Stormen and Halcro
I will give what I think is possible.
The guitar amp guys swear by vintage tube guitar amps. After hearing the vintage stereo tube amp I can understand why. Tones. Guitar guys talk about the tone. I can understand that now! The vintage tube (stereo) amp excels at it. My SS is not even in the league. You can tell so many different instruements apart. I do not mean to say your SS amps are not good just mine was not even close to the vintage tube amp.
I have been driven nuts as to why myself. I now have 5 vintage amps in total one here (broken) and 4 coming and maybe more.
You guys both read Steen's findings. No plastic was huge to him. I suspect he wondered why the vintage stuff sounded better.
The guitar guys say no plastic in the vintage transformer? point to point wiring. (I am assuming your amps have circuit boards) The vintage amp uses foil caps. No doubt not even close to Duelund quality but the Duelund's really only blew away my tweeter caps and it is close in the mid range. They both have similiar tones. Which makes me think (as Steen said) "caps should be foil or some variation of".
When I think about my Linn system which was a pretty standard system. (near there top a few year ago) I used all Linn I.C's Linn sources Linn pre Linn amp Linn speaker wire (tri-wire) and Linn speakers and yet the vintage stuff blew it away! Like I said when I heard the Linn all I could think was attention Walmart shoppers! Night and day. That is where the losing my mind over vintage. Why? is what was bugging me.
Look at my Linn system
pre-amp loaded with circuit boards along with the amp. The speaker crossover had cheap electrolytic caps. Cheap plastic caps and on a circuit board again. I heard tons of high freq hash all the time. It was so bad on the CD player I used to laugh at it. I thought it was a piece of junk! When that same CD player is hooked up to all foil amp. all foil (non circuit board) speaker crossover it was a thing of beauty. I never would have believed it could even sound so good.
I think it is like a chain. When I put the Mundorf in the Midrange even in a all foil vintage amp the Duelund's did not shine the same. When I put in (my SS) the Duelund's do not shine the same. All foil all the way and WOW! Holy mother of crap that is amazing! Hence all my gear up for sale.
There is even only one concern I have is why does my CD player sound around the same as the LP12 on vintage? That is my one last question. Might not even own a turntable soon.
I will be going to Steen's site again to look for more clues. |
Halcro on my Linn SS the Lp12 blows away the Cd player. My Lp12 has the cirkus bearing, Lingo and Ekos Mk II tonearm. That is part of what I am saying my CD player sounded like garbage until I got the vintage tube amp. |
Halcro I am somewhat confused myself. The tubes make the CD player sound like it never has before. (always wayyyyy below the level of the LP12) On the other side the improvement was not as stark with the Lp12 hooked up to tubes. This could be as little as a poor vintage phono stage. If you would have asked me before this I just assumed vinyl was the only way to go. Almost got rid of the CD player as it was getting so little use. Mostly for my wife really as I never listened to it. I am to the point of wondering if I will keep the Lp12. That's why I say I was confused as well. SS causes an ever increasing investment in the LP12 and I was somewhat frustrated with being somewhat stuck in the past. (vinyl I mean) Halcro I think everyone would agree if you can get digital as good as vinyl sound than vinyl is a big question mark. CD's do not wear out like lp's etc. I know a lot of it has to do with even and odd harmonic distortion. In my opinion digital with (my SS) just gives wayyyy too much odd harmonic distortion.
Which takes me back to Steen's camp. A cheap (my CD player was $3 or $4k new) but only worth $600 (or so) now coupled with a vintage tube amp (again for chump change) with vintage speakers and Duelund crossover blows away a my many, many times more expensive vinyl SS system. Steen says 50% speakers 50% of that crossover and 50% in the rest of the system.
My x-101-d is I think the same as the 500c. Stereophile write this review and I know they love everything except the Fisher does not advertise. They do say the phono stage not all that great.
http://www.stereophile.com/historical/605fisher/ |
Have two (new) old Fishers here one x101 and a 500c. The x101 was supposed to have no hum? Maybe the owner was deaf?? The 500c is working but does not have the crystal clear sound of the x101-d before it blew. I have to get tubes checked out etc. So both are going to tech guy.
I will have to replace electrolytics etc. Any recommendations there?
This sounds more like what I thought vintage would. A little dull. |
Sorry Stormen for the confusion. My crossover is 2 2uf caps in series. I have of course only 2 (CAST) and 2 VSF caps. So I have to go one of each. So I am not bypssing just figuring out which cap should be first the VSF or the CAST. I currently have one speaker set up each way.
It seems having the CAST last in the circuit works best. I too of course would just have CAST funds permitting. |
No don't be sorry for the "rant".
I just did not know that CD's that were done from the era were good. It makes sense though as the vinyl was excellent from the same listings you mention. The only problem is finding vinyl from that ear in good shape.
I had always suspected that not all of digital's problem were the media. In fact I think most of it is not the media and what you are saying is the great recordings from the era transferred well to the digital domain.
So many recordings since (that great era) of great music have been ruined in the studio and always we be lost. |
G_24 Thanks
I never hear people talk much about Electrolytics. At least one being better than the other.
I am going to put the Duelund VSF's into the Klipch heresy's to see if the improvement is the same there. Of course they have the same tweeter and midrange but no mid range caps so just tweeter caps to replace so a Duelund speaker on the cheap. I am going to test the 500c what will be the livingroom system.
Will Duelund make the same improvement in cheap speakers??
Part of me bought the Heresy's for parts for the Khorns (I have Lascala's but getting Khorns) part wants to never do this again! I already know what will sound good in the Heresy's. (I think)
Heresy's have slow bass compared to Khorns or Lascala's that won't change even if one did put in Duelund tweeter caps. |
Face can't say about the difference from Aluminum to Copper but can say the CAST is a shocking reduction in noise.
I am going to put the CAST caps back in one channel and VSF in the other (for tweeters) now that they are fully broke in. The CAST are a bit dark when new. Part of me is afraid too. $$$$$ is why!
I am very interested in these CD mods like FAS948 and Dave have done. Putting Duelund in the CD player sounds great! What if a couple of caps makes a fairly cheap CD players sound amazing??
It may sound crazy but for me I would likely get rid of an Lp12. One thing with going to no plastic (exept in the CD player) is my CD player sounds wayyyyy better now than it used to. |
Put the Duelund VSF's into the tweeter caps (which is all there is) into the Heresy's.
I am not intending to buy them for the Heresy's. (yet) Just want to see if they make the same kind of difference. It might be something someone would consider if they like Klipsch sound and did not have room for the big Lascala's Belle's or Khorns. The caps are worth more than the speakers!
Well I was right with the Lascala's the Duelund have do the same thing in the Heresy's.
Not just the highs are smoother the white noise is eliminated and mids are smoother. A huge improvement albeit at a cost many might not want to spend on a set of Heresy's.
I just wanted to know if I thought it was worth it in a set of cheaper speakers. The Heresy's to me are like Cornwalls too slow in the bass. This is for me as I know some like Cornwalls over Lascala's and Khorns. Too me the big horn driven woofer speakers are wayyyyy better and much faster in the bass. Some say they can't bass out of the horn type. I think they miss the boom. Would I spend the money on the Heresy's on Duelund. Hmmm part is maintance and foil in oil originals are Ok for midrange but in the high freq the Duelund tight tolerance is MUCH better. To me Duelund is a slam dunk in the tweeter caps. Better than the vintage ever was by a mile and for good reason! |
Danmyers
A Crazy Stubborn. Yes maybe! My Local high-end dealer used to tease me about the big Klipsch all the time. I would have all new gear and they would laugh over the speakers.
b I will always take the advice but as anyone should do in audio use your own ears.
c infer cause and effect that one I would like you to clarify. Not sure what you mean? My rants on plastic caps?
I am Ok with being crazy but would like to talk about this one.
d broad unfound generalizations is like the c comment please be specific.
Danmyers you never heard me say building speakers was easy. After doing a crossover rebuild I have gained new respect for speaker builders. You will get NO arguement from me that tweaking your own speakers can be expensive! If I could buy new speakers with Duelund in them at a price I could afford I would.
Dan I am very much looking to get back to a peaceful enjoyment of music. I waiting to get back from the tech guy a EL84 amp and will fix up my x-101d fisher (professional series) and be done. The x101d is MUCH better than the 500c. (at least the one I have)
Dan I may be crazy that is always hard to tell but my dealer who has snickered over the big Klipsch and tried to sell me all these other speakers over the years of which not one single one is on Arthur Salvatore's list. So I could have dumped a ton of $.
I have also sold all of my gear and used caps based on what I found out and to NO regrets. So I may be crazy but at least I believe in Steen's foil caps if that's what you mean? This was something I do not do as I am not a gear changer. |
Dan
I did listen more than maybe it seems. Someone on here a long time ago suggested why don't you try Duelund. So I ordered one with the other caps. Not really thinking much but hearing good things about Duelund.
It was Shit Luck. I had been listening to foil caps for 28 years and did not know why I liked the vintage (horn driven woofer ones) Klipsch better. I just knew I did.
It was just luck that a Duelund was of the same type (foil)of cap but much better than the vintage. Pure Luck that Duelund tweeter caps kept Klipsch qualities I really liked "realness" and Duelund took away the overbearing shouty midrange.
I am going to finish it off here very soon. I am waiting on a EL84 amp back from tech and will fix the x-101d. I have now learned that not all vintage amps are as good as one another. The fisher 500c is better than the SS gear I had but not even close to the x101-d??? But the tubes are much better quality in the x101-d and boy do tubes make a difference. I felt with that amp I could hear around the instument. To make a statement about the CAST vs. VSF you need a dead quiet amp. Too bad the 500c is not that amp.
Dan part of the reason I bought the Heresy's is I already know what will make them sound good and do not have to do this again. So I understand your feelings big time!
That is why I find Steen's findings as important as his caps. I bet he did it hundreds of times and I know he knew TONS more than we do and even HE was frustrated. So if he says stick to foil or stack foil or some kind like it that is good enough for me. I know I could hear what sounded liked speakers out of phase with plastic caps. (maybe one of my generalizations) Which leads me to his comment that the speakers need to be in phase all the time to sound real. |
I just got a vintage tube amp all check over (tonight) and running Fisher/Telefunken tubes and Raytheon 6BQ5 output tubes and a Mullard rectifier tube. All test well.
Sounds very good and will get a good idea very soon.
I can say from CAST vs. VSF you better have the rest of the system up to snuff.
Tommorow I am starting to compare. CAST to VSF I am not sure that is large bit VSF to any plastic cap I heard is fundementally different. |
The x100 I should say sounds good but not very good. There is a big difference in vintage tube amps.
One guy who bought the Mundorf Supreme from me tried in a set of Klipsch Lascala's and was thrilled. Way better than the Auricaps Dayton and Solens he was using. I am not surprised as Mundorf is better in the poly type caps.
Both guys who have bought the Klouts have e-mailed me to thank me on them.
My one fisher is being fixed. The resistor and cap. It was so quiet I did not know it was possible to be that quiet. I felt I could hear behind the instruement.
You need a dead quiet amp to hear what the Duelund can do. Should be back soon. |
Wavetrader
How would you describe what the CAST have done? When you say some of your recordings sound good on yours and not on your buddy's. Are both systems of similiar level of quality and style? and is this difference pre or post CAST?
I have found the Duelund in general either the lp sounds fantastic or worn out. I have very little in between.
I think this may sound silly but what is the PC on your pre-amp?
I can easily believe you on the best CD's being of that era. ('58-'63) |
One speaker with CAST one with VSF.
Have not changed the VSF midrange though.
Not sure if it is just me but the CAST seem a lot darker.
They seem to make the VSF's sound noisy???
I am putting in the Duelund VSF in the other mid range later tonight.
I did not expect this but am starting to think the CAST is a completely different sounding cap? I will know real soon but first impressions seem to be MUCH quieter than the (I thought) already quiet VSF's.
I think this is what has been frustrating me is the CAST are soooooo quiet they reveal upstream problems. My LP12 sounds great but the Karik not so good. |
Stormen is right but likely correct to temper expectations. He said there was a difference Duelund tempered expectaions as well.
So my expectations were I was spending twice as much on a cap that I thought I would struggle to hear the difference.
I will confirm tonight or tomorrow but the difference is (I think) to be very large! MUCH bigger than I was expecting. Of course I am using horns which is what the CAST was made for by Burt. I thought at this level it would be like pulling teeth.
The only downside is they are sooooo quiet they will reveal worn vinyl plain as day! Noisy caps blend in the noise and you struggle to figure if it is your vinyl or where the noise comes from. You won't anymore! |
I take back any comment that the Duelund in the midrange is not much better. IT IS!
Now that I have them one on one (vs. vintage) the Duelund is a massive reduction in resonance.
I have a bad feeling about my order. It was for CAST midrange but agreed to take the VSF's when they came in, not sure if the CAST would have been worth the extra anyway.
I am very glad I spent the money on the Duelund's for the midrange for sure! |
Have the Duelund VSF now in both midranges. The only difference is CAST tweeter caps vs. VSF in other.
The difference is shocking!
They do not sound similiar at all.
A couple of guys were here today buying my Linn speakers. They came down to hear the speakers for awhile.
When they were hear the midrange was still vintage. They could not believe that was the only difference was caps.
I am very interested in Tony's review on the CAST. Somewhat dark but wayyyyy quieter. For sure not just a VSF at much more money. |
Stormen you are not kidding. When I first put the CAST in I thought something was wrong?
Leaves you confused. I never thought the VSF's noisy?
I am still trying to assess this. I never in a million years thought this much difference.
What frustrates me is I keep going back to one speaker with the one with CAST tweeter caps. The problem is I will have to go one VSF and one CAST.
Which one first? The CAST or the VSF?
I am ticked now I did not wait for the CAST mid caps!
The difference (to me) is almost as big as from vintage to VSF.
The VSF's smear a lot! I can not believe this. You really under played the difference before I bought these. I understand why as never good to get someone hopes up to high. So did Burt. I see why he uses these in his horn speakers. He thought it not to be the same kind of jump as from vintage I am not so sure! They give my speakers MUCH better freq range. They take out a drone. Funny I noticed the same thing when the VSF's went in. The midrange drone went way down.
If Tony does not give these a 15 I will be shocked! They are out of the league of the VSF's. I was all hyped up before I got them expecting to get into some ideal condition to hear the difference. I never thought it was going to be massive.
I keep saying to myself these make the VSF's sound like the vintage did in comparison to the VSF's. The difference is THAT big!
My rating is if VSF's are 12.5/10 CAST is at least 15 to 17/10! Sorry to go on like this but Wow! |
Stormen did mention the break in with CAST being dark. He thought and so does Duelund that the break in was around 17 days?
For me the CAST came exactly when the cap went so a change of amps. It was VERY disorientating. The CAST is a bigger change from VSF's than ANY other cap I tried (except maybe from the worn out vintage tweeter caps)
A fundemental change for my speakers the Lascala's are known to be bass shy. They are NOT. They seem it because of the horn design amplifies all noise. So the mid and highs noise tend to give less bass.
I will be spending the money in the future to replace my VSF's for CAST for the tweeters. (I have one of each) It is THAT big.
Every person who has heard the speakers is confused as I was at first. The reaction of everyone seems to be pick the more resonating caps first then after a period of time they all switch to less resonating and can't believe the difference.
Same thing again yesterday by the guys buying the Linn speakers.
Duelund warned of break in with CAST and DO expect it. To me they are VERY dark at first like they are masking something after awhile you realize (and they open up) that they are a HUGE reduction in noise.
Listening to Sinatra yesterday the violins were much stronger out the CAST while background wayyy quieter.
The downside to this? Maybe a top notch digital front end is the only way to go. The caps have a much lower sound floor than vinyl might be capable of. Don't get me wrong it sounds astonishing but you have no doubt when you have worn vinyl on. |
Now that I have found out what crossover caps can do I am replacing the electrolytic caps in the old Fishers. They are far too noisy in my opinion. I have found a review on electrolytic caps. I want to push these Duelund's to the limit and need as quiet as possible amp.
Any comments? One seems to take almost a Duelund view with silk.
http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html
http://www.elna-america.com/tech_audio_series.php |
Thanks Dave. Those new SET's are looking better.
Thanks Wavetrader good review. A Fisher adventure is not what I am looking for?! The only upside is replacing caps that are almost 45 or 50 years old is not a waste. Of course this lowers the value of the amp not raises it. The 500c is for livingroom anyway and I do not like the way it sounds so not a waste.
My problem is now simple too much high freq noise blocking enjoyment. When you have a amp that is pitch black and you can hear around a instruement that is addictive! |
Stormen the CAST are AMAZING!
They are dark and quiet when you first get them though. Also they are hard to get a handle on.
A friend was by tonight and I did not tell him which speaker had the CAST in. At first he did the same as most do. He liked the VSF. After awhile he changed to the CAST. Which makes me think we like resonance at first then once our brains can process what is going on we like prefer the low resonance.
He said it was like the speakers were "full range with the CAST and noisy with the VSF".
The downside to the CAST is and there is a downside in my mind. They will not cover up your amp or source!
I will end up getting rid of at least half my vinyl. The CAST are excellent as they are ULTRA low resonance.
The strange side effect to me is I may end up selling my turntable not because there is anything wrong with the Lp12 but the CAST have revealed that my vinyl is MUCH more worn than I thought.
What the CAST have shown me is maybe vinyl is not the way to go at this level. My very good vinyl sounds fantastic! My less than good vinyl is torn to shreds by the CAST.
There is no hiding and pretending that the vinyl is Ok.
My Karik has finally quit opening so I have only an old CD player and the CAST tears it to shreds as a piece of garbage. (which it is!)
For horn speakers (which is of course what mine are) the CAST are miles better! The VSF sound all washed out by comparison. Everyone who has heard them wondered if the speaker with the VSF was broken! No kiddding.
The CAST tilt the sound downward by the MASSIVE reduction in noise. So if you get CAST be expecting that because you will get it. It speaks volumes that given a choice with one speaker on VSF tweeters and one on CAST I am very content to always listen to the CAST.
I agree with Stormen and although I have not traded the VSF's away I can easily see why one would consider them one of the biggest upgrades one could do going from VSF to CAST. Who would have thought??? Not me!
So much for the theory of dimishing returns.
Another interesting thing is many say horns do not have bass. I think by nature horns amplify sound. Since most noise is in the high freq the horn will exagerate that freq. So the horns sound like lack of bass. The CAST through the huge reduction in noise change the tonal balance down. The CAST have given a side benefit and that is correcting a weakness in my speakers.
I am going to have to hear Burt's modern horns. (not buying anything soon but am curious)
I feel the CAST tweeter caps very good value but the midrange with out hearing it that is a lot of coin! For my speakers it would be $2200 plus tax and shipping for mid range caps. Silver CAST would be $15k for the pair! Holy Crap!
After hearing CAST I must admit it would be haunting to know how much noise they get rid of and putting coin some where else in the system. If your caps are noisy (and even VSF are noisy) how can you get the most out of your system?
I want to thank everyone who has helped along the way.
After looking at those CAST prices I do not want to even contemplate. I am going to put one CAST and one VSF in the tweeters and finish the rebuild and wrap this up.
I am moving on to tweaking up the amp and maybe a top notch digital front end and no vinyl. Maybe.
Thanks for all the help! |
Matrix I am not spending more on caps.
CAST are much quieter than VSF by a magnitude I would have never guessed.
As for mono blocks? vs. very old distorted equipment? The Fisher x101-d blew away my modern Linn Klout. (which was $4k and I had two of them) Linn guys feel that the Klout is almost as good as the Klimax which is $25k. The amp was dead, dead, dead in comparision.
That comparison was done on both my "old distorted raspy horns" and my modern Linn speakers. Now horns are not for everyone as they are all about finesse speed and do not need much power. The downside to horns is noise. The Fisher has 99% less noise than my modern SS amp.
I should explain even the Fisher (500c and x100) that I am saying is not as good (as the x101-d) is STILL much better than my SS amp was. The one Fisher is the quietest amp I have EVER heard.
CAST caps do take vinyl to a higher level. If the vinyl is good. CAST are so quiet they reveal so much that you can hear the very defects in the vinyl itself.
I use a VPI 16.5 RCM and often steam if needed.
I would have agreed on the VSF could not possibly sound distorted. If you check back in the thread I could not imagine better than VSF and tought I was likely wasting my money.
The CAST are ASTONISHING! The CAST make the VSF sound vintage. The detail is incredible! What I am saying is they cut out soooooo much noise you can hear groove wear. I can not see how this is ever going away with vinyl.
Matrix I am not so sure horns are from the last century as they for sure seem to be making a revival.
Here is a clip from Burt's site where a custormer is using my exact bass bins.
http://www.bd-design.nl/index1.html
There is a whole site of people stuck in the past with horns and mostly tubes.
http://www.bd-design.nl/index1.html
This is Johnk's system who has posted on this thread.
http://www.bd-design.nl/index1.html
So Matrix in the horn world you may spend on caps but you don't need a mega powered amp. A lot use flea powered SET amps. (which is for sure on my radar)
Most of the horn guys will talk about getting rid of noise being most important. Hence my back flips over CAST as they are MADE for horns. (literally)
I would love to compare a set of old Khorns (with a modern CAST crossover) against a new set of horns. I can not say which would win but can say a set of Khorns with CAST is of NO resemblence to the vintage ones.
|
Thanks Matrix All clear
I am leaning to the new SET as well. Maybe I just had a fluke Fisher. You are right though the other ones have not been that great. I do though think the vintage can be very good amps. As Arthur says amps just have not come that far in 40 years and anyone who says they have is trying to sell you something. Now I am not a vintage person as other than these old speakers none of my gear was vintage.
The fire/smoke of the output transformer does scare one for sure on vintage. One thing for sure I agree on not all vintage is equal and you guys may be right to spend on newer amp. I am going to try one re-cap (electrolytics) on a Fisher and if no good dump most of them.
I really have had enough of fixing gear. If I had the money maybe one of those new $40k horn systems would be the way to go. But they are out of my league. |
Thanks Dan
I am a so so Stones fan. I did find out that my Beatles Bluw box set was not as good as I thought. I can for sure tell the previous owners favs. At least that is one thing you do not have to deal with in digital. (physical wear)
I do still prefer vinyl over digital. (at least what I have heard) Dan do you find there to be a difference in the way you feel listening to digital vs. (good) vinyl? I still find vinyl more relaxing although I do not have a SACD player and my digital reference may suffer from lack of information. With the Linn guys I hear them say the new Klimax DS is very good. Then the next guy (who owns one) says still not close to their Lp12? |
Thanks Guys
David $800 hook up wire! To me confusing I did not expect the improvement I got from Duelund caps but $800 wire I guess I can not wrap my head around that giving me bang for the buck? I will not spend anything like that on wire as I (think) I would rather get Duelund caps for an amp than hook up wire. Maybe it is me?
Anyone have feelings on wire $ compared to elsewhere? My gut says Amps yes caps yes tubes yes but wire??? |
Gone through 120+ pieces of vinyl to be traded in.
The noise is not from the vintage amp these caps let you hear any defect in the vinyl. Excellent vinyl sounds amazing. It is not a negative of these caps as they are so precise you know when (without a doubt) your vinyl is worn.
Last year I went through my vinyl as best the system I had then could a sort out worn stuff. I can now hear so much more it is incredible. There was more wear than I had any idea of. It comes across a noisy and stands out.
Sonic differences from CAST to VSF. (and they are MUCH bigger than I thought)(but for some odd reason they are much bigger on vinyl than CD?)
My turntable still sounds wayyyyyyy better then (my) CD player that was just a wish for great digital. The Duelund's just need great vinyl. (or maybe a great digital source)
VSF noisy and washed out in camparison to CAST. VSF almost sound broken in comparison. CAST have much better texture and sort things out much better.
CAST will tilt the sound downward which is a good thing for me as I have bass shy horns. They do this by the huge reduction in noise. CAST is much easier to track bass lines.
VSF might have one slight upside. The electricity in the room is bigger on VSF. I guess this could be caused by the reduction in noise with the CAST. CAST might be slightly tight.
That is very slight and if I could do it all again I would just get the CAST for the midrange and Tweeters.
I am hoping with crossoved fingers that one CAST and one VSF gives me most of the difference in both speakers or maybe even gives a little of the VSF electricity and the stunning CAST low resonance.
Some audio nuts are organizing a get together. I was inivited to the first one but next time they are going to have a tube based theme which I will go and put the speakers to the test of others. I also want to hear a selection of SET amps and how they compare to the vintage. (refurbished or course) |
Stormen any experience in mixing VSF and CAST?
Thanks |
Wavetrader I am very glad to hear that about the Black gates. I am going to do the re-capping the Fisher. That Stereophile article compared the Fisher against a $42k amp as well. The Fisher was not better but I think shocked even Stereophile that really amps have not come that far.
I was schooled when the guy showed up to buy the Klipsch with old Fisher. I kind of chuckled at first when I seen it. An hour later I was humbled and big time!
Made an app. to sell the used vinyl. I think close to $1k worth of store credit. My vinyl that I am getting rid of will be the best they have almost to a piece. Vinyl of course is better than digital but digital is better than worn vinyl.
One thing I did notice on the vinyl purge was how poorly mid '70's onward vinyl stood up. I know they changed something in the vinyl to make it softer. My older Sinatra, Ray Charles, Louis Armstrong etc stands up wayyyy better overall.
Vinyl quality itself went down after the first oil crisis. (early '70's) Older recordings on Columbia's top label or Decca or Reprise sound amazing and even the ones I did not keep were not so much from wear but noise. Newer records (meaning mostly mid '70 and '80's) are just worn out.
To me it is not surprising (now) that the Fisher stands up. The '60's recordings were just astonishing as well. Arthur talks about this in his site as well. I find his site to be very good and now follow it much more closely. I remember not seeing my amp (Linn Klout) on his list and thinking it must be that he had just not heard it. He had all these old '60's antique amps but not mine? Why not? Now I know why! It is just not that good. |
Thanks Dan they are singing like they NEVER have in the 28 years I have owned them!
I am the one who is writing in to Arthur's site about the caps (CAST and VSF) and my feeling is if he had moved the Khorns down to Class C (upper) from Class B there is NO comparison to standard Khorns. I am not sure if they are again best in the world but they are MILES better than any stock Class C ones! I did invite him to hear them. If one likes Khorns they are going to love them with Duelund.
I do agree Dan on the Cd's I do not have a ton anyway. Now as for CD era and '70's?? Was it not early '80's that they came out? Do you mean '80's and 90's?
I now know without a doubt my old gear was mid-fi. What I once struggled with wondering was it the Lp or amp or speakers when sound was not good is now child's play. I can not believe how easy it is to hear record wear.
I have 150 records to go to the used record store. He is very excited about them as mostly they "look" new. Likely 100 of the will be the best in the store. The thing is I could not tell for sure they were worn out (before) now it is just so easy!
I have a original Blue Note Lp Somethin' Else from 1958 (stereo version) and it sounds AMAZING! Mine must have been played 1000+++ times (maybe 10k times) has noise but you can tell the level of the recording is just mind boggling. To think they did that in 1958 and then the garbage from the early CD era. What you can tell is that those old heavy Lp's stood up wayyyy better than later era vinyl. Much harder and heavier. I really can not hear any wear in the record, noise yes but no wear.
The only thing I am struggling with is to get a handle on the CAST vs. VSF and everyone wondered if one could even hear the difference. That could not be farther from the truth they do not even sound close to VSF. Biggest difference from any cap I have heard.
On the noisy Blue Note record it is the CAST that cuts noise by 90%? I know that is shocking but true. I can listen to either the CAST speaker or both but not the VSF in comparison.
The VSF though do seem to give air around the instruements better. The VSF's are looser the CAST the ultimate in detail and noise reduction. The air from the VSF does make things come alive more.
My ideal might be some combination of the two. I am hoping (praying) the mixing will give me both the air and noise reduction. Maybe the best of both world's.
I have put a request out to Stormen to see if he has ever mixed and which should go first? (in series) I remember reading someone said it was like cooking a little of this a little of that for best results. I am going to mix today and see.
I hope the sum of the two is better than each seperate.
Well here goes a CAST for noise reduction and a VSF for a bit of air. Please! |
I want to thank you Frederik for your wonderful sounding caps.
With the desire to get the most out of these caps I also would love to hear you opinions on what else in the chain does matter?
Thanks |
Sorry of course that should say "your" not "you" opinions. |
Dan
I came back to vinyl around late '90's. I went to buy a CD player a Linn Karik and the store said what about a Rega Planar turntable. The Rega was much better at $750 then and the CD player was $3500. At the time I was in a state of shock how the modest turntable (on an obsolete format) sounded better?? I did not buy either put it on the list to do and friend later sold me his Lp12 for around $600 that was when everyone was just getting rid of their vinyl and tables. (my first Lp12)
That is a common thing the ticks and pops comment my lp's mostly have none. Vinyl was so cheap a few years ago if it was not perfect I got rid of it. But what I am finding out (thanks to Duelund's) is that even the very clean looking vinyl has much more wear than I thought.
I use a wall stand in the basement where my stereo is now. It drove me nuts in the livingroom and walking gently etc..
My opinion is vinyl is much better! A big pain but better sounding although buying tube gear (I admit) took a lot of the digital edge off. My opinion on vinyl is that has much to do with the recording process. The "loudness wars" were not going on when vinyl was the most common form of stored music. It is almost like the recording engineer is afraid to left the sound go quiet. So I feel a lot of digital's faults happen right in the mixing. Also the average persons stereo is worse today than 30 years ago. (according to my high-end dealer) So the poorer the average stereo the less need for quality source. Let's face audio nuts are just not that important in the $ sense.
I was visiting my Uncle once and at the stereo store his buddy had a friend who used to work in a recording studio. He said they would run songs through what he called the "shit box" and what that did was compress the sound to the middle freq.. They wanted a sound that could be played on cheap stereos or in the car. It was very interesting hearing him talk. The guy used to work for Oracle. (turntable manufacturer) He also said a audiophile release would be a joke in a way because all they did was sell the "non compressed" version. (they knew the audiophile would have the gear)
My best vinyl (for sound quality) is the 1958 Blue Note album. It was never made for the car no doubt recorded on tube mic's, likely using tube lathe cutting machines and on very thick vinyl. |
Wavetrader I have been doing some new vinyl reviews.
For me I feel it is the only route right now. I will turn my used vinyl into some new ones with store credit.
Does anyone have any recomendations on which label?
I had read Michael Fremer'r reviews are his accurate? |
Indeed the CAST do have a profound effect. I can not imagine owning speakers without at least VSF in them. (prefer CAST)
If money was an issue I would cut other areas of my system first before crossover caps. I totally believe Steen now that the crossover will always be the weak link in any system. (just the difference from VSF to CAST)
In fact I now think it is crossover then source material itself. The only so called "downside" to CAST (and VSF) is they start to run the show demanding a excellent source or they will let you know the defective garbage you are feeding them. You become adjusted to what they can do. They have also changed my impression of what a balanced system is to something I never would have believed. |
Wavetrader
When trading in the lp's I picked up a few Cd's from the era you are talking about. Muddy Waters, Theloious Monk and Miles Davis. I did not have any CD's from the era. I just wanted to see if they were better than modern CD'. |
Sorry Dan slow reply.
Thanks I have gained some appreciation for digital. It's long lasting and how these caps have revealed so much of my vinyl to be in poor shape. (wayyy more than I could imagine)
The local used record store was thrilled when I brought the vinyl in. They are asking $50 for many of the pieces yet there was clearly wear there. Many of those pieces looked almost new.
Digital is in huge supply and very cheap. (redbook)
Before I did this crossover rebuild I did not like digital at all. (at least mine?)
After a few months with the Duelund's I do not know if one could go back? Before I wire them in for final I am going to put the originals in just hear. I already know I am going to think how could I have listen to that! |
Wow Stormem
Just got back from holidays and read the review. In my mind they are much better than VSF. I still think 15 or 16. But at least Tony made them reference grade.
For me having the VSF and CAST in series is working very well.
The vinyl I traded in to the record store is selling mostly for $29 to $75 used that is how good it looked and the Duelund's revealed the wear so painfully.
I do agree that the CAST image better as they are sooooo much quieter than VSF but still super natural. I love them both! You do not tire of them that is for sure.
Do you know of anyone who has tried them in electronics? |
Thanks a lot Stormen I would love to hear that pre-amp! |
Stormen I guess partsconnexion says they lent Tony the caps if I read that right and are glad the CAST is the new king. I really think it should be more than 13.5 though as 1 point over the VSF does not really show the difference.
Real rating 15 or 16 would be more like it! |
Stormen glad to hear I am not alone. I think does hit on the differences of Duelund making things sound natural compared to the plastic caps but Tony does not go far enough (at least for me) on what it means to have instruments sound real. For me it was huge! I could believe what the VSF did. Other caps just sounded fake in comparison and I (for one) enjoyed the "real" sound.
Tony also on the CAST rates them 13.5 compared to 12.5 and I for one still have a problem with anything being better than 10?? I think CAST are 10 and VSF are around 9 (maybe 8.5) and Supreme's or Silver in Oil are 5 to 6 at best and the cheap caps like what was in my (Linn) speakers are around 2! (Bennic)
Rating a Mundorf Supreme at 10 is just not right. 10 sounds like perfect and a Supreme is HUGELY lacking from even the VSF. If I had not done this myself I would have thought a 10 (Supreme) was good enough for me as I "thought" it would be small improvement after that. It shocked me (in fact I was confused by the CAST at first) on how big the difference as even from the VSF to CAST level. I do not think someone reading Tony's review would think the difference is a big as it really is.
I think a better review would be to say the only the Duelund's (that I have heard) and have good reason to believe one would need similiar construction meaning all natural to make music sound natural.
Duelund VSF (wayyyyyyy more natural sounding than the competition)
Duelund CAST takes the super natural sound of the VSF and makes what is a hard to believe MASSIVE reduction in noise level.
Is this more like what you would say Stormen? |
The partial poly power supply is done and will hear what it sounds like in the next few days.
Lots of stuff coming next while. Duelund inductor, Duelund and Jensen Paper Copper in tube caps and Duelund hook wire.
More ASC power supply caps and coupling caps going to be ordered. |
Dave confused by your statement? Do you mean Tempo should not say A is 3x better than B because what is 3x better? Or do you mean the 6x price might or might not be realitive to what value one person places on money to another?
I agree statements like Tempo's do re-inforce the notion of dimishing return. 3x improvement 6x cost. (so the smart person buys A) It is that notion of diminishing returns that had me skeptical on CAST. When I put them in I was getting ready for the difference to be like when I got 12 guage wire (30 years ago) something that was better but only on direct comparison. To my surprise the difference was huge! to them amount I did not think possible. This is not to say that I would not be perfectly happy with VSF's.
I think Stormen and I would agree there is a fundemental change in the Duelund caps. (or foil in general) Everything sounds way more real. The CAST do not go into a new direction just the same one with noise reduction. |
Sgmlaw
There are many questions I would like to ask you as I do agree with much of what you said.
I can't say for the Fishers as mine are all unrestored.
I can say that I have owned the Klispch for 28 years and they had the original foil in oil caps and NEVER sounded like they do now. The Duelund in the tweeter caps is so massively better it is not even funny. I have never heard Duelund in electronics but do find it hard to imagine they do not still sound super natural there to.
I have no problem saying that sometimes a cheap part is the best one but (in Duelund's case) their expensive part was worth every cent to me.
I am confused about the tube comment. My Fisher x101d is my favourite (the one that blew up) and it had Russian EH 7591's output tubes in it. Stereophile really like the Russian tubes? (saying in that case)
I have and am running right now a 6BQ5 x101st and it does do some things better than the 500c and x101d but prefer then 7591's. I do admit many do feel the way you do about the 6BQ5 amps. It might be mine? I also have a x202 that I am going to get checked out.
The x101st is running Telefunken tubes and Mullard rectifier and 3 of the 4 outputs are Raytheon's.
Any recommendations for the amp? I find it good but not near as good as the x101d and am looking for a output transformer for the x101d I found the x101d the best most natural sounding amp I have heard. There is not the dead silence between voices and instruments that the x101d has. Any idea what could be done to the x101st? The x101st is more aggressive and doesn't not have the interplay between musicians. More of a wall of sound.
All this being said I can see your love for the old Fishers. The x101d said Professional Series but that is just a name that Fisher was using at the time correct? |
Sgmlaw
Is not the x202 the same pre-amp section as the famous 400CX2? It is interesting you say the 7591s are beefier it is exactly that I think is why I like them better. Tight defined bottom end. Interesting you say that about the tubes as well as I have told the tech guy who has the x101d not to move any of the miss mash of tubes from where they are as I think it sounds fantastic! |
Dave I really liked Tempo's reviews more than Tony's as I found his confusing. When reading Tony's he gets the Duelund right, but not the magnitude. I do think the difference from Mundorf Supreme and Duelund VSF is huge! I think that is what Tempo is saying is the difference is HUGE but 3x may be strange wording. I also agree with Tempo as I found the Silver in Oil tilted the sound upwarded and (for me) I agree with Tempo and see no value in the Silver in Oil. Tony rates every more expensive Mundorf higher and many people I have heard do not like the Silver/Gold?
I wish Tony would come out with some adjusted numbers. I think only the best can be 10/10 and if he rates CAST the best (and I sure can not argue with that) than everything else should be less. I remember thinking a Sonicap would be good from Tony's rating of 8.5 and I think their crap! Tony rates nothing less than a 6 which is like all caps pass. Tempo at least says some are Tier F or whatever and that puts it into perspective. Tony's rating's give one a false sense of what they have.
Just more realistic numbers from Tony would be nice like a CAST at 10 VSF at 9, Supreme 6.5 and Sonicap at 5 and a Solen at 2 then if I read that I would know there was a difference in caps which there is. |
Smglaw
I do not know about that on the passive parts the difference is 10x with Duelund from the x101d, to x100st and 500c. The difference in the caps is shocking. The Fishers sound similiar one better than the other but still from the same family. Maybe plastic caps are all similiar but Duelund caps from even Mundorf are the equivalent of going to tubes from SS or more. Duelund is in my opinion the biggest improvement I have ever heard. Like I have said before I wish I had CAST mid range caps that I ordered and not the VSF that came in. It was (at the time $400) and would be well worth every cent and I am cheap!
That being said I would like a Fisher CX2 and if it was 10% as much better than Fisher int as Duelund is over regular caps I will be thrilled!
Every person I have had over hearing these speakers have all had the same comment and that is "that is what caps do!" Everyone is shocked at the difference not one person has ever said I can hardly tell the difference. The difference is so huge that they take time to take it all in. Same reaction all the time was first 30 minutes liked the old caps after that they could not believe what caps can do and were just shocked. One friend just shook his head for an hour in complete disbelief.
I am actually taking the speakers on the road in the spring to a Audio get togther so that other Audio guys can hear them. It is so huge (and Klipsch are big) that I feel it is well worth it for them for me to take them.
I have rolled many kinds of tubes in (from the 5 Fishers I have) and consider that all small potatoes compared to the passive crossover caps. Steen has turned me into a believer, no doubt. I do not think anything as important as the passive speaker crossover parts. |
That is great to hear Dave on the crossover being the most important (single cap) upgrade. I am quite excited to see what you will think of Duelund caps there. I think it is a fundemental change as opposed to incremental upgrade. The sound changes to real instruements that is hard to comprehend. That change has convinced me on Steen's findings on no plastic.
My system makes extremely real sounds but could benefit from from quieter (but even more real sounding) caps in the amp. I expect to be over the moon after that change. It is that "underlying calm" that I hope comes from coupling cap upgrade to Duelund. |
Dave I take it by what say on system approach you are still not convinced that the crossover is (and according to Steen always will be) the weakest link in the system. You are not convinced 50% of your speaker $ and 25% of system $ should be in the passive crossovers.
I am not argueing just curious as even I admit until I heard the difference from VSF (which was the then king of caps) to CAST no one could have convinced me all the noise that was still left with even VSF.
After hearing the difference I am a Steen believer that there was/maybe still is MASSIVE gains to be made in the passive crossover caps in noise reduction.
After what I am hearing about the CAST in electronics as soon as I can figure out which tube amp to use that is an area I am going to be going. I can not even imagine how they will sound compared to worn out vintage foil caps? I expect massive noise reduction.
I have a gut feeling from what I have read from Steen (no plastic in the chain) a vintage amp with vintage tubes because of the no plastic in the output trannies and point to point wiring and CAST coupling caps for the super natural quiet sound. What do you guys think crazy? Still sticking to foil like the original in the amp but I am sure the CAST are MILES, and MILES quieter. I do see they make 400v VSF's now. A more affordable option |
