I see that Face.
Is the foil cap Obligatto new as well???
I was waiting with baited breath on the CAST review. Somewhat nervous as well. I had this fear of looking down and seeing a 10 or something on the CAST! I hope to see a 14! (and new reference)
I am back to where the test started one speaker on vintage foils and the other on poly's. Only now it is Mundorf instead of Sonicaps. Back to SS for comparison. The sound is similiar except the Mundorf have more dynamics. A beefier sound. Funny my thoughts have not changed very much on caps since the start. |
One thing I wish Tony would do is go through his ratings and knock the numbers down. If a Duelund VSF is a 12.5 (out of 10) it gives the impression of stuff being to high. Make the Duelund (or whatever the reference is) a 10 and then put the Mundorf Supreme down to 6.5 and the Solens at 4. That would reflect more reality. That would say most factory speakers use a 3 or 4 (out of 10) part and a upgrade to to Supreme would be a upgrade to a pass from a failure. Right now it looks like everything above 10 out of 10 is gravy! (or something crazy)
The numbers he uses make it look like most are really, really good and some (like Duelund) are just stupid good (like 12.5/10) and I disagree with that. Undertow talked about dimishing returns and stuff like Tony's review make it seem that way, because if 10 is perfect why get 12??? |
Halcro any experience with the CAST??? I know the VSF is excellent but the CAST is just unknown to me? |
Well Undertow you could be right and I think you are as that is why I backed away from buying Duelund CAST inductors. Yes even Chris at partsconnextion thinks the tweeter cap being the most important. (and hardest to get right)
The Klipsch of course use and inductor and not a cap for the woofer. I was allowed to add to my Duelund order as it was open before the price increase which was good but allowed a one shot only order. I would have ordered a CAST tweeter cap to hear the difference if that was not the case. You may be right about dimishing returns. I will say the returns are NOT dimished by VSF at least in an no poly system.
You are right about the full range of caps in the system but I (think) are missing by far the biggest point and that is that crossover parts are only powered by the signal. This makes them MUCH more sensitive as they use the signal to power themselves. The "full" range caps in the amp are of course powered by the electricity in the socket and not the signal. This is why both Linn and Steen Duelund believe the crossover will ALWAYS be the weak link of ANY system.
All I was saying is the Duelund is specatular in a foil based system but even ONE plastic cap in the crossover degrades there value in my mind. My reference is still vintage foil cap in the midrange vintage tube amp and Duelund in the tweeter cap. It may switch to CAST in the midrange and (I hope) it does after they are installed. |
Undertow I can understand your non belief in the importance of a crossover cap as I admit ONE poly cap in the crossover and all is lost! I do not know why. (I can guess)
I would not say a "one time" base of less echo. The Duelund do much more than that.
No offense taken on the miracle cure with Duelund caps. Although the tweeters caps were the best (new) money I ever spent.
Undertow I did even say I only think the full effect of the Duelund only really shines in a fully non poly system. The Duleund was based on previous prices to me and I do not think I am going crazy as all the other options have proven to be let downs. (not hearing clarity caps) I do not think of Audio as a job of just being "good enough". I fully do admit and said if saving money was an object the vintage foil cap is very good (paired with the Duelund tweeter cap) and of course is free as I already owned it. You are right that these are not valuable speakers. No arguement here. ($500 is a little cheap as the last set sold on e-bay for $3k of similiar vintage) I will say with the vintage foil/Duelund they blow away my Linn speakers by a mile! I just hope the CAST is as good as I hope.
It is nice to hear we are in agreement of the importantance of the crossover allowing a much cheaper speaker to beat the pants off an expensive one if it has good parts. Before this I admit I would have doubted the importantance of the crossover. I just can not afford to try Clarity. I love the sound of Duelund so my only dilema was VSF or CAST. Duelund was bang on what I was looking for. Clarity might be great I do not know. I can just sayall the polys I tried I do not like and even vintage foil was better leading me to cut the chase and stay with foil. Now I hope they just get here soon! |
Last couple of days digital on SS and all Mundorf. YUCK! I now see why I went back to vinyl. That just makes it much more tolerable. Tomorrow back to foil caps and SS and vinyl for one more try. Until I got the vintage tube amp I thought my CD player sucked! I was going to sell it. I thought vinyl was the only thing to listen too.
Does anyone want some Mundorf caps? As soon as I get the Duelund I will do one last compare and then sell off the Mundorf. The biggest comparison for the Duelund will be to better the vintage, which is still the best in the midrange.
Just PM me. This will make an affordable try for anyone. If not they are going on e-bay. Values are Mundorf Supreme 2.2uf, 10uf, 3.3uf and a Mundorf Silver in Oil at 2.2uf.
I have a friend coming by with a vintage SET amp and a few others once the caps are in. He wants to hear for his Khorns as well. |
For guys waiting to hear about the CAST caps they are still coming. I have talked to partsconnexion and they will let me know when in. Put the stereo back to vintage tube amp and vintage mid cap and Duelund tweeter. By far the best combo I have. (in fact don't like any other combo)
Very excited about the CAST caps. It will be almost a month later this week. I know the caps take several days just to make.
Expectations are to have MUCH less resonance than the vintage and more detail as they are copper as opposed to aluminum in the vintage. This is likely the most excited I have been about an audio product coming. I am also curious as to how much better the highs will get. Right now the signal goes through the vintage and then to Duelund. I expect improvement there just because noise will not be added by the vintage caps. The Duelund is not better though with Mundorf (mid cap) than vintage. (the plastic effect of Mundorf seems to overwhelm the quieter cap)
I will also post on the difference that I find in the tweeter caps from VSF and CAST. I have enough to run one speaker with CAST tweeter caps as well. I have been told it won't be as big a difference as from the vintage to VSF. (CAST vs VSF) I would expect not and am prepared for that. (as the VSF is already excellent) |
Stormen those are huge! Can not even imagine how much they cost!
Stormen will I be able to tell the difference from VSF and CAST? Underow (I think) thought I may be into the point of dimishing returns. I wish they would just hurry up and get here.
Looking forward to it. What would you discribe the difference to be? (from VSF)
Another question how long did yours normally take to get built? Just shy of a month now. I know they just got back from holidays when my order was in. |
Hooked back up the turntable into the vintage amp and it seems quite good.
Not sure what I did the first time. Maybe it was not grounded right as it was noisy and now it is not at all.
Hooking back up the main system which has not even been running. (and not really missed) |
After hooking back up the LP12 into the vintage system I remembered why I love it.
I admit to being somewhat confused when I first got vintage tube amp and Duelund's in tweeters. The Lp12 did not sound good and digital did? I never felt that way before! The vintage amp has the seductive midrange but the extreme's (for sure bottom end) is maybe lacking. The Karik for sure is not as alive as the LP12.
So now things returning to normal as I prefer the turntable again in both systems. I have to admit though tubes do make digital much better as I thought the Karik was awful before. (in the all Linn system compared to LP12 it still is)
I find this audio interesting why so many guys will get a whole system based on what they like and then sell it all off and go in another direction. What causes that boredom? or do we start to hear something with some set of chacteristics we now like better?
It would be much cheaper to be like my daughter listening to a horrific digital download on the DVD player through the TV speakers and she thinks it sounds good! She doesn't hear the phasy sound.
5 weeks and counting should be soon according to what the guys are saying. |
Good news the capacitors have been shipped. Right on the 6 weeks guys were saying.
I know some guys are wondering about the caps and what is the difference from VSF and CAST. Should get an idea very soon.
I can say I am becoming Duelund ruined. You don't even want to listen to anything else. I do not want to hear the Linn speakers or the vintage cap Klipsch speaker. I know FOR SURE my favourite is the partial Duelund speaker and even one speaker is better than listening to the other system with two. Time has not worn out the Duelund effect.
What I am going to do is go to the high end store when this is done to hear there speakers again. I live fairly close to a store with systems of 100k+++. The Duelund makes my Linn speakers sound broken. I just want to make sure they are not. The store has top end tube gear and top Dynaudio and VPI HRX's and the top SME turntables as well. |
After this project is done I am thinking of doing a rebuild of the Linn speaker crossover. I read on the Duelund site there is a link back to Audiogon with a another guy who was shocked at what Linn used for crossover parts. I just want to say in Linn's defense it is not just them but most mass producers of speakers use shockingly cheap parts.
When this started months ago I did not even know if spending on Sonicaps was worth it. Now I have no higher priority than crossover parts. I never thought that would happen. |
Undertow
No I think they left Denmark on Monday. They are not to me yet. By the weekend would be nice but will see. I think they fly them over as parts said it does not take long. |
That's interesting Undertow and a bit concerning? Sure makes me wonder if something else is going on? Making by hand is a tough job to quote. It is interesting as I imagine after the price increase sales would have dropped dramatically at least I would have expected that.
They may have waited for my order as well as more. My original order was in late July. (before the price increase) I was just allowed to add to the order. At first I was ordering just one cap of CAST to try because I did not know how much (if any) better they would be. Since it was a one shot deal meaning I could not order at the old prices after original order was complete I got the CASt's now.
I am Ok with the time as I know the VSF's are worth the wait so I assume CAST is as well. I just figured (maybe hoped) they were taking their time knowing there are people waiting to hear the differnce from CAST and VSF. I believe I will be the only one on the net who is not from a company who will be talking about them in camparison. (which is only a tweeter comparison)
I know there are people who have had both but I am not aware of there comments. I was only nervous that CAST would somehow not be as good as VSF. It does happen in other companies where not always the most expensive is their best. I know many like some of the cheaper Mundorf's over Gold/Silver.
From what I have read CAST does not change the sound just better damping so even quieter. That I have got to hear. I have been told that not to expect the jump to CAST like it was from vintage. I fully expect that as in all Audio the diminishing return. (and the VSF is already at a VERY high level)
Speaking of people watching this link is now over 10k hits. |
Well my intial order went through end of July which is now 2 1/2 months. They never started those caps as the owner was on his honeymoon with his wife. He was back late Aug when the order was put through with the added parts. Which is now exactly 7 weeks.
I had to cut some slack for the owner who now just married. So since in Europe they shut down for a month and maybe large orders went through and could be causing this to take longer than thought. (normal is 6 weeks on the CAST so I understand) So I am just one week longer than normal. |
I did just talk to partsC and they say the rest of the back order is coming and may be here today. Apparently they have got a shipment in the couple of weeks. (just not ours) I guess there resistors sell very well. I did have someone on the board (e-mail me) who has got resistors recently. It is a small company and hand built is not like turning on a machine. I am wayyyy more hopeful/concerned on the sound then how long they take. From my point of view I have owned these speaker 27 years so far and am thinking long term. That is why I am spending more on the CAST even though they may not be that much better. I hope to amortize that cost over 20+ years. CAST likely would not make sense to a person who changes speakers all the time. Unless of course they have much deeper pockets than mine.
I am the odd guy in audio who would likes to keep equipment for a long, long time. |
That was a good point on the voltage. I of course do not need the high voltage. I wonder how much of the extra cost was due to that which is of no use to me.
I will be happy to be just done with this! Several months now of one speaker most of the time. This may sound strange but one really good speaker is better than two poor ones. Now two excellent ones this should be something. What I have noticed so far is you can hear around the instrument. Now feed those tweeters with a much quieter signal. Hmmm looking forward to it. |
Do you mean the Silver CAST? You know what I never really considered that? Not that I could afford it but just seems crazy to me. I would have a ton of stuff to put money into before Silver CAST.
I can say even the new high prices for the VSF's (Copper) I would still pay for sure for the tweeters. They are well worth it. I will know shortly on what this means for mid range.
In fact I am still so smitten with Duelund I would likely look to Aluminum VSF if cost was and issue still for the tweeters before I dropped down to another range. I would love to hear Tony Gee on Aluminum against other people's best. |
Undertow
They are both about the same price with the Duelund being somewhat more in bigger values. Not that that is anything to brag about! Both are crazy and I never condsidered either, but I am not convinced on that much value of silver. |
Halcro you say at the time there was no independent advice on the CAST over VSF. Is there now? I have not seen any?
I sure hope you guys are wrong on the no benefit of CAST. (no offense)
Undertow I sure hope it is not a critical application only to notice the benefit of CAST. I remember some guys saying the Duelund VSF was a waste and I have found it to be a huge jump from Mundorf and I would not call my system critical. In fact in my mind Mundorf has more in common with Sonicaps and cheaper caps than it does with Duelund.
I have been a (total) convert to Steen's thinking that the crossover is the most critical component of the system. That is the reason I have got the CAST. I NOW realise just how critical the crossover is. Now have I gone overboard??? Maybe? but I can say I have listened to more digital since I got the Duelund than in the last 20 years. Sometimes I pinch myself and say this is digital!
I would rate the tweeter caps as the BEST new money I have ever spent on gear, biggest improvement.
Now will the CAST be worth the extra??? I do not know but at least we should give Duelund a chance. Stormen said some guys found the VSF to sound a little rough compared to the CAST. I know I can not imagine that either. |
I think I found the problem in the vintage amp.
The one and only plastic cap the wire going in has gotton very hot. What I do not know is was it even supposed to be there?? Can anyone help with vintage Fisher schematics and more in particular fisher x101d.
I bought a capacitance testers. I wanted to know how the old Klipsch caps were. The tweeter caps test right on 2.0uf but sound noisy. The mid cap tests 14uf but sound good (real good) but should be 13uf.
I tested quite a few caps in the the fisher and very close to original value.
The problem with the plastic cap (in the fisher) is it seems to be added for no reason?? Also the value says brand KMC value 100uf and 200v No where else is there a vintage cap of this value??
Was this just someone doing there own sound mod?
It is clearly the source of the heat problem. I can not see any other damage. It guages out nowhere near 100uf? |
I just talked to parts and my order is in as well.
It seems there was some confusion with the CAST mid caps. I have only (and I say only) VSF for the midrange and two CAST tweeter caps coming. All in all this is Ok. Of course they are cheaper and as you guys say am I may be at the point of diminishing returns??? Maybe. At least I will be able to hear the CAST caps in the all critical tweeter section. Getting VSF's for the midrange does not make me afraid anyway!! Part of me was leary on the the CAST as you said unknown and if better how much better??? What scared me the worst was what if not as good?! I could deal with saying they were not worth the $ extra but what if worse! Scary thought!
I expect my order tomorrow or the next day as well.
My crossover works with the signal going through what will be the VSF mid cap and on to the CAST tweeter cap.
So I will be able to form an opinion on the difference and the value of the difference. |
Stormen and in the midrange?
I am out looking for another vintage tube amp and repair for mine. I am going to have to run two amps.
My CD player sounds poor with the SS pre and amp. But then again it always did. Hard and brittle.
So anyone reading this in my opinion you do not get the full Duelund with SS (or at least my SS) and I did find even one plastic cap in the circuit does not allow full effect. |
I did find out the cap runs from the 12Ax7 low level (phono pre-amp) tube to the output tube. All along I have thought this amp sounded very good on digital and terrible with the turntable. It blew up when using the turntable.
Also does anyone know if Electrolytic caps are used on tube phono stages?
I know I read these tube amps were supposed to have decent phono stages. I found this one lousy! Great line stage.
Another question does anyone have any recommendations for the cap for the phono stage? |
Stormen you are upsetting me. That quote of the CAST being quite a bit better than VSF? They made a mistake on my order and it would have taken 6-8 weeks to get CAST midrange caps. So I said just ship me the VSF's! I have two CAST tweeter caps (and two VSF tweeter caps previous order) and I am going to compare against each other. Now when you say the CAST is quite a bit better is that in the midrange as well??? I can see in the tweeter caps but even in the midrange? This is the question people have thought me nuts already and way past the point of diminishing returns. Then you go and say the CAST is THAT much better.
The order has been sent to me and I expect it tomorrow or the next day at the latest. I will likely never know what a midrange CAST cap sounds like. Now that the price has shot up. That is something I am hearing very little of that makes me wonder?? The CAST prices were once 50% more than VSF and now are 100% more. Which is why I ordered CAST in the first place based on old prices. Is it still worth the $ for CAST based on new prices?
Undertow my understanding of the CAST was not just about voltage but even lower resonance due to the high pressure construction. (lower resonance I just could not imagine and had to hear) It was the CAST that went up the most in price, much more than the VSF which is why I ordered (but only got some) CAST caps as they are now out of my range.
Undertow I am Ok if the VSF goes toward warm and open as I have horn speakers.
Stormen it sounds like Duelund says the CAST is basically a oil cap? Like the vintage ones I have?? (but of course with a massive reduction in resonance) Then maybe I do not understand the construction differences. The CAST as I thought them were the same as VSF except less resonance.
This is what confused me on the original order. The VSF sound like I did not know digital even could! So are they the ideal match for me even if they are less costly? Spending more money does not always mean better even for us audio nuts on the lunatic fringe!
Stormen on the breakin?? I do find the VSF to be sounding better today then when I got them but there was never any not wonderful sounding part of the break in except maybe first few minutes.
I do know Tony Gee has the CAST in for testing and it will be interesting if he ranks them a 14 or second to the VSF for whatever reason? |
Halcro mine did as well but (I think) sound even better now, again not much and nothing like the instant improvement they made. It sounds like the CAST may be a different beast.
Duelund does say the same thing as Stormen though about the CAST anyway.
Has anyone even heard of someone who did not like the VSF??? or liked another cap better? I have not heard of it.
Like I have said I think Steen will go down in Audio history. |
I know this is going to be hard to believe after all this time but the caps are here and the midrange cap is hooked up.
You guys ever notice the smell? They have this all natural smell. |
Halcro nice system.
The gentleman I bought my LP12 from bought a Raven as well. Working well for you? What did you have before? |
Just the first few hours on the mid range VSF Duelund with the well broken in VSF's om the tweeters.
Trying to get a handle on this.
This is not the same change as the tweeter caps. The first time I heard them (mid cap Duelund) my daughter was down here singing more than ever!
This is not the slam dunk that the tweeter caps were for two reasons.
The best cap I have here for the mid range was the original oil filled foil cap. It was miles better than the Sonicap and the Mundorf Supreme. The Sonicap I have sold long ago. The Mundorf sat here and I MUCH preferred the oil filled foil cap. Where in the tweeter cap all caps are much better than the originals.
I am going to have to go back and forth with the vintage and the Duelund VSF. Less resonance with the Duelund which I knew was in the vintage but it does sound harder???
The Duelund is not like the feeling I got with the Mundorf of falling in the ditch going what happened? But it is not all good either. As shocking as it sounds I could pull out the Duelund and put back in the vintage mid range cap?
The Duelund and vintage sound much more alike then any of the plastic caps.
Right now it is wayyyy closer than I ever would have guessed and so far it is still
1. Vintage for mid range.
2. Duelund VSF for mid range. (sounds rougher than the liquid filled vintage??? Shocked and not sure what is going on)
Then a long way down to
3. Mundorf Supreme (with the Russian PIO by pass)
4. Mundorf Supreme
5. Sonicaps
Tomorrow I will try the CAST with the vintage in the mid range. Also I am going to try the SS gear and analog (LP12) front end.
Somewhat concerned as every other cap I have tried the initial impression was similiar even after many hours and different gear combos. That will mean I will have spent a ton of money on little or no improvment. Something none of us ever wants. |
Magfan the part that smoked (the capacitor) was the only new part I know of in the amp.
I had used the Fisher for a few months and tons of hours but when the phono stage was hooked up it went up in smoke. I wonder if the cap was the incorrect voltage? |
Undertow
These speakers are made with a outboard crossover. You may be right with the whipped cream though.
The first whipped cream (Duelund tweeter capacitor) made the desert MUCH better. Maybe I was (incorrectly) thinking more whipped would be even better.
But what if it is a simple as digital going through a tube amp going through a liquid filled capacitor (the vintage one) took all the digital edge off? Like I said I had never heard ANY digital sound like that. I did not even believe my CD player could sound that good!
I am going to put the vintage back in the midrange and listen for a bit then put in the CAST tweeter caps. Might be interesting.
Undertow I was not just trying to improve my speakers part of it was maintanance. (28 year old caps) That is how the whole thread started. The speakers got noisy and I started with cheap plastic caps (Sonicaps) then Mundorf (ordered one Duelund just to see) and was shocked how they were all downgrades except the Duelund whose foil design match perfectly.
Back to the vintage in the midrange.
One thing for sure is foil caps sound very different (and better in my mind) than plastic. The Duelund and vintage sound much closer than any of the plastic caps to the foil.
Next putting in the CAST tweeter caps. |
These threads can be good to get a bunch of guys opinions so that one does not lose their head in the process.
Yes I know once I spent on the crossover I was locked into the speakers. The all vintage crossover does sound like a worn out speaker though so the money was spent replacing worn out parts not just for change sake.
I have the CAST in the tweeters now. Things might be looking up there. Even right out of the box they sound very good! |
Listened to the Linn speakers today before the Klipsch. They have to go or be fixed!
Undertow I should not have made it sound like I was disapointed with Duelund. It is more I was shocked how good the vintage (mid cap) was/is in comparison to all.
You have and others have said about this being to much money in fairly cheap speakers. I find used Khorns to be quite expensive. Here is a 40 year old set for $4k!
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1227224990&/Klipsch-Klipschorn-1968-oiled-
What do you get for that?? Even if one loved Klipsch sound these caps are 40 years old and I know for sure my 28 year old tweeter caps are shot and how long before the mid caps are gone if not? So for $4k you have to buy (in my mind) Duelund caps new wiring. So you are going to have $7k into a set of 40 year old speakers. That is not cheap in my mind. I see say Linn's Akurate 242 for less than $5k.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1228163709&/Linn-Akurate-242-
at a couple of years old. Or as set of B&W or take your pick whatever company you want $7k used is quite a bit of money and for 40 year old speakers that is a lot! |
Having the CAST's in for 12+ hours so far.
I am going to wait awhile but the CAST's are not the same as VSF and seem to tilt the sound (quite a lot) to the bass.
I have went up to the amp several times to see if I have turned up the bass? (vintage remember tone controls)
CAST and VSF sound very different. (so far) I did not expect that? It is not just lower resonance they are a different sounding cap.
Undertow I was thinking about the vintage cap. Maybe a little liquidity in the mid range is not a bad thing? Give voices smoothness? Now that liquidity might not work in the highs where you need clarity? The plastic caps sound absolutely dead. Was that not Mundorf's intention with the Silver in Oil to get the liquid sound? |
Getting a baaaaad feeling I am going to wish I had of pushed for CAST for the midrange. |
Duelund did say this is a quote from an e-mail
"The CAST has to my ears a quite lower noise floor than the VSF, right out of the box the HF may sound a little dulled on the CAST but this dissappears completely after 7 days".
I just wanted to say to everyone I am in no way disapointed with Duelund. Maybe my words confused some.
I only meant that the tweeter caps were such a MASSIVE improvement that the midrange was somewhat of a let down in comparison. That being said the Duelund tweeter caps was the biggest improvement I have ever heard in any upgrade including new sources or amps or anything.
Now piling on the the hours and I am not concerned.
Steen in his writings did say that foil caps or variations of the that were the way to go and did say some of the vintage were quite good. That is where Duelund gets there idea's from.
I am running the Duelund VSF in the midrange and the CAST tweeter caps. The caps are much faster in the midrange than the vintage. Almost like the CD running to quick.
Tommorow is the big day for me as I am hooking up the Lp12 which is my main concern anyway. I always thought the Karik a crappy CD player anyway.
I was only shocked that the CD player sounded good with the vintage cap (mid range) which I think is likely slow and round sounding to smooth out the digital.
With having the all vintage Klipsch there I can switch over at any second and do and always break out into laughter. At one point at the start of this thread I was not sure which was better the Klipsch or Linn speakers after hearing a Duelund crossover speaker both are just an absolute joke! |
Sherod I have VSF for the mids and a set of CAST for the tweeters only. It is not that I am unhappy with the VSF in the midrange. It is likely as simple as the VSF's revealing the weak source. I suspect it is the slower vintage cap going through oil smoothing out the digital stair step sound. I am running 24/7 for break in. (don't want to pile the hours on cartridge)
Part of the reason for this is I did lots of reading on caps (tweaks) and guys would say they liked or did not like but I never knew what kind of improvement it meant for the buck.
The tweeter (Duelund) caps made at least 10x the difference from an old NAD Cd player to a Linn Karik or at least 10x the difference that I heard from a 1k pre amp to a $3k+ pre amp. In the store I have heard 3k CD player to the 6 or 7k CD player and the Duelund in just the tweeter caps is 10x that. So I am not unhappy with Duelund in the midrange as the vintage blew away the Mundorf's I tried. So the vintage was not weak in the first place as a 28 year old cap still sounded MUCH better than brand new (200 hours on) Mundorf Supreme.
I have personally e-mailed and thanked Duelund for making these fantastic foil caps. |
Break in
Hey Jude
Starting to open up (CAST) I can easily tell when they are playing the the tri-angle or when Ringo hits the crash cymbal and the tambourine is being played. You can hear the individual cymbals of the tambourine.
I could hear the tri-angle before but could not hear the tambourine's cymbals.
It's actually crazy the detail.
I need a better front end digital. |
Everything running without a glitch until Duelund went into the midrange. I went back to vintage and it clearly sounded better with the CD player. Just switched to the Lp12 and then going to put back in the Duelund.
I know my caps are bad (with out a doubt) but can not understand why a worn out vintage cap sounds better with the Karik in the midrange. I THINK it is just combo of the Duelund revealing the weak source and sounding digital.
This has confused me all along as my Lp12 has not sounded as good as the Karik and nobody ever feels that way. I once thought of just selling the Karik and not even having any digital it was just so far behind.
Still experimenting. Ideally I can get things back to the Kairn/Klout with the Lp12. I have all my money in the Lp12 and can not understand why things went bad. (following that Linn theory of spend all your money on the source)
Holy Crap!
To make matters worse the vintage amp just blew up!!!! Scared the crap out of me! Smoke rolling up by the transformers.
Thank Goodness I was just sitting here. Could have burn't the house down!!! Smoke rolling up out of the transformer and power output tube area.
Maybe I was playing with fire running an antique 24/7. Well actually I was!
Any idea of what could cause it? I think the phono stage has a defect or maybe a short and caused it to short out. It seemed to make funny sounds on the phono stage?
It happened right when writing this. |
Well at least no damage to the speakers or the caps. Hooked up the SS to make sure it was not my wiring. I never seen a electrical device blow up! |
Have the Duelund's in VSF in midrange and the Linn Klout/Kairn hooked up.
Disregard any negative about Duelund in the midrange. It sounds very, very good now. I am wondering if something wasn't going on the vintage amp before it blew up.
Also I need the Duelund mid caps now anyway as the modern amp hates the vintage cap. (sounds awful)
Also the LP12 destroys the CD player as it should with the SS gear and Duelund caps in the crossovers.
Halcro, Stormen I would like to hear what you are running types of speakers and tube amps vintage, modern or SS. Yes we should have the Duelund club. I know my non Duelund speakers sit disconnected from any amp and will either be sold or upgraded. I can hear the poor quality caps of those speakers and can't stand it!
I know I still prefer the vintage amp for the ultimate in realism. (with the Duelund's of course) Have you guys found all natural foil systems to be the best? I find one plastic cap in the crossover and you do not get the full Duelund effect and even the SS amp is not allowing the Duleund's to do quite all they can.
I would really like to hear what you guys have found. It is a much better thread for others to hear how to max out these caps. |
Yes I did.
I read too much before doing mine. My daughter and I are going through my vinyl collection this weekend to sort out the worn ones. (she loves doing that and I am not sure why) Where I had doubts and was not sure before there is no doubt now! You can hear clear as day a worn or even slightly worn vinyl.
I am wiring up the other speaker tomorrow.
Also getting another vintage amp. Looking right now. I have become convinced that there is something about the vintage amps. Maybe the resistors or caps or maybe just the tubes. Not sure yet.
My SS sounds like listening in Black and White. I know some say tube amps are colored. Give me color over Black and White any day.
One thing is for certain I have become a HUGE Duelund fan. Upon switching from one speaker to the other the difference is staggering.
I have become a fan of not just the caps but Steen's findings.
I am buying a second amp that is largely the same, for parts as well. I want all plastic out. I have been reading some vintage stuff and guys say that when they change the resistors and caps in the amps you lose the sound. Of course they will have been going to plastic caps.
This has been very humbling for me. I used to think you needed to spend a ton of $ on a system. |
Sorry guys no camparisions from CAST and VSF yet. Looking for another vintage amp. I blame myself very stupid leaving that old amp on that long. Should have had a cooling fan on it.
With the SS it is just not good at all. Can not fault Duelund just a poor match.
I will have one or two vintage tube amps going in a week or two.
You do not get that super realism Duelund can deliver with the (vintage) tube gear on this SS.
In fact it is not a whole lot better than than the vintage caps.
If I was to have done the caps based on SS I would not have been to thrilled. If I did not know what Duelund could do I would in fact be upset.
Duelund in my mind is a completely different cap and may need no plastic caps in the system and maybe no SS to show what they are capable of.
I know I have said the caps are the best money I have ever spent and they are with the tube gear and maybe the worse money I have spent with SS as they do not move the earth like they can.
Oh well at least the cap burn will be done by the time the tube amp is hear. |
I will check it out for sure Undertow.
I feel not ready to comment on the CAST till the tube amp gets here. (so not much to say) I bought a 500c and will be buying another vintage tube amp or two as well. Not going to have less than two working ones again. I will likely change the woofer inductor as well. Sorry for not finishing the thread but unexpected smoke slowed things down.
I can understand your feeling of being worth it on the crossover being more $ than speakers.
I still must say though Duelund not worth it on SS. (or at least mine) The stunning difference the caps make on vintage tube gear does not carry over to the SS. I have theory's but am not sure why?
The difference from the vintage and the newer SS is mindboggling. So much I can not even comment on the CAST vs. VSF with this setup. I have this theory that the tolerances (meaning cap tolerances) are not as important as material type of the cap. By my conclusion in the midrange that the vintage foil and Duelund sounded VERY much a like. One being a crude device another state of the art and both were good and all the plastic caps were poor.
Doesn't matter as I will own no SS in a short while anyway. Likely never again! Also never to own poly caps again either. A unmistakable fakeness (to me) is added by them.
I do have this theory on resonance. I think we need just the right amount. Or at least resonance is like tube distortion. I could hear the resonance in the mid range vintage cap and it is not offensive like the distortion from the SS amp. Like a natural resonance. Where the crude vintage caps run into trouble is in the tweeters. The resonance there comes across as noise and distortion. Not painfull SS noise just a fog kind of noise.
So Undertow I do not have a lot of confidence that a air core 12 guage inductor is going to make much difference. I am going to do it just to hear it but do not have high hopes. I hope your right and it does in my speakers. Always want improvement. I do have concerns about the plastic on the inductor. I do not know if plastic in an inductor is the same negative as plastic caps?
If the plastic coated 12 guage inductor does not sound as good (in my case) as the lower guage iron core (plastic free) vintage inductor I will feel very confident that plastic is the problem and will likely buy Duelund (or other plastic free) Inductor and speaker wire. |
Will be able to test caps soon with at least 4 different vintage tube amps if not more.
Lost my mind over vintage. I want spare parts for a lifetime.
I had heard only new tube and SS gear.
Read a good link on a guitar amp site on why vintage sounds better. Points were.
Transformers now are wound different using a plastic core. Is this correct? Anyone know? Paper bobbins opposed to plastic.
Point to point wiring
Circuit boards act as a capacitor. Is this correct? The site said only point to point wiring does not do this and they prove it by having two wires run in opposite direction.
Of course they talked about caps and resistors as well being better. |
Sorry Dave they will be mailed within one hour. I "really" did want to hear them in the electronics. I am sorry for the delay but testing caps can be expensive. I was never going to keep Dave's caps when the amp blew that slowed things down. One can see from e-bay my buying of 3 tube vintage amps but of course they are Dave's caps and will be mailed today. I will be listing the Mundorfs at 50% off new on e-bay today. So if anyone wants to try Mundorf's e-mail me before and you can have them.
I have decided not to fix up the Linn speakers and now for sure do not need the parts.
Also today another Linn Klout amp and pre-amp. (Kairn) I have already sold one so whatever I have said about thinking vintage tube gear that great and Duelund that great one can see that it is no bull as you can see the results for sale. |
Mundorf Supreme 10uf
Mundorf Supreme 3.3uf
Mundorf Supreme 2.2uf
Mundorf Silver in Oil 2.2uf
All just one of each.
Good deal for any buyer. I have them listed at 50% and include free shipping. I have not put all on yet but will.
Testing caps is an expensive hobby overall. The Sonicaps sold for around 50% new. If one does buy them from me you will not suffer further depreciation.
Dave your caps are on their way.
I did really want to hear them though. I am very curious about the teflon in electronics. Oh well, another time. The Russians at least you can play with without wasting a ton of money.
Buying caps in not like buying an amp used. You spend a lot testing and end up with just one and the others have not much value.
I have learned when buying a speaker I would want to know what the crossover is made of. A complicated one could break ya! |
Sorry forgot to say Thanks Dave.
I was never going to keep them just wanted to hear them. (in electronics) Wish the amp did not blow up! The amp blew up the day the CAST caps came in. Actually worried I wired something up wrong for a minute.
Thanks for the link to AK guys. I am getting some much needed help there.
With half a dozen vintage amps to try I may need it! |
Dave the "losing my mind over vintage" is what feels like a good description.
I started fixing up old speakers and ended up selling everything I owned! All to buy some old junk! (that sounds great but still) So it feels like I am losing my mind!
I think the speakers (Linn are sold) and will sell the last of the electronics off this week. To think I was just looking to fix a second system set of speakers!
So Duelund can be dangerous! (just kidding) |
All the Mundorf caps are for sale very cheap on e-bay. Includes free shipping. (50% off new and I am paying for shipping)
Today I bought some Klispch Heresy's (I's) for Alnico tweeter and midrange in case needed. When down to one system one needs parts. Might see what Duelund does there (tweeter caps) as they are the same tweeter caps as the AA network.
Lots of Linn gear for sale as well. |
