers would surprise you.... |
You’re very confused. As well as a slow learner. With 3 small springs I can double the dynamic range.
Along with teleport the listener to a seething cauldron of Sheldrakish morphic resonance....;) Please explain how springs double dynamic range? |
Oh, a slow pitch, eh? Springs double the dynamic range the same way they double the S/N ratio. By decreasing mechanical noise sufficiently. Noise, you know, the denominator of the term S/N. So it would be fair to say springs can double the dynamics and the resolution. Follow?
Dare I go one step further and say by reducing mechanical vibration for the CD player the (analog) optical reading process is improved significantly, thereby greatly improving the digital signal downstream? Nonsense. What E-school did you theoretically attend again? |
Can't validate the doubling part (no measuring equipment), but the improvement in the sound quality of my system with the Solid-Tech Discs of Silence (spring footers) under my SACD player and also springs underneath my amplifier yielded significant improvements in lowering the noise floor, reducing distortion, and at least the perception that dynamic range and S/N ration greatly improved. dlcockrum, I am not sure anyone has validated that. Mr. Kait certainly has not. I have used a litany of "isolation" devices and they all have an effect in one way or another. It would theoretically be possible to measure (with the appropriate software) changes in jitter performance of power conditions, cables, and yes even mattress springs, cones, etc. It would be fun to find out: http://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/index.html#93gQlSDoQbQHAYeT.97 |
Since your so called education - what was it again, flowers or something? - seems to have omitted any electronics or physics I suggest you should probably keep your yap shut, you know, since when you open it, it removes all doubt as to whether or not you’re a fool. There can be no doubt about your motives, however. Yuk, yuk. How does mechanical noise theoretically ameliorated by your spring magically become part of the "N" in a S/N reading and how did you measure it....or is it more this another intuitively-based, Sheldrakian orgasm you had in the rain forrest? Which community college in NOVA was it again??? |
I have used cones and spikes of many types (not those from Star Sound), sorbothane feet, vintage Audio Technica footers, wood blocks, brass footers and probably a few others, and never could I say that any of these gave my system better sound across the board like the springs do. I obviously have not tried everything (not even close), but the cost/benefit ratio of these springs is ridiculous. Just my experience. No horse in this race and no disrespect intended to anyone. Dave, I believe you. What sorts of amps? I have noticed the best effects under tube amps. Starsound stands have a much more profound impact than their cones. That being said, the more things vibrate, the more pronounced the results of any of these technologies (room>subs>speakers>TT>CDP>tubed gear>SS and digital gear). One of my motivations for this thread was a theoretical basis for the effect on electronics and why. There is little to no data to be found. Just lots of woo woo and strong pseudo-scientific opinions. That does not mean the answer cannot be found or that their application is not valid..... |
Uh, at least two examples of measurements for vibration isolation devices were already provided. Not to mention the landmark physical and theoretical treatise on vibration isolation - as it relates to audio - published in Stereophile magazine more than 20 years ago. Hel-loo! By the way, I really like the way you sneaked the word "theoretical" in there, as if you knew anything about the theoretical physics, or any physics for that matter, involved. Do you label Everything you don’t understand you label woo or pseudo-science? The sky is the limit at Imagination U. What you posted earlier from some crusty folks at Stereophile can hardly be labelled a treatise. Again, show me the the measurements whey a spring doubles dynamic range. Stop babbling and cough up some actual data. |
randy-11
223 posts
11-18-2016 4:47pm
I agree that the mods should close this thread and get rid of the troll
If we got rid of all the trolls on this thread there wouldn't be anyone left to post.
😥 That would be troll singular. Please expound on why a spring doubles dynamic range? Is that before or after they are treated in that tinfoil wrapped Microwave aka a "morphic resonator"..... |
Folk, let us know how your demo turns out.... |
Remember that the SS stands takes days to settle so start with those and then flip to the Townsend. You are in for a surprise given all the aspersion cast upon their humble "cone" based technology. The walls of my listening room are engineered around their technology and it crushes everything else I have heard. It has a vibratory life of its own like a tuning fork. It is not some disembodied stereo which is what most systems I have heard at shows and in homes sound like. Imagine an orchestra without the room in play. Just plain silly.
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An interesting test would be spectrum analysis of speaker output with and without stands. While the Youtube video of the Townsend product is visually intriguing, it tells us nothing about changes in frequency performance and output.
Will the spring cause cancellation of the smaller motor forces of mids and highs? With attenuation of high frequencies, I believe there will be a perceived increase in bass output due to a change in spectral balance.
Like using a spring as an endpin on a violin, I would assume that there will be attenuation of dB output and thus my prediction is that the SS stands will be louder and more dynamic. I could be wrong. Look forward to hearing your findings. Wish I could be there as well.
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Folk, it will be an undertaking that takes a second set of hands. Having a concrete floor is a bonus and will not cause uncontrolled room rumble. I have had speakers of a similar weight on stands with wood floors and it did not cause issues.
Magico's are indeed well engineered (compared to a lot of speakers) but should still benefit. My previous speakers (Mosaic Illuminations) were absolute tanks and benefited from SS stands.
It is interesting that the Townsend stands seem to decouple the speakers from the room which I guess can be an advantage depending on room nodes, etc |
Huh? As Townshend points out on his web site, and as I’ve pointed out as well, isolating the speakers has two advantages:
(1) it prevents low frequency vibration from getting up into the speakers and affecting wiring and electronics, RCA connectors, etc. and (2) it prevents speaker cabinet vibrations from feeding back via the floor to system cabling on the floor, electronics, turntable, CD player, what have you. That’s also, by no coincidence, what my springs do for medium-size speakers and Subwoofers. All theoretical advantages only. Again, the raison d'etre of this thread. |
Further to the speaker room interface I wonder if my room, being an Art Noxon design intended to be sound isolating (i.e with bass traps and damping built into the walls) may be less conducive to a SS type "grounding" arrangement in so far as the excess energy has no easy path to ground and hence causes problems in the room. That is an interesting question. What does Art use for dampening again? My hunch is it would work just fine as demonstrated by the video of an 18 inch sub fed 1400 watts and spitting out 104dB. I know people who use Sistrum racking with rooms like yours. That would be a question for Robert. My room is a hybrid design in that sense. I have greenglue sandwiches of drywall floating on an isolation clip system engineered by Cascade Audio on the external walls and ceiling along with spray foam insulation for noise reduction purposes. Corners and waveguide elements use sand and/or foam insulation. The internal walls use the SS constructs only. |
Depending on room nodes? Huh? What on Earth are you referring to? Not anything to worry about with your Walkman..... |
Agear -- are you bent on simply ignoring all evidence to the contrary and pimping SS above all else? As I and many others have observed and attested to these effects are far from theoretical, they are real and the impact of addressing them (via suspended or spring solutions) is real and profound Nope. There is no evidence for any of this stuff and thus the point of the thread. There are apparently "engineers" involved with some of these products but no data whatsoever, just pseudoscientific intuitive and fights of fancy (and youtube videos). You heard a "change" in your speakers. Why? Spectral analysis would be easy to do with and without stands (for an actual engineer....maybe not a NASA custodian). In audiophilia, an audible change is often the end game. Philes experience a change and that keeps them going without knowing what changed and why. |
PB: I don’t worry about potential members of the Flat Earth Society who may have a problem with the more advanced aspects of high end audio, and this includes vibration control. Ultimately and unfortunately, it’s their loss. The world has a generous supply of skeptics who seem compelled to mask ignorance with sophistry. The irony is that the usual modus operandi of these types is to accuse the audiophile community of sophistry, but the reverse is usually true: the casual skeptic has not done any research, and we have. I agree with his sentiment and there can certainly be sophistry on both sides of the aisle. That being said, it is also self-serving as he is in the industry and the onus is on him to some degree.... |
You are obviously not trying very hard to unearth this evidence? Here are several examples using your preferred method (accelerometers) supporting two of the items I use in my system au contraire. I have read exhaustively on this stuff (and regret doing so). I have a "science" background, have done bench research, and published in peer reviewed journals as have many of my family members. I know all about the discipline and energy it takes to generate "data" that leads to something new. Its much easier to make things up or take flights of fancy or do radioshack grade measurements after the fact to provide some proof of concept (aka a "white paper"). Do you realize that John Atkinson was using an accelerometer for speaker testing back in the early 90s? Not exactly cutting edge....and it certainly tells you nothing about speaker "output" or frequency changes or electrical epiphenomena (which is again the point of this thread). Sigh.... |
It is quite possible we are approaching the real problem the wrong way. What if the real issues are not that electronic signals are being contaminated by vibrations, but that we are hearing our equipment stands resonate? Same for cables. I could see them vibrating on the floor. Maybe we need quilts instead? :)
Touche Erik. Thus my suggestion of frequency analysis after plopping our speakers on some magic stand. On a related note, some speakers are voiced a certain way (including using cabinet vibration as part of that voice like Harbeths or AudioNote) and stands can most certainly change that voice. I know this to be the case....with SS, Stillpoints, etc. |
http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
system A has a nice stand Say it ain't so. |
No need for all the drama. Vibration control and vibration isolation is a VERY mature science. Not need for hystryonics. Here is a quick study page for vibration isolation from Kinetic Systems. Save the drama for yo mama.
http://www.kineticsystems.com/page306.html Not when applied to audio. The LIGO nerds had to optimize one narrow variable (measurement accuracy). That was their output variable. I am still waiting to hear from you or anyone else a corollary in audio. Furthermore, even if you could lock into a given finding, would blinded audio nerds or lay people know the difference? Probably not. You could easily do a blinded season at your local audio society of your magic Walkman versus a stock unit and see what if any differences could be discerned. We all know at this point you are too scared to do that experiment. |
Hey, what?! No need for all the anger, dude. Sounds to to be you’re channeling Aqualung, spitting out pieces of his broken luck and everything. Can I suggest if you’re so obsessed with measurements why don’t YOU measure it? Has anyone noticed, Pseudo skeptics always demand measurements but they never actually DO any themselves. Why is that, do you think? 😍 That makes no sense. The charge is directed at the industry types like yourself. Mirror mirror.....lol. |
I use LIGO as an example of how mass on spring ISO systems can greatly reduce structural vibration. You can draw whatever knucklehead conclusions you wish.
By calling them LIGO nerds and audio nerds one assumes you are jealous of those who actually studied physics in school or are more advanced in this hobby than you are, which judging from your own words isn't saying much.
I have done my fair share of physics (and not at Imagination U). Do us a favor. Get out of your jammies, put the keyboard down, and do something meaningful. Recycling the same tired lines over and over is not proof of concept nor is illusions to adverbials and white papers and vintage Stereophile articles. Hello? |
