Just a few hours and still trying to get a handle on the change. The first Duelund was a revalation. I am not hearing anything new and different with 2. Except maybe hands on the violin moving the strings. Somewhat higher noise floor and somewhat more dynamic but the sound is tilted upward but not as high as SIO/Duelund. I am not sure why but I enjoy the Duelund/Supreme combo better than Duelund/Duelund but a little quieter and easier to focus on and more natural. (but this may change as it is close and break in could come into effect)
I am very curious as to what the effect to the mid cap change is going to be? Eleanor Rigby on the vintage caps is almost not the same song! It is all cello (and sloppy cello) and you can almost not even hear the violin. You can not hear the layers from front to back or ANY interaction from the orchestra.
On the Duelund's there is a violin near Paul and 2 or 3 behind him and cello's farther back. On vintage there is no front to back of soundstage no primier violinist and back up ones.
The difference is astonishing from vintage to Duelund's.
There is no going back now. One can not go from knowing all what was happening in the song to hardly even hearing some instruements.
Help (Beatles) There is a playful bass line that does not even show up on the vintage caps!
So far it is
1. Duelund/Supreme
2. Duelund/Duelund
3. Supreme/SIO
4. SIO/Duelund
5. vintage
6. Supreme/Sonicap
7. Sonicap/Sonicap
5-7 could be changed for different reasons. But none of those combo's is near the top 4.
I will be ordering midrange caps and maybe inductors Friday or Monday. I have no idea what will work but will likely stick with some combo of Supreme/Duelund. I am just not sure whether to get inductors fisrt or caps? |
Stormen thanks for the post. Some people have got mad with me for not yet going to full break in. But the results are so astonishing with the Duelund it is amazing.
I wish you would not have told me about the CAST's being even better. I can not imagine and yes am using the VSF's. (just kidding)
I do have to get new inductors and was not even considering Duelund. Are they that good?
I was also trying to get some debate on why they are so good? So real and natural sounding, I suspect the no plastic. I read something about all drivers being in phase as well. (Duelund) |
Rauliruegas
Yes I agree that we each have our own priorities with sound as there would only be one cap, one source, one amp, one speaker and all would agree that they were the best.
Yes I am looking for a cap that is fun. (to me of course)
The vintage caps are very coloured (worn out now) and yes I rank them better than the non defective but boring sounding Sonicaps. That has to do with my perception of their lack of dynamics.
I do know the vintage caps are "colored" but do not hear that with the Duelund's. I would say more like Tony Gee's "super natural" makes instruments sound like the real thing. If that is colored I want a violin to sound like a violin.
What I do not like about the Sonicaps is lack of energy not SPF. I do not dislike Sonicaps they are cheap and are not offensive but not in the league of the better caps (IMHO) in what I am looking for and that is that "live" feel that horns can do.
"A child with new toy".
I did say that I had these speakers for almost 30 years and loved them. I know the caps are going bad and after putting in the Sonicaps I was so disapointed I put them up for sale. When the guy came to buy them he had the old tube amp. I knew there was still problems but enjoyed listening to them again on the tube amp with vintage caps.
Then I got the new caps and it is beyond my wildest expectations. I almost do not listen to my main system. So yes I am like a kid who has his favourite "old" toy back and better than ever!
The two different caps.
I did say I was very early with the second Duelund. What those people did say is even the best caps will leave their sonic signature. You will hear the "cap" as opposed to the music. That does make sense to me. I found the Deulund/Supreme to not leave any signature on the music.
I am still eval'ing two Duelund's. There is another thing even if I like two Duelund's better (which I am not sure) I have to weigh there extreme cost against other improvements. I am now considering Duelund's for inductors.
Raul I do not think two caps introduce "more" distortion. I found the Duelund/Supreme tow work VERY well togther and I could hear stuff in the music I had never heard and could pick out instruments I did not know even there. I can not see that as distortion.
Raul I will agree that the only way to eval this is to di it one's own self. (everyone's ears different) I did not know I was going to like Duelund so much. I only bought them on site recommendation. I thought well why not. |
Dgarretson
The original post did say it was a log from start to finish for others to read in the future. So they could know or have an idea of what to expect. The hours are piling on the caps and yes they do become smoother but have not had one cap move up or down in my fav's list. I have not had one cap become more dynamic yet either, smoother yes.
If I did not do one thing more than replace the tweeter caps I know like the Klipsch much more than my other speakers. (Linn) So for a cost of $400 the Klipsch now sound very good. I would have to compare to at least 10k speakers if not more in the speakers I have heard. (except maybe JohnK horns as I have not heard them)
I do think Steen Duelund fit the old mold. (of being a tinker)
Arthur Salvatore on his web site said he would like to hear a all out set of Khorns. (he STILL has the Khorns as one of the best speakers ever) |
Rauliruegas
I once thought I wanted to hear what was the exact recording. I owned a Lp12 for almost 10 years. It was the first source I loved. (then the sound started to go bad)
So I started changing everything. (I found out later/now it was the caps in the Klipsch)
In the process of the change I bought another turntable. (which I will not mention to avoid conflict) I heard so much good on the net about it. To me it killed the music. I loved the Lp12 for years within 3 weeks I did not even listen too (other turntable) I actually disconnected it and put it up for sale. I started listening to CD's. I ended up with another Lp12.
Whatever I buy "has" to make me want to listen more. With the Sonicaps I lost interest in the Klipsch started listing to my Linn speakers. I could hear that the Sonicaps were "more correct" than the vintage caps but lacked the "live" feel. It was the dynamics they lacked not a smooth sound.
For almost 30 years I have owned the Klipsch. Like JohnK says it is only recently that horns have come back. At my Linn dealer they used to chuckle when I told them I had Klipsch. (vintage horns) Yet everytime I heard one of there high powered amp systems I never felt the music the same way.
So I have been through the Klipsch was great era to Klipschorns were a joke era and now back to new and old horns are thought good again. Even my Linn dealer who used to kind of laugh at me about them now somehow thinks horns are Ok almost a respect!
I do think horns are more sensitive to source or crossover caps because of the eff. also I may spend a pile on caps but I do not need some high powered amp or two or three. |
Stormen is it the same level of improvement as with the caps and the same kind of improvement? I find the caps to be so much more "real" sounding then other caps.
Piling on the hours now. (leaving on when away)
The best choice is now tough and will take hours to figure out. It is either Duelund/Duelund or Duelund/Supreme.
It may come down to Duelund/Duelund being slightly better but not worth the extra $. For sure going to one Duelund was a revalation going to two in the tweeters is not the jump of the first. |
Hi Raul
I think the results are similiar as Tempoelectric.
Both did not think the expensive v-cap that great. Tempo put the v-cap in Tier "E".
Tempo also put the Sonicaps in Tier "D" above the much more expensive oimp v-cap.
Tempo also said it was close to whether the Mundorf SIO was going down to Tier "C" so that would put it only one Tier above Sonicap. (at much greater cost than Sonicap)
So if you compare Sonicap to some of the Solens that Tempo wondered how a cap could sound that bad it is very good for the $.
I am going to put pics on of all the caps (if I can) so people who have not seen the size difference can understand what I am talking about. I have offended some with not waiting till 200 hours. (some are close to 50 now)
It is the dynamics I am talking about not smoothness. In all honesty not one cap is more dynamic after any hours so far. Yes smoother more open but not more dynamic. (not that I can tell) |
Stormen
There is no resistors in the "AA" Klipsch network.
There is one large inductor and one small one. Can you describe the changes in inductors. Many people talk about caps but not so much talk on inductors. Is that because old ones do not wear out like caps? With changing caps you can go better and they wear improvement compounds to a huge difference. With inductors (I understand) it would be just the qualitive improvement? |
Yes I mean two caps in parallel to total 13uf yes stacked together. |
I put the Sonicaps back in to complete the breakin on them as I have disapointed some people with the test.
I did some measurements for some
Sonicap radius 8mm x31mm long
Supreme radius 13mm x50mm long
SIO radius 20mm x53mm long
So volume of caps are pie x radius2
Sonicaps volume 6230 cubic milimeters
Supreme volume 26533 cubic milimeters
SIO volume 66568 cubic milimeters
My problem has been not the poor sound of the Sonicaps or lack of detail but lack of dynamics.
Upon having them back in I first thought I might have been too critical. They are a BIG step down from my fav's Duelund/Supreme. I may have to move them up from last though.
I would say they are realitively smooth but flat in dynamics. The Supreme's are smoother but more importantly more dynamic. If it was my Linn speakers I may consider them but would likely go with Supreme's. |
Thanks Undertow
I was starting to wonder if I had been to harsh on the Sonicaps. They at 40+ hours now.
I still find them very flat. They are not offensive just not that great compared to the others.
I notice their faults even more now after hearing the Duelund/Supreme. At 40 hours they seem even farther behind.
I can say some might find them better than the vintage (worn out) caps if they prefer their "more correct" sound and do not mind their lack of dynamics.
I still find them below the old vintage caps (to me) and for sure the vintage caps were better before worn out.
When I did this with the caps I got what Tony Gee called the start of high end caps at a bargain price. The Sonicaps may be that, I'll take his word but they are NOT in the league of the better caps. (Duelund and the 2 Mundorf's)
From what I understand one can do much worse though some of the expensive caps seem to be rated no better.
I have not tried Cardas or will I at this point. |
Stormen
Thanks
You have given me something to think about. (inductors) I am ordering the midrange caps Monday and will see how that goes.
That is quite a read on Steen Duelund. Going to take awhile to digest this. |
Hmmmm interesting Undertow? You are waiting for resistors or caps? This is the first time I have even heard they were coming.
My e-mail Wednesday said they were shipped Monday and we should see them Wednesday or Thursday. No word. I am mostly concerned about how they sound not how fast they get here as I will have them for 20+ years. (I hope) |
Trying to put a number value on the cap difference.
I have never been a digital fan. All the tests so far are done on CD because I do not want to log hours on my cartridge. The two CD players I am using is a NAD (20 year old one) and a Linn Karik. (which I never thought was that great compared to vinyl)
Doing just the tweeter caps Duelund/Supreme about $400 both speakers. ($30 for Sonicaps) If it came down to a choice (of money on CD player or caps) the cap difference from Sonicap to Duelund/Supreme is at least 5x the difference from the two CD players. That is just doing the tweeter caps. I can not imagine what it will be when all is done!
It is just HUGE! In fact when the Duelund/Supreme was in it is the 1st time I have ever enjoyed digital. I only have the player for my wife and back ground music.
Money on caps (great caps) also is better money spent in the fact that all sources will be better.
I would like to hear some opinions on this but I think money on caps may be better money than on speaker wire, interconnects or anything I can think of??? |
After buying the Sonicaps a light went off in my head that it is the caps that made the Klipsch special, I always thought it was the horns.
Steen Duelund
"A passive network needs spacing, so use bottom and backside of the loudspeaker box for it — the bigger the better. Also do not expect this important part to be cheap. I personally use more money on the dividing network than on the rest of the loudspeaker". |
My Linn speakers look very nice (like many other brands) but no doubt use cheap caps.
Steen Duelund (I am impressed with dedication to the hobby a throwback to the past)
"That is really what you get even from the expensive part of the market. No real innovations, none new ways, as if normal methods are the best - but designs and finish are very impressive. Sadly this is for the eyes not for the ears".
"It seems difficult to build loudspeakers, which are more than 2-way, if you search the market. What has been gained, by these simple 2-ways constructions concerning recreation of a convincingly holographic picture of sound is lost, when more ways are chosen. Just consider how much energy has been put into the two way systems, to make them full range. None of them reaches the goal".
"In theory more ways should lead to better results, but practise has shown it otherwise. Normal filters and components are insufficient".
JohnK will like this quote. (Steen seems to be a horn guy)
"With a well-constructed horn and a single loudspeaker, much can be achieved concerning experience, but full range and relaxing to listen to, it will never be. But they can be very spellbinding".
I commonly hear that freq cutoffs should be abrubt from one driver to the other and Steen feels exact opposite.
"In the literature youÂ’ll find "the perfect filter" described as having linear response until a sudden abrupt cut-off. That is probably correct concerning telecommunication but it canÂ’t be more wrong with loudspeakers. There the cut-off must happen in a very gentle manner, so let us see, how this can be achieved".
Steen on caps (I feel somewhat vindicated now saying that the older caps were better. The Klipsch vintage caps when newer would kick the crap out of the cheaper plastic caps. The vintage caps simply no plastic and wayyyyy bigger. That being said the Duelund with no plastic is better than the vintage ever were. Anyone ever try the old Mica caps?)
I also feel somewhat vindicated about comments about the Sonicaps being just too small to do the job.
"From the great variety of types - stick to stack foils or variations on that theme if you can find them without plastics. The good old Micas works wonderfully well but they are far too expensive for greater values. Go for older types following the simple rule that bigger is better. A good sounding construction will be introduced from Jensen Capacitor in the near future". (An artificial stack foil, which regrettably only can be manufactured by hand for now.)
Interesting on sound our brain uses 4 senses? Wow did not know that?
"The brain in reality uses four of its senses by an acoustical event: hearing, sight, somatic tough for lower frequencies and even the sense of smell simultaneously.
Reproduction of only sound in a room creates problems for the brains treatment of sound — missing two stimuli, as I’ll rule out the smell".
Steen on loudspeaker cost relative to system.
"The price of the loudspeaker should mirror the price of the rest of your gear as almost equal. The reason is simple — the more quality gained from the electronic parts the more handwork must be invested in the mechanic/acoustical unit. A good loudspeaker has no easy way despite the manufacturer’s advertising of "The simpler- the better". It only for them is better and of course easier and cheaper".
That one is interesting for me as my Klipsch with cheap CD player (vintage Fisher tube amp) outperforms the expensive Linn gear with the cheaper (slightly) Linn speakers. Linn has always said source is the most important and Steen takes issue with that, saying 50% of the system cost should be in the speakers and I tend (even as a Linn fan) agree with Steen. |
Dear Raul
I am not buying any more Sonicaps. I do just listen to one speaker so adjusting the volume is not a problem.
I am at about 40-45 hours on the Sonicaps and my opinion is now much lower on them. I find that in Audio you notice the going down even much more than the going up.
I just put them back in to make sure I was not being to critical.
I do want to sell the Sonicaps would you like them? Half of the ones I have are brand new.
I will likely not hit the hours on the Sonicap needed to be fully broke in. They are wayyyyy out of the league of the other caps. (and the originals) |
JohnK
I would have agreed on the tweeters until the Duelund's went in.
Bob Crites says he has tested thousands of caps this age and all were out of spec. I have not tested mine but did hear them go bad a couple of years ago.
I am not focusing on one aspect just trying to bring it back to at least OEM. According to Steen Duleund 50% of the cost of the speaker should be in the dividing network. Well Khorns cost almost $4k in 1980. So in theory $2k of the retail should be in the crossover network. (1980 dollars)
I can assure you John that fronting even a vintage Klipsch tweeter with 2 $7 caps is crazy! Fronting the speakers with two $30 is much better and a $30 Mundorf and a $140 Duelund is a even bigger jump.
I am treating the system as a system that is why I made sure the new caps had to be at least as good as old ones. I am not trying to create a weak link with cheap caps. |
I forgot to put volume size of the vintage caps and Duelund
Vintage is
53mm length 32 width 50mm high (at least 40mm before rounding)
for a total volume of 84,800mm (somewhat less as cans are rounded)
They are between 64,000cubic mm and 84,800 cubic mm say 75,000. (app)
The Duelund's are
90mm long 45mm wide 9mm high
36,450 cubic mm. |
Thanks Stormen I will check that out as well.
The last one I could only understand his writing the math I do not have a clue!
I did find interesting his 50% of the system speakers because he thinks they are the weak link and within the speaker 50% in the dividing network. So if one had a 10k system (which is not hard today at all!) a full $2500 should be in the speaker crossover!
To me that sounds like a lot of dough in the crossover. I bet most are nowhere near that. But like Steen says people like shining cabinets with fantastic finish on them. You don't see crossovers you only hear them.
I had a buddy just e-mail today who had his phono stage sent back to Germany to install Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil and you would think he had gone to heaven! He had Supreme's. So caps are huge.
JohnK and I are in complete agreement about not going overboard in one area of a system. What we are off a little on is how much you have to spend to do it. I only started out to be as good as (worn out) OEM or better and that Duelund/Supreme is the point where I am not missing the old caps in anyway. |
JohnK I do think Steen thinks a speaker should be designed as a whole as well. I do think by his writing's that he feels most speaker manufacture's are "under" spending on caps and over spending on finish so that it "looks" better. Steen is clearly on the audiophile side and likely could care less what the speaker looks like. (I also know most manufactures af course care about looks-sales)
Johnk my results of course are based on a fairly expensive speaker. The internals of a lascala and Khorn are of course the same and the Khorn from the era was 4k (in 1980 dollars) So I feel (and can hear) using a $7 cap (likely $2 in 1980 dollars) is crazy on the cheap side one a 4k speaker! Now I do agree maybe the second Duelund sounds better but it was not a shocking difference the first was, so maybe I am reaching the point of putting more in is dimishing return and money could be better spent elsewhere. But the first Duelund in the tweeter was a bigger jump than from my pre-amp that was 1.5k to 4k. (same company) I had to do that one 6 or 7x before I could hear exactly what the difference was. The Duelund was pick my jaw up from the floor in 15 seconds. (and one Duelund was only $130x 2 for each speaker)
JohnK I do agree with you just maybe at a different point as to what is crazy. Would Duelund's 4k caps each be worth it??? No way not to me! I could improve a lot of stuff a long ways before I would ever spend that kind of money. (even if I had it)
I think why Stormen and I feel the improvement in the crossover may be better than any other area is because it might be the weakest area. Let's say someone has a 5k source 5k pre-amp 5k amp then it all runs through a $7 cap! To me that is crazy as ALL the sound goes through those devices! They are then the weak link. The trick is finding where that balance point is? I found "shocking" improvements all the way to 1 Duelund/Supreme after that it was like the pre-amp. It would take me a few listens to tell if it is better and how much. |
Undertow I am not saying Sonicap is bad at all! This is some stiff competition! Duelund is argueably the best on the planet and Mundorf Supreme is used in B&W top speaker (and the top audiophile cap for volume) and Mundorf Silver in Oil is on everyone's favourite list. Even the vintage are oil filled caps and are part of the reason we see oil caps coming back today! There are a lot of people who search out (and pay big bucks for vintage oil caps) and even Steen Duelund is a fan of some vintage caps. |
Just ordered another Duelund cap for the shoot out with Jensen.
I also ordered Duelund Silver Foil wire for the the hook up.
I do expect the Duelund to win but will see. More natural midrange than Jensen |
Thanks Undertow
Where I am having a tough time is dividing up the 13uf for the midrange neither Mundorf of Duelund makes a 13uf so it has to be divided. Duelund does make a 3uf and both make a 10uf. I feel Duelund is the sound I like but Supreme does very little to mess it up and is very inexpensive. This is a tough one. Thought about 3uf Duelund and 10uf Supreme but is that enough Duelund. Any other combo does not work out to 13 uf. Duelund does make both but again this is costly! I have thought about 6.8 Duelund and 6.0 Mundorf. I do not know how I can change this cheaply??? if wrong? |
I have went through all the combo's again and still come back to same pairing. Duelund/Supreme. I find it hard to understand how one Duelund makes things so great but the second does not improve things at all.
What Tempo has said to me rings so true is mixing caps. This NEVER dawned on me. I thought it only to be a cost thing.
The Duelund brings things to "life" and the Supreme makes it smooth full and musical.
Duelund/Duelund tilts the sound like SIO/Supreme.
The only thing I may change it the order.
Duelund/Supreme
maybe to
Supreme/SIO
Duelund/Duelund (unless break in calms things down) |
Undertow I will post Chris's response from partsconnextion.
CAPs in parallel sound even better......they reduce the ESL and ESR of the
combo.
Sincerely,
Chris Johnson, President |
Thanks Undertow
Yes I too think the midrange even more critical than tweeter. In the tweeter of course the caps are in series and the midrange would be in parallel.
I may go next to the inductor.
You find that to make that much difference? I was looking at an Alpha Core 12 guage you mentioned a Mundorf 12 guage or maybe a Duelund.
I am confused with the Supreme on the woofer? We have a 2.5mghz inductor and no cap on the woofer?
Are you saying a better inductor made the highs sound better and Alpha core was better than original? |
I am just rebuilding to original specs and the "AA" network uses a 2.5mz inductor and 13uf (cap) on the midrange and 2 (2uf caps) on the tweeter. There is also one more small inductor as well. That's it there is no more parts than that.
(well the autoformer) |
I have e-mailed partsconnextion to find out about caps in parallel to see if that works?
Also on the Alpha core inductor. They are almost $70 which is not bad compared to $300 (I think) for Duelund. Mundorf does sell inductors but from another company. I never hear people talk about the brands as inductors making a difference just whether air core/iron core etc. |
Did talk to partconnextion and they said parallel caps are better than series. Now just to pick (guess) at cost effective combo. |
I just talked to Chris on the phone and he thought the Duelund should be bigger and bypassed with a smaller amound Mundorf. They really recomend using two caps to stop the Sonic signature. He of course could not comment on the Duelund/Supreme in this case.
Undertow you are right though getting the midrange is even more important. I am still thinking 3uf Duelund and 10uf Mundorf.
I think I might put in the Sonicap while I guess which is the best combo for mids. I have a 13uf sonicap already here.
Now no vintage caps left in circuit. |
Undertow
I would have considered Audio Note if I had some reviews on them from others. Both Tempo and Tony Gee just had not reviewed them. They may be great. (built by Jensen as well like Duelund I believe)
I had to stick to a few brands for financial reasons.
One thing I did notice that was not much talk about was dynamics. When I put the Sonicap in the midrange again I had thoughts of is this all worth it. They tend to sound not defective but not exciting. Only AFTER I had bought the caps did I read stuff like from Steen that the bigger the cap the better. (all things equal) Now I know why even caps that don't sound bad (like the Sonicap) if they were only two or three times bigger they would be more dynamic. Of course that would end the Sonicap cheap price/performance ratio.
This is something for all to consider when replacing caps make sure you get as big (dynamic) cap as before. It is not something that stands out and yells at you (like a bright cap) or a cap that tilts the sound one way or another. You will notice that the music is just not as interesting. The Sonicaps to me are nuetral so the flaws only become apparent on direct comparison.
JohnK I know you think crazy money on caps is not proper spending but I do know the fastest way to kill a speaker is with cheap caps. JohnK if 50% of the speaker on the dividing network is too much what do you think is the proper balance? Of course I understand if you could get the cap that sounded best for $1 that would be the way to go. But I do not believe you can and more expensive caps are often bigger and have more reserves.
JohnK I am curious where you think is the proper point of spending in this case? Which caps and what kind of $? |
The size of the mid caps
Vintage is (can type rounded edges)
95mm long x 52mm wide x 32mm high
Total mm3 158,080 (somewhat less for rounded corners)
Sonicap
14mm radius x 50mm long so
30,772 cubic mm
Supreme (from website as I do not have the caps)
10uf (supreme caps)
18mm radius x 106mm long
107,840 cubic mm
3.3uf cap
15mm raius x 56mm long
39,564 cubic mm
For a total of 147,404mm3
So a Supreme is roughly 5x as big as a Sonicap and likely slightly bigger than the different style vintage cap. (rounded corners taken off)
So is it a wonder that Supreme's sound more dynamic??? I know some say you can not use that but both Mundorf Supreme's and Sonicaps are similiar style and you pay for what you get.
To me they sound similiar but much more dynamic. (the Supreme's)
To people who read this in the future if you go to small on your caps you get this feeling the cap sounds like a filter. |
Trying to assess the Sonicaps in the midrange and they are massively undersized! Wayyyyyy below the level of the vintage. I am using this to figure out how much Duelund/Supreme to get. I can not believe how flat they make the sound. The difference is even bigger than the tweeter caps made. The vintage caps in the tweeters showed their age more than midrange. So now it is all negative with the Sonicaps. (except their is a slight less drone)
JohnK I am wondering on your Fisher rebuild did you use good caps? If they used cheap caps like this I can see why it did not sound good!!!
I will be putting in the order tonight. Here goes guessing. |
Merganser
Not one cap has changed one bit in dynamics in break in. (that I can hear)
Can you tell me the right way then? Please do not say the lousy dynamics will somehow change at some magical hour of break in.
So are you saying that the MUCH bigger same type a cap Mundorf which has much better dynamics right out of the box is not because it is a much bigger cap?
Why is it only Sonicap that is sooooo flat? Are they special compared to others with break in. I am half way to 100 hours and after the first 5 hours I can not tell the difference. Even then the Sonicaps have not become more dynamic. |
I will do much more burn in on the Mundorf's. They are around 50hrs and will burn them into several hundred as I am curious to how they eventually settle. I also want to know for future use in possibly replacing the caps in my other speakers. They may be more cost effective as I am unsure how much $ I would want to spend on them.
Right now the Duelund's make my other speakers unlistenable. So that is the downside that one may want to consider, the speakers you thought OK will sound awful after Duelund becomes your reference. |
Sorry guys late and off to bed.
I will answer comments tomorrow.
All I was saying is the Mundorf is much bigger has much more dynamics than Sonicap and is well worth the money difference. (for this kind of application in my opinion)
from Mundorf
"Special induction-free winding technology: Two capacitor windings are interleaved so that their inductances effectively cancel each other out. These two windings are connected in series. This means that it takes two 2µF windings to make a single 1µF MCap-Supreme capacitor - the same amount that it would take to produce a full 4µF of capacity using conventional technology"!
I wish I heard that from former Klipsch owners. I am no cap expert but have owned these speakers for 30 years so I do know what they sound like and can say a Sonicap is a for sure downgrade from original. (if I would have read that from a 30 year owner who has nothing to sell)
When I started this (I was and still am no cap expert or claim to be) I was told by so much I read (on the net) it would be easy to replace the vintage caps as they were not very good compared to modern caps. I have found this simply to NOT be true. Yes there are better caps out today. (Duelund for sure) I'll I am saying is if Sonicap is the best bang for the buck cap one might start to think about spending more than you think.
I hope one reads this in the future and says to themselves Ok $3500 (for last pair of Khorns same year on ebay selling price) that it might cost them more than they think to bring the speakers back to spec.
A quote from Steen Duelund
"From the great variety of types - stick to stack foils or variations on that theme if you can find them without plastics. The good old Micas works wonderfully well but they are far too expensive for greater values. Go for older types following the simple rule that bigger is better. A good sounding construction will be introduced from Jensen Capacitor in the near future". (An artificial stack foil, which regrettably only can be manufactured by hand for now.)
Steen likes caps "without plastics". (can't argue there) Older type caps. (can't argue there) Bigger is better. (can't argue there)
I am just saying I think the man is/was on to something and something BIG! (no plastic may be the key!)
Tony Gee said how his caps made things sound so real and super natural. |
Dear Raul
I guess we have to agree to disagree. I said I do want the dynamics of the original caps. The Sonicaps clearly are NOT there and sound like a filter. I do like the Mundorf/Duelund more dynamic sound and do NOT consider that coloration.
I do agree that the Sonicaps are Nuetral by this I mean they do not favour the high or low freq. One could say that maybe the SIO has a upward tilt.
To Undertow
With the Mundorf size thing. Mundorf states that they are using basically 4x as much windings to get the same result of uf. To me I kept hearing from what I was reading Mundorf is boutique (kind of cap) meaning that it was wayyyy overpriced for what it was. I am just stating that Mundorf IS wayyyyyy more cap than standard and SHOULD cost more money. To me I can hear night and day when the Mundorf goes in (over Sonicap) a lifting of congestion. I think (but do not have facts) that the 4x the windings is able to store and release more electricity. When the Sonicap goes flat the Mundorf is still going. I think the Mundorf is WELL worth the money. It is Steen Duelund (who is an expert) not me who says the bigger the cap the better. (all things equal) So that Mundorf wound 4 caps into 1 SHOULD be better in my mind.
All I did say is I agree with Steen. Bigger is better. No plastic seems better as well. |
Undertow I am very confused by your comments. You cap size has nothing to do with it yet admit that Mundorf is two caps in one in series yet many claim it to be more dynamic? The Mundorf IS more cap Mundorf claims 4 caps in one. Would 4 caps in one of the same style of caps not be more dynamic? Mundorf is basically 4 caps so why would it NOT be more dynamic.
I do not mean a big empty can would make a cap more dynamic but 4 caps in one??? Why not? I actually think Mundorf is quite a cap for the money and no wonder so many high end companies are using it. You get 4 caps in 1. Whatever electricity is stored in a Sonicap is stored 4 times over in a Mundorf correct? Either way I could no doubt "hear" congestion lifting by even one Mundorf. All I am saying to Undertow is I read a ton of stuff about caps and it was not being stressed to me enough just how much better they were for the money. I find some people discount anything that costs more as silly waste of money especially caps which have no glory. |
Undertow
Again I do not understand your comments against size by saying IF Sonicap made there caps two caps in one like Mundorf they would be as dynamic. To me you are agreeing with me as I agree with you IF Sonicap did this they MIGHT be as dynamic as Mundorf. That is all I said is the "current" Sonicap is not as dynamic as Mundorf but IF Sonicap wound 4 caps in 1 like Mundorf they might be as good.
This proves Steen's theory that all things being equal you want a bigger cap!
It is a good debate as I do not want to pay for "nothing" either but in the case of Mundorf there is CLEAR reasons why they cost more and why they are better. To me a Mundorf Supreme is a slam dunk worth the money in any speaker that is worth very much at all! |
Dear Raul
I am a rookie at this but like I said have owned the speakers for 30 years know what they sounded like and can hear. Of course it is my opinion because if all liked the same caps there would only be 1.
I do stand by my statement on dynamics as I read a lot about caps and no one talked about the dynamcis just smoothness etc.
Duelund's add false dynamics???? I would like to get more of that false dynamics then!
The Duelund's are exposing weakness in my system??? Well Partsconnexion says they are the top selling high end caps they have. Must be a lot of people with weak systems?
You keep saying the Duelund's are colored/distorted and say I am giving misinformation. The Duelund's may be "colored" (by your measurements) but distorted. Holy Crap that is the BEST my speakers ever sounded.
If I knew for sure the Duelund's would make that kind of differnce in the midrange I would be thrilled!
Raul I think you are confusing Nuetral with "flat". I can not imagine wanting to make music flat (like the Sonicaps do) |
Cap order is in for 13uf VSF Duelund. I am like my kids in counting the sleeps!
Stormen I will need two more caps for tweeters and am looking at the CAST ones for the tweeters. I am very curious? I will be only using one CAST a side (but I am going to test two to see the difference) as I own the VSF's already. Is that where you would put the money in the first place would be in the tweeter as that is the toughest to get right? |
Stormen do you have any more writings by Steen?
Also have you heard the difference from the VSF and the CAST ones? I can't even imagine.
Does it cost more to get special values? I see a 10uf or 15uf is $337 or $379 so should I assume a 13uf is in the middle for cost?
This would be much more cost effective than a 10uf and 3uf. The combo totals $500.
I think I am going that way. I will order tomorrow.
I can't wait to hear the reviews of the CAST ones from Tony Gee and others to hear if it is even better.
I guess I could bypass with a small Mundorf if I think it is needed.
Stormen these things are not good though it can ruin one for any other kind of cap. (and ruin your wallet)
If all goes well there I will look later at their inductors.
Thanks Volleyguy
I have contacted Partsconnextion for the quote. The worst thing that will happen is I do not like the cap in the midrange but am thrilled with them in the tweeter and feel it to be worth every penny there. |
Sorry Raul I do not understand what you are saying??? |
Johnk I can not say about the Fostex tweeter as I have not heard them. I have to replace my caps with out a doubt as they are worn out. I am going to do the caps first no doubt. I can very much look at new tweeters when the time comes. How do they blend in with the Klipsch drivers in the midrange? Are they both balanced out nicely? |
Talked to partsconnextion. 3-4 week for custom caps from Duelund. The cost is in between 10uf and 15uf.
The problem is I keep coming back to the Duelund/Supreme for the tweeters.
The high freq noise of the vintage caps (midrange) is taken away by the Supreme/Duelund combo. The problem with this is trying to assess how much distortion is coming through the mid cap and what it's affect is? I tried putting the Sonicap in the midrange for tuning purposes and they do reveal that my midrange caps are distorting which I am not surprised. On the other side the Sonicaps really hold back any of the gains of the Duelund/Mundorf. The whole speaker sounds flat with them.
I really think having the reference of original there is very valuable to anyone doing this. (if you basically like the original) You can keep coming back to them to see what it was you like and see what is the faults you do not like.
When you replace caps the first thing you notice is what you now have. When the Sonicaps went in (whole speaker) I noticed the lack of noise and went Wow! Then after awile you realise what you don't have. The dynamic live feel why I liked the speakers in the first place was gone. (why I put them up for sale is I thought new caps might not have it)
My options are 10uf Duelund paired with 3.3uf Supreme (and wonder would 13uf duelund be even better) or 13uf Duelund built and add a Supreme by later if needed?
To me I would think 10uf would give almost all that the Duelund could give and 3.3 Supreme could not lower it in any way.
I agree with Tempo on the Mundorf Supreme
"It is rich, detailed, and full-bodied, though a bit softer sounding than the Duelund VSF" (I feel slightly rougher sounding)
The softening in horns is not a bad thing!
I do love what the Duelund does with one tweeter cap but do not like the second? The problem is is the reason the worn midrange cap causing the problem? The connection is midrange to tweeter caps so for sure whatever the midrange cap does goes to the tweeter caps. Or is Tempo right run two types of caps on any circuit you can?
I have put the lonely SIO back in with the Mundorf Supreme for the weekend to burn some hours on it and to feel comfortable with the Mundorf Supreme order I am going to make on Monday.
For Klipsch guys in my opinion all three have the dynamics that as a Klipsch owner you are looking for. The Supreme is a screaming good deal. I guess there is a reason that cap dominates the OEM (higher end) market.
One thing for certain all three are very good caps! In my opinion you can not go wrong with any of the three. The Duelund's take you into uncharted territory that your Klipsch will have never sounded like!
Very excited about next week as I am almost certain to get off the shelf Duelund/Supreme combo for the mids. |
Johnk the reason I like the Supreme's over the SIO is just the tilt. The SIO (in my opinion a very good cap) but a slight (to me) unnatural focus on the high freq. I feel like all I listen to is the cymbals? The Supreme's are only a bypass cap to the Duelund's. (they so far take a slight edge off the Duelund's that may be caused by my vintage mid caps) What is the proper % of a cap to be the bypass cap? The Duelund is much more real for instruments.
While we were talking what is the price of your new horns? Going by latest e-bay sales the last set of same era Khorns (as my Lascala's) was $3500 plus shipping. Then you have to spend on the crossovers and in my mind Mundorf Supreme is absolute minimum. (to compare to vintage) Then you may want to rewire. So for a person who does not already own Klipsch (like me) and had to pay for very costly shipping and a lot of $ in crossover especially Duelund or the more costly Mundorf. You could have easy $6k+ into a set of Khorns. Are yours around that range and are they better? (I am sure you do believe in yours or else you wouldn't be selling them) |
Duelund makes custom orders like the 13uf I am getting and the price is just the cap value price.
Kind of itching to get on with this and order the rest of the parts. But the Duelund is not cheap so I do want to make sure it gives the improvement in the midrange that they do in the tweeters.
Only question is will I do the inductors? The vintage caps were worn out no doubt so the improvement is HUGE but the inductors do not wear so it is only a quality improvement.
After the mid cap and if all goes well I will order 2 CAST tweeter caps and the other mid cap and be done for now.
I can not even comprehend the CAST caps? The VSF's exceeded my wildest expectations and can not understand the improvement on them? |
A friend of mine had the Silver Gold/Oil installed in his phono stage and he thought it a huge improvement. (from the Supreme's that were there)
I am not sure why the Supreme's are working so well with Duelund's for me? Could be a combintation of them being somewhat softer/quieter. They do take the slight white noise with the two Duelund's away and make the sound more enjoyable. I just do not know if the noise from the second Duelund (in the tweeter) is caused by the worn out vintage mid cap or is something that will be there if I go strictly Duelund in the midrange?
That is why I have been guessing/trying to figure out would I be better to go 13uf Duelund on the assumption that it will take out the white noise? or 10uf Mundorf and 3.3uf Supreme with it's softer sound?
The white noise from the tweeter caps is what caused the rebuild in the first place. That is how I knew the caps were done is much higher noise. The mids could easily being sending noise to the tweeters. Then the (two) Duelund's just shows it to be there. (the Supreme just take the white noise away) |
Just came back from listening to my "main" system. The Linn speakers who before the tweeter cap upgrade (in the Klipsch) were completely above the Klipsch. (past posts)
Now I am shocked at the Duelund differnce. Makes even very good caps sound rough. The slight white noise has gone away and I will do the Duelund/Supreme test again to make sure.
On Monday I will order the 13uf Duelund. I am very excited to see what that can do for the midrange. That is going to be a tough few weeks of wait!
I might just have to get the Duelund inductor for the woofer in the mean time.
Stormen I can see why you just don't even bother with any other company.
Stormen I view these caps as perfection but they must not be as the cast costs more and must be even better? I can't even imagine! |
