mapman
13,349 posts
05-27-2016 4:36pm
Yawn.
No. 13,349. Thanks for your input. Are we keeping you up past your bedtime?
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Atmasphere wrote,
"Occam’s Razor has something to say here! Given that a fuse has to be used in AC circuits and given that people report differences by reversing the fuse, and also understanding how fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever, the explanation that they somehow have an effect by reversing them in the holder is a fairly complex explanation: some sort of unknowable, unmeasurable quality of the fuse itself."
i actually wouldn't be quite so hasty to dismiss fuse directionality out of hand. Let me give you exhibit A, interconnects. A certain kind of interconnect, one without a shield. The keen eared listener will discover that interconnects are directional, too. Just like fuses. Just like any metal wire conductor. This is precisely why many cable manufacturers mark their cables, the unshielded cables, with arrows, so that the cables are connected on the correct direction. Anti Cables marks their cables and they are just copper with lacquer covering. Audioquest and others mark their cables as well. Obviously some companies mark their cables with arrows only for the purposes of the shield. If you have interconnects that don't have shields it's worth reversing them and seeing if that sounds better. I suspect this is true for both solid core and stranded. Speaking of which, the only way fuses or wire wouldn't be directional is if the conductor was some amorphous material like carbon or even lead, just for example, you know, non crystalline.
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Atmasphere wrote,
"Further measurement might show that by rotating the fuse in the holder the voltage drop can be altered."
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears your entire argument hinges on that statement, yet it is strictly hypothetical and specious. Yes, further measurements might show..., but they also might not show. Then you are back at square one, dealing with the directionality of fuses and directionality of wires, why it exists and how to measure it. As I said on previous occasions you are overlooking or dismissing a key piece of evidence in this whole matter is the directionality of interconnects and why many cable manufacturers mark their (unshielded) interconnects (and other cables) with arrows to indicate the direction the cables should be connected. Furthermore, you apparently continue to ignore the best evidence available (since nobody else has stepped up to the plate) - the data presented on the HiFi Tuning website.
I also happen to be rather skeptical that anomalies in pressure or contact surface can actually explain the differences in soundstage, dynamics and tonality among other things that have been reported by many. As I also pointed out somewhere along the line contact enhancing pastes such as Quicksilver Gold applied to the contact surfaces of the fuse holder would eliminate the surface contact theory as a candidate, no?
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
advanced audio concepts |
jea48
2,095 posts
06-01-2016 7:31pm
"I’m reminded of a post by herman."
Quote:
"If you say the AC fuse blew because there was too much current flowing through it everybody nods in agreement even though that isn’t true. If you say the wire in the fuse melted because it got too hot after absorbing energy from the electromagnetic wave people look at you like you are insane and want to argue that vibrating electrons constitute current flow."
Interesting.
;-)
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bdp24
1,256 posts
06-01-2016 10:08am
"I’d like to hear from AC power cord designers/manufacturers. Do any of them test the wire they make their cords with for directionality? They can’t simply be reversed by the user though, of course."
And the answer is...
Not all cable manufacturers agree on the dodgy subject of directionality. Here’s what Audioquest says on the subject:
"DIRECTIONALITY: All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For best results have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player."
Addendum: One would expect in this day and age and in light of the fact that most high end cable manufacturers employ cryogenic treatment routinely (as do some aftermarket fuse manufacturers) that high end cable manufacturers are aware of directionality and have taken appropriate steps to deal with it. Whether that's true or not would take some research. For power cords, while they are most likely directional like all cables, though they employ stranded conductors, directional arrows are not used since they aren’t necessary for power cords.
cheerios,
geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio conceits
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Jea48 wrote,
"Jmho, the differences heard in SQ is not from minuscule resistance of the fuse element inside the fuse that measures higher in one direction than the other, which is said to create a minuscule VD across the fuse element, measured in a live completed circuit from fuse end cap to end cap."
No one ever said or suggested differences in sound quality are due to the minuscule differences of resistance of the fuse element inside the fuse. That’s a Strawman argument. Even the independent tester for HiFi Tuning states on the data sheets that the very small differences in resistance DON’T EXPLAIN the (obvious) differences in SQ. All the resistance measurements are intended to show is that that ARE measurable differences, thus an indication that SOMETHING is going on. As I stated earlier on this thread somewhere and as HiFi Tuning intimates on the data sheets, distortion and noise measurements might be more uh revealing in terms of sound quality.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
no goats no glory |
atmasphere
4,831 posts
06-01-2016 11:31am
Geoffkait: I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears your entire argument hinges on that statement, yet it is strictly hypothetical and specious.
To which Atmasphere replied,
"Not at all. I used the word ’might’ as with some fuseholders and fuses, the voltage drop stays about the same due to the alignment of the contacts. This easily explains why there are inconsistencies in reports."
Inconsistencies in reports? There are not inconsistencies in reports. Most reports are actually consistent.
Geoffkait: I also happen to be rather skeptical that anomalies in pressure or contact surface can actually explain the differences in soundstage, dynamics and tonality among other things that have been reported by many.
Atmasphere also wrote,
"Given your constant trolling, this such should come as no surprise. In your case I suspect its more profitable if the explanation remains mysterious and tricky to explain while using words like ’quantum’."
That makes no sense. The explanation is not mysterious. And I actually have not used the word quantum, at least not in this discussion. Are you afraid of the word quantum? Boo! Profitable? For me? Shirley you jest.
This whole discussion is an excellent illustration of the Backfire Effect, the phenomenon that occurs when someone clings to his original theory despite well constructed counter arguments and evidence to the contrary. The Backfire Effect becomes more and more pronounced as the evidence piles up, such that the person becomes more an more convinced in his mind he must actually be right.
have a nice day,
Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio conceits
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The Anti Cables discussion from their web site. Anti cables are unshielded.
"Wire Directionality?
As an electronic engineer I struggled with this topic for quite a while because it did not fit into any of the electrical models I have learned. It simply does not make sense that an alternating music signal should favor a direction in a wire. One of the great things about the audio hobby is that we seem to be able to hear things well before we can explain them; and just because we can’t explain something, does not mean it does not exist.
While wire directionality is not fully understood, it is clear that the molecular structure of drawn metal wire is not symmetrical and it is this physical difference which is consistent with which direction the wire sounds better. When the directionality is “backwards” there is a loss of resolution, cymbals sound like a spray-can and are truncated, voices are grainy and lack presences, and bass is less defined. When the wire directionality is “correct” the music is more relaxed, pleasant and believable. Once you hear the difference, you will never want to have to listen to wire backwards ever again.
All ANTICABLES products have the correct directionality marked with an arrow."
Nordost on the other hand apparently did not get the memo. From their FAQ page,
"When cables are manufactured they do not have any directionality. However, as they break in, they acquire directionality. Although the cable signal is an alternating current, small impurities in the conductor act as diodes allowing signal flow to be better in one direction over time. This effect is also called quantum tunneling, w hich has been observed in experiments over 25 years ago. Regardless of the purity of the metal used, there are still diode effects in all conductors. In addition, the insulation material will change when it is subjected to an electrical field."
cheers
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almarg
6,436 posts
06-08-2016 12:49pm
Some PC w/o shrink sleeves on plugs/IEC and thin threads like NordOst Valhalla can be tested, simply swap the ends. I may try that on my remaining Valhallas.
Although if that is done and a difference is heard, it by no means proves that directionality of the wires is responsible. For example, the act of simply removing and reattaching the connectors would seem to me to have a greater chance of being responsible. Assuming, of course, that care has been taken to eliminate other possible extraneous variables, such as differences in warmup state (many here have asserted that days of warmup may be required for some solid state equipment to achieve optimum performance), or the re-initialization that occurs in some designs (especially those which include digital circuitry) when power is removed and re-applied, or even (as some members here have asserted in other threads) the act of physically manipulating the cord, allegedly necessitating significant time for it to "settle.""
Of course, all of those "extraneous variables" you refer to can be controlled by the careful and thorough experimenter. There’s no reason to jump to conclusions. Looking on the bright side at least there’s no fuse holder to get in the way. Not sure I completely understand all the angst and concern over wire directionality since it rather easy to demonstrate it using stock fuses or unshielded interconnects. I can completely understand why uber skeptics would not wish to carry out these experiments themselves and report results.
Cheers,
geoff kait
machina dynamica
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