certin speaker makers harder to get dissounts fro

Big Joe, I have a very good handle on reality. I've worked in retail I know what kinda margins big box stores have in comparison to high end stores. The margins in High end stores are set high for a reason, they need them to surive. They don't deal in volume, they deal taking customers showing them or introducing them to hifi and hopefully holding on them them for life. Discounts are fine, but to take a person's time...sometimes hours then beat them down on price then wonder why they are closed for business well...I think it add's up.

Actually, you mentioned some dealers not changing with the times, the ones that have survived have done it not through discounting but shifting focus from Audio, to Home Theatre.

In my area (Greater Toronto Area) I can think of at least 4 dealers that use to deal in high end audio but have now taken a more mid-fi approach to Home Theatre. The reason is simple, there is no money left in Audio based on custmomers expecting the same service in the late 80's early 90's and todays trend for discount pricing. They can't afford to sell 1 pair of Wilson Audio speakers a month at 30% off.

Two channel audio is a risky enough business to begin with. Count how many friends you have, now how many are serious about music? The percentage will be small I'm sure. Now take that small percentage and have a dealer cut deals to all of them. There isn't enough money left over at the end of the month to pay for bills. If you think I'm wrong count again how many two channel dealers now focus more on home theatre. I mention all of this because I'm not a wealthy man, so I buy used. Never do I walk into a high end dealers showroom ask a bunch of questions spend time with the equipment then ask for a crazy deal.

There is nothing wrong with saving money, but there is nothing wrong with making some either. And quite frankly, in today's climate high end dealers aren't reaping the rewards of years gone by.

Good morning Lush. You make good points. Let me say that two of us (with differing POV's) have used the phrase "sense of entitlement". Both uses are valid. Customers who simply "expect" dollars off are better off using the net and retailers who "expect" potential customers to buy their sales lines Hook, Line and Sinker without asking questions or leaving to go home and process/discuss the info with a significant other before coming back to purchase is arrogant. I always support buying local if possible and I can't tell you how many times I've passed on a "done deal" because a salesperson just annoyed the sh*t out of me.
This isn't a black/white customer vs retailer issue. Customers should work for the best deal and salespeople should extol the virtues of quality accessories and equipment and try to acquire every dollar the customer budgeted.
What gets lost is what a "customer" actually is. A person doesn't become a customer "only after a sale", we are customers as soon as we have an interest in something (our brain says we need it and we put a mental plan in place to get it). I am a customer before I walk into your store and the onlt way I have to know if you understand my need/want is to talk casually with you. I may not have the money today because I'm not shopping for equipment, I'm shopping for a salesperson, some I trust and like talking with. Personal interactions are very complex, equipment is not (if you don't seem to care if I'm in your store, act like I'm wasting your time or treat me in a condesending manner by putting yourself on an informational pedestal, I'm gone and so is my future money). Audio is emotional and we want to FEEL good about our purchases. Negotiation is about feeling good, not about money. Reatilers often lose sight of this factor. If you see us as simply $$$, ultimately no one will be happy with the sale.

WOW, what a responce . Thanks everyone for their thoughts and time taken to to respond. I have gained some good tools and will put them to good use.

A discounted sale is better than no sale at all. Anyone that goes in and pays retail in this hobby is either a fool or very wealthy. The reason most of us want a discount is to get the most bang for our buck. We all usually strive for gear above and beyond our budget. LUSH wants to scold us for not being sheep and paying retail for gear marked up 40-60%-but admits he only buys used gear. So while LUSH won't support his local dealers by buying new gear at retail-he expects the rest of us to be loyal audio fools. LUSH-when you pull your foot out of your mouth-please then kick yourself in the a$$ with it. Its all supply and demand-99% of audio gear is grossly overpriced. The manufacturers are the ones that need a reality check. If the dealers continue to close up-it will ultimately put the manufacturers out of buisness too. The popularity of this website proves that their are endless audiophiles looking to spend alot of money on gear-were just looking for fairly priced equipment that gives us the most bang for our buck...........

Cj1capp,

I carry roughly a dozen high-end electronics and loudspeaker lines. On paper the average mark-up is right at 40 points, but in practice it's less because in most cases I have to pay for shipping. I have one line that's at 50 points if I pay in time, and two that are in the low 30's. My cable lines have a higher markup on average, but I don't have any that are over 50 points. The trend I have seen is lower markup (as low as 25 points in some cases) in the higher end gear, with higher markup (up to 80 points) in midfi gear.

I haven't had to deal with the overhead of running a brick-and-mortar store, as mine burned down before it ever opened. My experience has been as an in-home showroom. Now some of my manufacturers have strict rules about discounting, and if I want to keep those product lines I have to abide by their wishes. I'm not a Martin Logan dealer, but that might be your dealer's situation.

You might try this: Ask your dealer if, instead of offering you a discount (which I would say is customary for large or system purchases), would he consider giving you a generous trade-in allowance on some used gear? He may be prohibited by his manufacturer's rules from discounting, but he is not prohibited from offering you more than bluebook value on a trade-in.

Best of luck to you,

Duke