The capacitor that has been replaced runs from the output tubes. So I assume (no doubt) this is one that makes a great deal of difference to sound?
Another question have wondered. Some guys say tubes sound slow and lack bass defintiton. The SS gear does sound faster but unnaturally faster. Is the SS gear better at driving through the poor quality caps? The super natural Duelund highs on the vintage tube gear is not near so good on SS and not worth the $ if you have SS gear in my mind.
A Day in the Life on SS.
Ringo's drumming nowhere near as real sounding. On the vintage tube the song is about Ringo drumming and the orchestra back behind which is brought forward at the end of the song. The SS gear captures none of this. Also at one point on the tube gear John seems to float again this does not happen on the SS gear as the sound stage is flat from front to back also mechanical and lifeless.
I am ordering Mundorf Supreme for midrange today (even though likely to go to Duelund) I need to hear the difference. (even if have to lose money on them) |
Dgarretson
Could it be those hand made (wad of gum) capacitors? Clearly someone wound them up by hand! I did notice that everything (on caps) was +-10% which is sloppy by todays standards. If it was the output transformers over decades why then do so many people talk about loss of sound quality after caps or resistors changed? Do you know anything about the new Duelund resistors are they just the old design basically brought back again?
When one looks at a vintage tube amp with hand made capacitors point to point wiring and to be honest a heck of a lot of work it is easy to see why manufactures don't do that anymore unless of course you spend a lot today.
What would a tube amp cost today using Duelund level of parts quality for resistors and caps etc? I bet mindboggling! |
Mundorf Supreme's are being ordered for testing and one of the guys from the site is going to send some Russian Teflon's.
We are going to see if a stable good cap like a Mundorf Supreme what the effect is when bypassed with Teflon.
I am going to put the Mundorf's back in to test on the SS.
I would NOT spend the money on Duelund with SS unless things change when the mid caps are replaced. All the fantastic improvements are NOT being realized with SS. Yes it sounds better than vintage but nothing like the Duelund's sound like with the tube amp.
On a side note my tubes on the Fisher x100d are the same Russian Electro Harmonix tubes that Stereophile said were "fantastic" in the Fisher 500c. (which is the same as mine without tuner) I sure can not argue with that statement. They just came with the tube amp.
I had to go out to the hardware store as the tube amp takes spades for connection and the SS takes banana's.
No way I can listed to this for long! |
Undertow
You could be right as Bryston was another horrible match to Klipsch as well. I have had Linn's lower line of amps and they were softer.
I am still in shock with the vintage tube. I put it back in this weekend. The caps will be here today or tomorrow and that may be part of the problem as quick foil caps that are worn distort. With SS (at least my SS) it may match up better with the slower poly (Mundorf) caps. Will know very soon. |
Mundorf Supreme caps are in.
I will be installing tonight. Dynamics you can tell right away but it will take time to of course fully break in.
I want to get acquainted with them before Duelund's come in to understand the difference. |
This is first few moments of impression of Mundorf Supreme in midrange (still Duelund in tweeters)
A little rougher in the midrange then the vintage caps. Dynamics are very close not like the change to Sonicaps. (which were MUCH less)
The mid range drone has not went away as much as expected.
Thinner then vintage so far.
Highs are not as good after going through the Supreme's.
Overall a fairly large step down from vintage in "realness". This of course is wayyy to soon to make these comments as permanent. More of a thing for me to look back on. Sound is much more grainy compared to the vintage foil caps.
They seem somewhat slower although nowhere near as slow as Sonicaps.
In the tweeter caps I thought any of the Mundorf Supreme's Mundorf Silver in Oil or Duelund's were a step up right off the bat.
Not so in the midrange? I am also not hearing the amazing noise reduction? |
Sound is slower for sure and no even close to as "life" like.
Funny that the tweeters have gotten rougher sounding? The super naturalness of the speakers is gone!
Right now I am very disapointed. I hope they break in better than they sound now.
Sound is hard brittle and broke up even in the highs and what's worst of all fake. The sensational realness is gone.
The Mundorf's are not much smoother than Sonicaps in the mid range (hench the Tony Gee rating of 9) but they are much more dynamic. But if it does not improve (and HUGE) I would put the vintage foil back in for sure without a doubt.
This might make some vintage Klipsch "AA" foil caps a bargain used if you can find a decent one. They go cheap on e-bay. |
The hours in this breakin are NOT going to be as fun as with the Duelund in the tweeters. That was very quickly a revalation and that provided huge enjoyment. This is like driving into the ditch and hoping you come out! (breakin)
It has cost me money but may save in the end as I will likely never buy another new amp if it has any poly caps in it. I will for sure have to hear it in my system. No more new speakers either with poly.
I will likely never buy another poly cap either. Flawed by design???
I think Mundorf realises this and that is why they have added oil to their's. Trying to get the best of both world's the cheap production costs of poly and liquid sound of oil. |
Undertow I will let you try that one and report back.
I have been burned enough. Even though the Duelund was very expensive it was at least better. So no regrets! Spending $120 on caps for one speaker midrange is not a big deal but when it is not as good as what you had then that seems expensive.
It is not just my crossover caps but when the vintage amp (with only one poly) hammered my much, much more expensive pre-amp (2003 or 04) and amp that was it for me.
Been a very valuable lesson to me. I used to lust after a Linn Kontrol and Klimax. (at crazy money) Not any more!
It is going to be vintage tube and foil caps in the crossover and Duelund when I can't get vintage or really want to spend the $ on something important.
I am already looking at how to structure my system as I will need one or two working vintage amps and parts to keep them going as I do not believe we will ever go back to foil caps on mass.
I hope the Clarity does solve the weakness of poly caps, but to be honest I have my doubts. Even if one does not buy Duelund's I think it is great/sad that they have exposed current methods as not very good. |
I prefer to not sound like I am going nuts but maybe that is what it sounds like.
You may be right Undertow on the Clarity being the best for the $. There is a difference in Poly's no doubt.
Sound of Supreme's
They do give the system more bass.
They are slightly slower. (than vintage)
They have less noise than vintage.
Effects on "A Day in the Life" Beatles (+2 on bass tone controls you gotta love 'em)
With the vintage caps the song has wonderful balance and is beautiful. Ringo is drumming is his own space and Paul is playing bass to the right everything in balance orchestra behind. (until the end when it is brought forward) There is a time when John voice is made to float.
The Mundorf Supreme's shift tonal balance to the bass. The balance of the song is out of whack. (paul now dominates) Ringo's druming is slower. There is not even close to as much front to back in the sound stage. Everything is more etched and harder sounding. The sound is also more aggressive. The Supreme's are a aggressive dynamic cap. Maybe that is why some preferred the Sonicaps and called them more neutral. Kind of like fake dynamics. Like a loudness switch.
The vintage/Dueland paints a beauty and Mundorf almost attacks you. I guess I can see why some like Sonicaps better this would get tiring after awhile and not sound natural. |
Tonight I am going to pull out the Mundorf and do a burn in on a lamp.
This will take the caps up in hours without having them in the system for 400 hours!
I see why guys do things to burn caps in. If you don't like them 400 hours is an eternity! |
HiFisoundguy I had seen those ones too did not know they were out of business?
What makes foil caps so expensive to make? I know they say they are hand made at Duelund and of course that costs. But why do they have to be hand made?
If labour is the main costs I am surprised there are not Chinese knock-offs? Or are there?
I did notice on putting back in the vintage caps that the noise was slightly higher than Mundorf. (but I did know that before) I have wondered about what can be done to them to quiet midrange vintage caps down? (tweeter caps are just to far off Duelund) Could they be dipped in something? Would that work? I did go up and flick the midcaps to see if I could hear some vibration distortion and could not. So is the higher noise level not caused by external factors but internal?
On the upside foil caps are much more musical with nothing sounding out of whack. The (very short hour Mundorfs) tend to exaggerate sounds of instruments and of course sound harsh and slow. |
Undertow
How does Clarity with th MR address the speed difference of poly caps?
I have hooked back up the Lp12 into the system now. Last time I had a hum this time not???? Don't know why maybe not grounded as weel before.
But the phono section of the vintage amp does not seem to be so good. Is this normal? In SS there is a big benefit to vinyl is that not the case with tubes so much? Or do I need a phono stage? |
Dgarretson
I have heard (but not tried) that they are a no brainer resistor and very good. |
Undertow I do believe that the Clarity is very good. I just if possible do want to stick with Duelund.
There is something with the poly caps I have tested anyway that is somehow fake? I am not sure what it is. As soon as say the Sax's breaks up the mind goes, not real? With poly caps there is sounds but the mind does not say Wow that is clearly a (whatever) I have to try and figure it out.
In one of the Beatles songs on the vintage/Duelund you can hear the tri-angle no problem and "know" that is what they are playing. You can feel the energy of it as well. That song is Hey Jude and on the Mundorf's it is really pathetic really. Almost not even the same song.
With Poly caps there is a sterilization of the senses. The Mundorf's although quiet are still rough sounding. They reduce the sound to beat not instruments.
Foil caps can not all the time make it so real but they can some of the time make it uncanny real. The poly's are never doing that.
I am in the rough spot now where each cap reveals (vintage/Mundorf) the others flaws and you are happy with neither.
I would chose the vintage though more noise and real instruments beats less noise and fake sounding.
What causes this? Undertow do the Clarity caps make instruments sound real?
Here is another guy who thinks the foil types are much better than poly. Although I would not say "bright" is the exact right word. "Fake" would be my discription and this is only on direct comparison can one tell.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1222484923
Undertow if I was to try another cap it would have to be of similiar design to Duelund a stack foil or foil cap of some kind.
I feel a little burned right now and frustrated. The Mundorf's would have been hammered by the vintage when they were new. (noise was a lot less) |
I can't wait to hear your impression of Duelund's.
Do you have any all vintage tube amps as well? I am not sure what the effect will be of them if there is poly in the system?
What is the price comparison from them to Clarity?
Duelund to me is just a known effect to me Clarity is unknown (barring what you have said) but I am getting strong feelings on NO poly caps.
This doing the crossover rebuild to me has been excellent.
It has totally changed my sense of what matters and what does not.
Doing this changed my whole thoughts on audio. |
Undertow I do have a friend who is going to come over when done to hear the Duelund's and he is also a Khorn owner who wants to know.
I have already asked him to post on here his thoughts.
I feel it is good to have more than 2 or three vintage Klipsch owners impressions. |
Retesting the vintage and Mundorf's. The gap is closing with the Mundorf's as they break in. (compared to vintage)
On the plus side Mundorf brings out more bass.
They still sound rougher than the vintage and always sound fake but they are quieter. They have a "stereo" sound to them vintage foil has a "real" sound.
I will put in Teflon for bypass. |
I put what I thought was the Teflon at only .44 of 12.7uf total value and thought the sound was smoothed out somewhat.
I find out those were the Paper in Oil ones. I was surprised to be honest of any change with such a small bypass. But the change was real.
It would have been interesting to try a pile of the Russian Paper in Oil.
I have the Teflons in now. |
I am getting a handle on the Mundorf vs. vintage.
Vintage/Duelund sounds MUCH more real. When listening to the Mundorf's there is a tension through the shoulders. The mind trying to figure out what they are playing. It feels like going down stairs on your bum. You want to go turn the stereo down as it is very tiring.
With the vintage/Duelund it gets the music right much more often and when it doesn't sound right for some reason not offensive.
It has been an expensive lesson $250 in Mundorf caps and $100 in Sonicaps that I have no use for but will sell for something.
Foil caps simply sound like music and poly's sound like a stereo.
You can feel the whole body relax when foils are in and you want to listen to music. Now I understand the 30yr fascination with these speakers and NOT all Klipsch as I owned heresy II's (and did not like at all, cheap caps no doubt) Even Khorns after they switched off AA's did not sound so good to me either.
Undertow you are right that Duelund is expensive but at least I feel good about spending the money.
If I was on a tight budget (and who isn't) I would change tweeter caps (to Duelund) and use vintage foil in oil cap for the midrange. Vintage foil mid range is likely better than ANY (in my mind) Poly cap.
Steen's right put those things back in computers or non audio areas.
A real bargain on e-bay would be someone's old Klipsch "AA" crossover and just change the tweeter caps. Sound would be MUCH better than new and wayyyyyy better than any poly cap I have heard. |
Ait
Yes the thread has been wayyyy longer than I ever thought it would be myself.
Is your active system Linn? or another kind?
That was/is the alternative as I own an all Linn system and only need one more amp and aktiv cards to be passive crossover free.
Linn has maintained all along that aktiv crossover and more amps is cheaper than high quality passive. (like Duelund level) It may be cheaper on the used market. New Linn amps are not cheap either.
G_24
That has been an issue I have wondered as well is a very good passive better then aktiv? Aktiv has a circuit board and the effect of those components on the sound right?
Linn does talk about there new boards being better (which they may be) but that indicates weakness in the begining.
Duelund does seem to be signing up quite a few speaker companies to their list.
I am thinking of wiring a "A" network this weekend, which is less parts again. (one less inductor and one less tweeter cap) So somewhat less cost.
Sorry for the length of this thread but when I looked at doing any of the recommended choices people thought, none of them would have had me very happy.
My choices were
1. Sonicaps
2. Mundorf Supreme
3. Mundorf SIO (which is the one I thought I wanted without hearing ANY of the three I guess I like the oil idea)
I am glad I did not do any of the three to be honest as they all were downgrades in some way and some by a lot in my opinion.
What was strange is there were people who would say any of those are much better than the originals?
In the midrange the best cap I have heard so far is STILL the vintage. Duelunds are coming (now that owner is back from honeymoon) and I do hope they are better. (I "think" they will be)
This rebuild proved to be not as quick or as simple as I thought but I have learned a lot.
I thought I did owe it to the Klipsch though as for almost 30 years I have not wanted for anyone's speakers. How many people do we know who are always changing speakers and at great cost.
I do want to compare this system when done to a fully loaded Linn aktiv with their top speakers, just to see. Even with the Duelund (expensive parts!) I will still have chump change into this compared to a system like that. I do know this system smokes my current Linn passive system by a MASSIVE margin.
One thing you do not have with this is the look factor! |
Ait
This is a quote from a Linn website with a well respected guy there listing his best upgrades ever.
Those 5140's are my speakers and that Klout is my amp.
He has that upgrade listed BELOW going from tri-wired to quin wiring on the speakers. That is not a big jump to me?????
(from Linn website)
What are your best ever upgrades?
Best upgrades
1. Axis to Sondek LP12 - Axis, Basik Plus, AT-OC5 to black LP12 Circus, Trampolin 1, Lingo 1, Japanese Akito, K18 Mk.1 with Mk.2 stylus replacement.
2. Ikemi to Sondek CD12
3. Klout aktiv AV5140s to mono-Klout tri-wired Akurate 242
4. Keel
5. tri-wired to quin-wired Akurate 242 (you just have to do this!).
6. CD12 to Klimax DS
7. Intek to pre/power amp (2nd hand Naim 62/140, ahem).
8. T.Kable (hear all of what your LP12 is actually extracting from the record).
9. AV5140s mono-Klout to 3 Klout aktiv AV5140s
10. Kan II (on K2 stands) to AV5140
11. Naim NAP 140 to Klout
12. Trampolin Mk.1 (a naturalness of timing I've not heard from anything else).
13. Japanese Akito to Ekos Mk.2 |
I have put back in the vintage foil caps in the midrange.
The sound is much smoother voices more real. Instruments do not have that jagged edge of poly caps. All poly caps I have tried are the biggest downgrade you can make to the sound.
I have put the order through.
I went with Duelund CAST midrange and 2 Duelund CAST tweeter caps.
I could not pull the trigger on the inductors. Although I am sure they are an excellent product I just do not know how much better they would be then current vintage inductors or Alpha or Mundorf Inductors. I know the Poly affects the sound but I do not know how much on the inductor it does. I think Poly is a skin effect thing and that is high freq. At Alpha or Mundorf prices I can try and see if they are better than vintage at Duelund prices you just have to know what the effects are going to be. |
Thanks for the help I did find the cap is a 100uf 100v Electolytic cap.
The resistor that was touching it appears to have got hot and melted the wire. It tests 46ohms and was rated 500. (power handling is 7 w)
Any recommendations on resistors??? or electrolytic caps? for the phono stage. |
Could really use some help guys.
I am really thrilled with the sound of foil caps but do not really understand what the design differnce is? Why do they sound different?
Poly caps have plates and the electricity jumps from one side to the other through the dielectric. Does the signal in the foil cap do the same?
An Inductor is a continous winding of copper that blocks high freq by the skin effect? Therefore is the quality of everyone's inductors closer than caps? To me the difference in caps is HUGE. Is it the same for inductors? or is Alpha Core's inductors, Mundorf's Inductors, Duelund's inductors very different and in what way? and why?
Is the coating on the copper wire the reason?
Since my order was made before the price increase Duelund is allowing me to add to that order to complete my crossover. But this is a one shot deal meaning whatever I order that is it and any new orders are at the new price.
So Duelund's raised there prices a lot. So this is a one shot deal for me and has to be done on Monday.
So any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
I am almost certain to get all that is needed and am going to try the CAST tweeter caps and CAST inductor and VSF midrange all x two.
This means errors are 2x as costly if they do not improve sound. No ordering one part at a time and seeing. One big $ guess on Monday. Excited but somewhat nervous and really trying to understand what does matter. Any help would be appreciated. |
One thing is the thread will be coming to an end soon as once this order is filled I am stuck good or bad. |
Final thoughts before ordering.
I have got back and forth to listening to Linn speakers same source and Linn with the Lp12. Klipsch with tubes and SS and digital and analog. Not sure why but on vintage my turntable does NOT sound very good at all. Likely poor phono stage.
I keep thinking I am going to wake up and realize what was I thinking. But time and time again the the foil caps vintage tube amp and the Klipsch sound better.
Even the much smaller amound of distortion through tube amps does not upset like SS distortion.
The Klipsch with vintage foil and Duelund VSF's sound so much more like being there.
Foil caps make the sound of real instruments and poly caps make the beat of the instruments but the mind says this is not real.
The distortion in foil caps does not bother one as much as poly distortion kind of like SS vs. tube distortion?
When listening to foil caps and 70% is sounding right (like real instruments) you listen to that and discount the 30%. With poly's you notice the distortion more and I think it is there is nowhere to hide in the music that sounds bang on. So the mind becomes fatigued. I can't listen to poly for long and have to turn it down or off.
My expectation on this is that likely the Duelund Aluminum VSF's (which I am not getting) still sound very real and likely beat any poly cap. The reason I say this is I think the vintage is aluminum and it sounds better in the midrange than Mundorf Supreme.
I had come down to three choices.
1. Duelund VSF's in the tweeters and vintage in the midrange. The Mundorf's were close to $120 delivered. So in my mind the used vintage foil in oil caps are a steal! They are worth more than Mundorf Supreme's except the being already old part. The vintage tweeter caps are just to noisy.
2. Duelund VSF in the mid's and tweeters. (this fixes all worn parts)
3. Duelund VSF and CAST (one each in the tweeter)
Duelund CAST inductor's as well. This one is some big $ and inductors don't wear like caps so if they do not sound better $1k of inductors is a lot of money to me! |
Inductor help
I am checking the Klipsch inductors and they use a wax paper wrapped inductor for the tweeter that is air core (I guess) Would this not really be very similiar to the Duelund wax paper inductor.
What could be the differnce? Higher guage better wire likely. |
I did check on the much cheaper Mundorf copper foil air core but they use poly to coat the wire?
Would this not cause the same problems as it does with caps? and maybe the vintage might be better???
Can't afford to find that out.
The vintage use on the tweeter circuit air core what looks to be waxed paper wrapped and is likely the same as the cheaper Duelund except the Duelund is 12 guage and no doubt the Klipsch is 16 or 18 guage wire???
I wish someone could tell me the difference? other then heavier guage wire? and would going from 18/16 to 12 make that much or any in the tweeter circuit?
I know Klipsch iron core woofer inductors are .29ohms (according to Bob Crites)
This put there resistance about as low as 12 guage air core. So a 12 guage air core waxed paper would be better because of being air core and but would a 12 gauge air core poly be better???? What would weigh in importance no poly or the iron core? or heavier guage wire?
Is Duelund really a vintage company with more modern tolerances? Not that this is bad thing?
Foil caps made better. (same but lower vibration)
Inductors same as old ones but being air core thicker wire
and in the case of CAST more solid.
What about their resistors?
All this means there was some serious $ in an original Klipsch crossover at today's prices. |
|
The Teflon caps are here.
I am going to listen to some vintage mid caps put the Mundorf's back in and then leave the Mundorf's and bypass with Russian Teflon.
So far favorite tweeter caps
1. Duelund/Duelund
2. Duelund/Supreme (maybe Silver in Oil after time the tilt to the high end calms down)
3. Supreme/Silver in Oil (only have one SIO)
4. Sonicaps
5. vintage (wayyyyy to much noise)
Fav's in the midrange (Duelund not here)
1. Vintage Foil caps that come with speakers (by a long shot)
2. Mundorf Supreme (dynamic but fake and rough sounding)
3. Sonicaps (not near dynamic enough
I have no idea what to expect of Teflon as a bypass. |
Thanks Undertow
I have had a chance to read your comments more now as we were out for the evening. You are right the tweeter inductor is in series. Even when talking to Chris at partsconnextion before he did not think parellal to be a very big deal. So I am getting nothing there.
Now back to the woofer inductor.
Is a Alpha Core at 12 guage air core better than the vintage Iron Core which is likely wrapped in waxed paper?
What weighs more heavy the thicker guage Alpha Air core with poly coating or the thinner guage with Iron and but no poly?
Undertow I expect the 12 gauge Alpha to be better than other smaller guage poly inductors but have you compared with waxed paper inductors? (even the vintage ones)
Excuse me for not sounding confident in the new products but these 30 year old vintage foil caps are kicking the crap out of one of the best Poly caps out there. I am concerned as to why? and it is not small differnence!
I am concerned with other brands of inductors. (other than Duelund) I sure do not want to spend anything on a part that is not better!
Is a 12 guage Alpha better than what I have? It has slightly lower resistance. But not much. .29ohms vintage and .23 for 12 guage Alpha.
Are inductors not sometimes 300ft long? Isn't 300ft of wire covered in poly a not good? I am sure the woofer circuit though is not as important as the tweeter being messed up by poly. (or in my case the mid range)
I am not going to try this one. If I get an inductor it will be Duelund or stick with the waxed paper vintage.
If the Mundorf Supreme is $120 for the mid range a speaker caps then the vintage should be worth $250 easy! I am running the system 24/7 on repeat to pile on the hours. |
Excuse me Undertow I meant to say of course the tweeter caps are in parallel.
Undertow have you done that test on inductors?
Waxed paper ones vs. poly covered ones?
or anyone?
Undertow a copy of Stereophile's article on the Fisher 500c. I am going to say likely most any vintage piece to different degrees. The vintage foil caps is SMOKING what Tempo Electric (Mundorf Supreme) says is the second best cap. I think all those dead guys with ears are great but most likely it is because they did not have poly caps then. Everyone used natural stuff because that is what they had.
That is why I think only the Duelund will be an improvement. My bigget fear is I would spend a lot (on an inductor) and not even notice it. (I hope I do!) My wife when she heard the Sonicap vs. vintage thought the Sonicaps were BROKEN! She could not believe the difference and had no idea which caps were in either speaker. Undertow I am not a vintage guy and my main stereo is as new as 2004 pre-amp and all what is known as "high end" and this is what I have found
1. Vintage int tube (smokes new big $ SS pre and amp)
2. Vintage speakers (smokes the '90's higher end new stuff)
3. Vintage foil cap (in the mid range) smokes high end poly caps.
Stereophile quote
"Forget everything you've read or imagined over the past 20 years—vintage gear does not necessarily sound rolled-off, soft and woolly, or fuzzy. This stuff is as far from windup Victrola sound as HDTV is from 1950s black-and-white TV. It is serious high-end audio, and offers a bouquet of endless multilayered soundscapes, pinpoint and holographic images, startling frequency response, and exceptional pace, rhythm, and drive. It's what we look for in our hobby, and it's been here all along. I've invested many years chasing the best cutting-edge gear our industry offers, yet I've never been more satisfied with music and audio since finding a home in yesteryear with all those dead guys with ears".
What is the reason?
I think it is modern plastic cheap manufacturing yes but does horrible things to the sound. |
Sorry Undertow
I did not see your post before mine.
Undertow it is a good case that any heavy guage good inductor will do as I understand the skin effect it is a high freq that would be effected and since a woofer is not that a good arguement can be made that the negative effect of poly would not matter.
If you have tried in the woofer than you are saying that the 12 gauge weighs more heavy than the negative effect of poly. Which I do believe you as that does make sense in the low freq.
I am going to wait to see what Chris says today and make the order. I do agree I would rather spend the $ on quality on the high freq cap as it is VERY noticeable there. |
The vintage inductor has what looks like waxed paper wrapped around the wires to stop vibration in the inductor.
Duelund does this same style but with air core. Duelund is all about getting the plastic out of the system. All the caps have no plastic. The inductors no plastic and I am sure the interconnects no plastic.
I am not going to spend the money to try it but would not at all be surprised to find that modern inductors do not sound as good. More bass due to lower resistance maybe but more natural sounds? I doubt it as they are wrapped in poly. The resistance difference from 12 guage Alpha and vintage is not that great.
Keep up with Mundorf's! The Mundorf's are wayyyyy out their league compared to vintage. The foil caps are MUCH faster smoother and sound way more real with much better timing. The Duelund's are just a modern version of the vintage and they are better. (in the tweeters anyway)
Undertow believe me this is not what I expected. I thought when the Mundorf's went in I was going to decide if they were good enough to not get Duelund. Never in my wildest esxpectation did I think they were not going to be as good as the vintage foil caps.
I am getting Duelund's just waiting for the call from partsconnextion. It is whether it is VSF or CAST that is the only choice.
Undertow it is plastic I am sure of it.
That is why Stereophile praised the 500c. That is a receiver for pete's sake, hardly the be all of any company's line. I think the plastic has more effect than anything. Can you not sense the disgust in the reviewers words when he was talking about vintage (receiver) from dead guys with ears being better than anything today at mega $. That is a huge stab at modern methods for sure. When you are a adverttising magazine and you say a comment like that about a company that is out of business (so they can not advertise) against your current companies you can bet he took heat for that. |
Running the Mundorf Supreme's 24/7 now for awhile.
At least 50+ hours now. |
I have the Russian Teflon and the Russian K40y-9 PIO. I really liked what the PIO did when they first went in. I thought they were teflon's (Russian caps you can't what they are) but they seemed to smooth things out. With the Teflon it does not sound as good.
In another cap review I hear they are considered one of the best Russian caps. Ahhh another guy who thinks all plastic caps sound like plastic! I was shocked to find a small by pass reduces the plastic sound of poly caps.
quote from someone else on these caps.
"I must thank “Bob B” and “Les Lemmars” for kindly loaning me these K40y caps. After the usual rocky burn-in ritual, this PIO cap settled into a confident, natural sounding device. There are some audiophiles who rank these PIO caps as the best of the Russian military caps, including the FT-3 and K72 teflon caps. I may agree with this sentiment when it comes to utter naturalness and ease of presentation as well as the lack of a subtle “plastic” sound, which of course all plastic (film) caps have". |
I have become intrigued with the Russian PIO. I took back out the Teflon just leaving in the Russian PIO.
I need to put some hours on these but first impression is good. They reduce the nasty plastic sound of the Mundorf Supreme.
For the first time since the Mundorf's went in I do not feel the need to burn in while not in the room or the desire to pull them out. |
Thanks Dave
What is the voltage of the PIO? Can they be used in electronics to replace vintage caps?
You are right on the Teflons being not that good right out of the box. I have heard some crazy hours like 400 for Teflons? That is almost a month at 24/7! Wow!
You would want to know they are good at the end of that. |
Did some more testing and I do not mean to upset anyone here who owns either Bennic, Sonicap, or Mundorf but all plastic caps I have heard degrade the sound in a big way and it is NOT hard to tell. In the horns you hear everything. (good or bad) I am being critical of even my own gear wondering what the heck was I thinking!
Biggest surprises
Duelund in the tweeter, how good the vintage STILL is in the midrange, Russian PIO as bypass can help and these may be very good caps maybe better than vintage if they were big enough.
Biggest disapointments
Linn and B&W and many big name speaker companies use just cheap caps. I guess that is why I have had a foil cap speaker for 30 years. Unacceptable at the prices they charge! Mundorf SIO and all plastic caps. I guess good if you want to make your system sound more like plastic.
I got one plastic cap to get rid of in the amp with I hope Russian PIO and then all done.
So far favorite tweeter caps
1. Duelund/Duelund
2. Duelund/Supreme (not SIO I do not see them as even better than Supreme)
3. Supreme/Silver in Oil (only have one SIO)
4. Sonicaps
5. vintage (wayyyyy to much noise)
6. Bennic (in the Linn)
Fav's in the midrange (Duelund not here to compare)
1. Vintage Foil caps that come with speakers (by a long shot!)
2. Mundorf Supreme (with the Russian PIO bypass caps)
3. Mundorf Supreme (dynamic but fake and rough sounding)
4. Supreme 10uf with SIO and Russian PIO (again do not care for SIO at all)
5. Sonicaps (not near dynamic enough)
6. Bennic (in the Linn speakers awful) |
The CAST caps are not here yet but will be interesting.
JohnK had done extensive work on vintage Klipsch speakers. He had tried working on the cabinets to dampen them down. I feel the resonance is caused by the foil cap and maybe not the cabinet. At least I hope it is as I know the caps resonate.
Tony Gee talked about how the Duelund's made everything sound more real. That would not be the exact words I would use. I find the Duelund sounds similiar to the vintage with a MASSIVE reduction in resonance. My words would be (after living with foil caps for 25+ years) is that plastic caps are much less real and plasticize the sound. Where the Duelund's shine is they are wayyyyy out of the league of vintage in noise reduction.
Tony and Tempo talk about things sounding more real (with Duelund) I believe real is what was there (always in foil caps) and the plastic caps changed everything to plastic sounding and we have become used to that.
The weakness of the vintage Klipsch is the resonance and I think it is in the vintage cap not the box. The only thing I can go on this is the HUGE reduction in resonance that came from the Duelund in the tweeter.
I have not been as excited about an Audio product in a long time as I am about these CAST caps coming. Very high hopes. I am glad they were designed for horns. |
I am looking at that very idea of speaker cable. I am using 12 guage Linn speaker wire. 25 ft x 2. (which I need nowhere near as much) I am curious as to how much difference plastic free speaker wire will make? Easier to replace worn out caps than almost new speaker wire. (in the mind anyway)
Looking at homemade speaker wire not sure why Duelund costs so much? I just can't make my own caps.
Very pricey wire though! |
Hmmm that's interesting. Face I am not surprised that the Clarity is better than the Sonicaps. Dynamics on the Sonicaps is very weak.
Face any other caps to compare too? Would be interesting compared to Mundorf? As I understand they are much more costly than Sonicaps? Now you and Undertow are very smitten with these caps.
I of course cannot comment as of course I have never heard them. I will have to wait for a Tony Gee or Tempo review as I have blown my load!
I have put one of the Russian .22uf PIO with the vintage as a bypass cap and can say so far I do NOT like that combo. |
Anyone heard the buzz about Audio Note speakers? I had never heard of them. (30 years with one speaker will do that)
I keep hearing how they sound better than B&W etc for the $. I did check out what they are made of and it is interesting to see that as you move up there line they talk about the upgraded parts. They use at some point foil capacitors and Alnico magnet woofers etc. It is nice to hear companies talking about the quality of components. I read in Stereophile the other day and none of the speaker companies really talked about there crossovers? Like it did not mean everything.
Has anyone ever heard Audio Note? I may check them out for the livingroom. (Klipsch will NEVER get there or I will be divorced) |
Undertow I did see that price after putting in the post. Not cheap but I do keep hearing how there speakers are better than most for the $. Yes I have heard of the capacitors. I only tried Duelund as they seem to be higher rated than Audio Note. I am sure there foil caps are good though but they do have 10% tolerances which Duelund is 1 or 2% and I do not believe they make to order? I did not find anyone to go crazy over Audio Note caps and they are not cheap? I think Audio Note is the same as Jenssen??? Just rebranded??
I am going to put in an all Mundorf crossover today and put back on the SS. Linn Klout amp and LP12. I think it only fair to use modern amp with modern style (poly cap)
I just want to make sure the foil is not just a good match to vintage tube gear. |
I put back in the Mundorf caps in the midrange. What is noticable is the less noise. I remember reading McIntosh quoting higher signal to noise ratio out of there amps using poly caps. This is easy to understand the only thing that would concern me is yes the S/N ratio is higher but what happens to the signal? Is it kind of a CD thing where the noise is lowered but the signal is compromised and the "number" looks better on paper.
I do appreciate the lower Mundorf noise floor. (much lower than vintage) It does improve bass as it reduces noise. PWK had once said there is noise even in a hall to record. I often wonder if that is some of the fake sound to poly caps are they just too quiet? (but Duelund does not sound fake and is very very quiet) Is the sound of poly's unaturally quiet? The friend who liked the all vintage foil caps crossover at first likely thought the reverb sounded like what his mind was expecting things to sound. When you hear a band live it is always a noise filled affair with tons of reverb.
So I guess in a way caps would suit the type of music you listen to and what you want for sound. That is why there is vintage only guys and I suppose they like a "real" sound and lots of reverb.
If one mostly listened to classical you for sure would not want lots of rock concert reverb.
What started this thread was the speakers I always loved I was not liking anymore. Was it me? (getting into my 40's) and not wanting to hear a rock concert all the time. Listening to different music with a different desire. Or were the caps worn out? The tweeter caps for sure produced massive noise!
When the thread first started I prefered the Linn (non horn) sound. The soundstage was bigger and set back farther and was not coming at you like horn speakers.
Now with the tweeter caps and vintage tube the favorite went back to the horns. The Linn's sound very harsh and have almost no upside.
I have now put in an all Mundorf crossover. I will also put in a analog front end with SS later. |
Great work Mike.
I guess the Clarity Cap is very, very good. How does there price compare to Mundorf range? One thing I do find strange is Tony's assesment of Mundorf range and Tempo's? Tempo likes that Supreme better than SIO and Tony places each more expensive Mundorf higher. I have heard many not like Silver/Gold? I do see Tony does not like all foil caps and really just the Duelund's stand out to him.
My biggest concern is that the CAST is better than the already excellent VSF. A nightmare to me would be that the CAST is not as good at more money. Tempo doesn't like SIO more at more money. So $ do not always equal better.
I am running an all Mundorf crossover now with one tweeter SIO the rest Supreme. I have tried on just tubes so far but will try with SS. My LP12 was my main listening and CD just as back-up.
The Mundorf is very good compared to the Bennic in the Linn. All those cheap crossover parts just sound cheap! I am trying to compare Mundorf to just Bennic. If I compare to Duelund/vintage I get frustrated. |
Another eval of "A Day in the Life" Beatles. I use that because I am sure many people have there music to compare.
The song on vintage tube all Mundorf. (one Supreme one SIO tweeter cap)
Aggressive sounding
The song with Duelund/vintage is about Ringo peacefully in his own space with the orchestra in the background center. You can visualize him all by himself. There is a spot in the end where John is made to float and the orchestra is brought forward. I only knew this after Duelund/vintage.
With the Mundorf the sound is much more aggressive. Ringo is not in his own space and is not drumming in peaceful isolation. The orchestra is overbearing. John does not float. It is not the same soft beautiful subtle song with the same effects.
I always wanted to know what some of the differences were in caps. I know rated 10, 11 or 6 or whatever and Tony touches on it but what does it mean? I know it is easy to say what is wrong with say Bennic (noisy and very harsh)(or in my case Sonicaps lack of dynamics) but what is the difference at the higher level?
This is a very interesting note.
I have praised up the vintage Fisher no end on foil caps and beat up the SS Linn Klout. On the foil caps the Linn Klout sounds awful very mid range shouty. On the Mundorf's now that I have put the Linn Klout back in it at least sounds as good as the tube amp and if not better!!???
So for sure there is something about foil caps and vintage tubes and horns. Likely all voiced together at the same time from the same era.
The Linn Klout on digital sounds Ok on the Mundorf's not as good as vintage tube on foil but certainly not worse than the vintage and I think better.
Somewhat faster and better timing. But neither make "real" instruments in my mind on plastic caps.
I am going to hook back up the Lp12 which will be nice as most of my music is on vinyl and the phono section on the vintage (to me) was awful! |
Undertow
I hope and pray you are wrong. (no offense) I hope the CAST is better than the VSF in the crossover. I am only going on the hunch that the CAST is the same but has better damping properties. (what they have been saying) I have talked to Duelund and Burt Doppenberg. They both said the CAST was better but you are right also meaning deminishing rates of return. Better I can live with and say whether or not it is worth the $. Worse would not be good!
I understand the CAST to be much quieter but maybe only really noticeable on horn type speakers. The CAST were designed for horns as horn and noise not being good. Horns are great to reveal everything but that is a double edge sword. |
Undertow we for sure do not feel the same of importantance of the the crossover caps. Limited freq response? I am am confused the mids and highs are run by the mid and tweeter cap. Other than the inductor for the woofer all freq are covered by crossover caps?
As for the differnce from foil Duelund to Mundorf not being in a critical area? It is the biggest difference from any component I have ever heard.
As for the CAST being better maybe not, but the difference from Duelund to Mundorf on tubes is MASSIVE! |
