Undertow
Yes you are correct. I just could not afford to do what Jimmy has done. I often reverse the parts and use several amps and reverse tubes etc. So Yes not exact but often there can be such a huge change it is not hard to hear at all.
Speaking of a huge change as much as I have struggled with the Jensen vs. vintage Vishay I am having no such trouble with the inductors.
The Deulund is MUCH smoother. The midrange much better. The North Creek has a starker and harder sound. The North Creek like Irish said may dig deeper? I am not sure yet? I had mentioned a long time ago every time I put in a Duelund part in seems to make all sources sound better. They make your best sound better and your worst. To me this makes them unique. The WPIO inductor is no exception.
This is a lush sounding inductor.
I will be comparing over next few days but if the initial impression is correct (and I think it is) I have ordered my last new non Duelund part as I simply am not interest anymore in anything else. I do want to see how this inductor compares to vintage though. So far better in every way. (from memory) |
Sorry Face
What I meant by that is yes there was no comparison before from 2 VSF in series to 2 CAST in series but I really liked 1 CAST followed by 1 VSF. I thought it sounded at least 80% the way to CAST at much less cost. It seems strange how when in series the circuit will take on much of the characteristic of the stronger cap.
What I mean is are 2 CAST (series) worth the extra expense. I have to work from memory because I can not compare 1 CAST 1 VSF to 2 CAST's. My original thought is it was not and maybe I could spend more wisely elsewhere.
Just rechecking before I start to solder in Duelund wire. |
I am over 100 hours on the Jensen's Paper Copper Tube caps.
Jensen vs. vintage.
Well not all vintage is the same as is not all new caps. In the phono stage Fisher used some no name cap and it was not very good. So Jensen there all the way.
Now on to the linestage.
Jensen vs. vintage foil Vishay Ero Fol II. What this Vishay has in common with the Vishay that Tony Gee talks about I am not sure, maybe nothing?
Although this vintage shares many of the same traits. They sound very alive. "concert hall acoustics" Tony says about new Vishay ERO is it the same?
When I was done doing the speakers and wrote on here that Duelund blew away the vintage tweeter caps but it was quite close in the midrange, much closer than I was thinking it would be. I expected to get a blast from everyone and including Duelund.
I now understand that since Steen used vintage in electronics and since this was a midrange cap test it was not surprsing that it was close.
The Jensen vs. Vishay is going to need the full 200 hours to decide. It is very close. When/if the Jensen moves past the vintage in midrange realness then I have a easy choice.
Some of the best deals in Audio must be those old foil caps because they go for chump change. (now that they are old)
The Duelund VSF for the midrange is $500 each and it was close to vintage foil. The Mundorf's Supreme's for the midrange were $100 and the vintage was much better. In fact before I assemble the speakers I am going to try it again, to see how close. Now at least Duelund was better.
The Sonicaps vs vintage foil was the first test I did and my wife said that is the BEST thing you have ever done! (Audio wise) but the problem was she talking about the vintage!
The Jensen's were over $100 (on sale) for a pair and I still like (so far) the vintage better but Jensen is a good replacement and I see why vintage tube guys have used them for so long.
So I am taking out that amp and putting in the EL84 for a comparison from Duelund vs. North Creek inductors. (so that all parts are the same)
I need to know whether to order a second inductor or not? |
Ait
I will let you know on the Jensen's. They are for sure pretty good. They do not have a plastic sound of poly. I will be comparing them myself against the Duelund VSF the cap that seems to not get much attention anymore and I am not sure why? To me the VSF and CAST sound for sure from the same family. Yes the CAST has much less noise but tonality is very good on both. I think the WPIO inductor is wayyyyy quieter than likely any other inductor barring of course CAST. (maybe the Jensen is good I do not know)
I can say I am starting to appreciate the Jensen Copper Paper tube caps more all the time. (vs vintage and now over 100+ hours) |
The inductor is a very overlooked part in my mind.
SET had posted on his thread that his North Creek is much better than a Solen inductor. For sure I can imagine this. I have never heard a Solen but there is no way to deal with resonance in this inductor. Just loose wire with twist ties.
The North Creek uses very hard wire and bakes to one another to one hard chunk of copper. This goes part way on resonance reduction.
The Duelund WPIO is a fairly hard chunk of all natural material of paper and oil and in which the wires do not touch each other.
What does this mean. The NC resonates and gives a blurry background in comparison. The Deulund sounds darker but more realistic. That high freq resonance that the Clarity White Paper talks about is very real.
The Deulund also sounds more natural in tone. Is that the Silk oil I do not know? I expect so. Nevertheless this is one fine sounding inductor. I can only imagine what a CAT sounds like. I would expect the same as in the caps even less noise. |
Face already ordered.
My gut feel is that the CAST would be even better? Duelund has MUCH less noise than NC and I bet CAST even less. I have to admit I never understood an inductor before.
Still have to compare against vintage. I bet the noise is about the same? Wax paper inductor essential in my mind. One really needs some way to deal with this resonance.
I still have some unused parts. (anyone interested)
1 Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil 2.2uf
1 2.5mh North Creek 10 guage inductor.
Both are in as new condition never been soldered. |
Differences from North Creek to Duelund
The Duelund is darker more romantic sound. The North Creek crisper with more emphasis on middle and upper freq crispness. Drums have more snap on the NC than on the Duelund they are also of lower volume and crispness. On the Norah Jones CD the Duelund presentation will be lush but somewhat darker sounding. Norah is the star on the Duelund lush sounding on the NC the drums start taking the show and Norah voice becomes brittle.
With tone controls the treble is flat with the Duelund with the NC I would cut it back the treble. No contest in which is smoother, Duelund all the way. With the cuts in noise the Duelund will have more perceived bass. (less high freq and high freq noise) This makes the Duelund a easier long term listen. No hardness to sound at all. NC is sensitive to source and these differences are quite large.
I do notice the same things as when VSF or even more so when CAST went in the tweeter the amount/volume of sound goes down and this is noise reduction.
In the inductor the NC is MUCH louder volume wise.
Duelund works very well in this application as my speakers were tilted to much to mid and high. One may want an NC (although I think not) if your speakers were already on the dark side because NC for sure will tilt sound upward and be more crisp at a price though of harshness.
|
Undertow
My DCR guage puts the vintage at .3 to .4ohm (supposed to be .29)
The NC goes from .1 to .2 and NC says .15 I believe.
I would for sure NOT say NC on the woofers. A wax paper inductor of some sort. I am testing Duelund vs vintage which are both wax paper inductors. Both have DCR's around .3.
I will post again soon.
Face I did not buy a resistor because I had to try the Duelund first which has a very close DCR at 12 gauge. So the resistor might not have been needed.
I did prefer the vintage over NC even though I knew the vintage was cutting bass. The vintage (wax paper) has much less noise and harshness. So again I would have just kept that inductor over the NC.
I can say after a few minutes that the vintage and Duelund sound more related than the NC. |
This is going to take a little while to figure out.
The Duelund and the vintage are for sure not miles apart. This was one part I was unsure of doing as an inductor does not wear like a capacitor. So any new one would have to be technically better.
One thing I always wondered was does gauge matter? A steel laminate core inductor using 28 guage has the DCR of .3 a 12 guage air core is about the same so on a technical basis both are about the same resistance.
Hysteris is supposed to be awful. (even sounds like a disease) Yet on a thread I linked here to Al Klappenberger said in reality the measured distortion was very low? (from the vintage Klipsch laminate core)
I know a 28 guage wire running to your woofer sounds terrible. But is .3 DCR not .3 DCR? Is it not the resistance that matters not the guage?
Now if both are .3 DCR and neither has resonance. Should they not sound similiar?
Joe any words? |
Face
There is for sure more bass out of the Duelund. To me this is like going from VSF to CAST it is disorientating. When I put in the CAST (tweeter) I was shocked at how much less white noise compared to VSF.
My expectation on the changing the inductor was for more bass. (either NC or Duelund) Not sure why I did not understand noise from inductor???
As far as what an inductor does technically letting through the low freq signal blocking the high freq the Duelund is by far the quietest. (vintage second)
I am now starting to understand inductors better. When they resonate they make a thinner sound. You get the woofer adding high freq noise. (I really believe that Clarity white paper) This takes away fullness of the sound. The Duelund gives the impression of more bass but is it because of just less white noise coming through the woofer? (or like you said Face maybe purer copper and 12 guage or the silk?)
Norah's voice is richer fuller sounding. I think from the noise reduction from the woofer. So more of the voice comes from the woofer. On the vintage her voice is frail. On the Duelund you can hear more easily of the double tracking (on some tracks) of her voice to make it sound even fuller.
On Norah's voice you notice a huge drop in SSSSS's on Duelund.
If Deulund VSF is SSSS's
Vintage is SSSSSSSSS's
NC even more
Can we assume CAST is SS's?
Looking forward to see what the VSF does in electronics. Reducing noise without making things sound dead is the trick. The Jensen Copper Tube type does well at reducing noise just wish it was a little more realistic in the midrange.
I am going to spend awhile vintage vs. Duelund to see if I got my money's worth. At first when I put the vintage in (to compare to Duelund) I started to wonder? Now I coming to understand and appreciate the difference. |
Frederik/Duelund
You guys must be getting confident? or you need to make two parts at once? That is great because I have heard enough of the vintage and am starting to tire of one speaker.
The second inductor is being sent today as well as the .047uf VSF cap.
I must say the Duelund WPIO inductor is a great part. After listening more this part makes a GREAT difference in voices. With the grealy reduced noise level the sound is rounder fuller and lush. Much more human sounding. Which does make sense as sound tilts to the low freq more because of less noise. Sometimes the voices do not even sound the way I remembered them? Took some getting used too. Norah's recording is much more enjoyable.
Looking very forward to when the second inductor gets here. I am going to wire up one speakers hook up wire with the Duelund (copper) wire right away. The only comparision will be against the crap stock wire. Not a comparison against a good part just how much does hook up wire matter. I am done buying any other parts. Too expensive I lose money every time.
I want to complete the Jensen Copper paper tube burn in as that is a good part. (about 100 hours on them in the other amp) |
Irish65
Why are you selling off never used Duelund parts? Why were they not used? I might be interested in the wire? |
Irish65
It would be nice for you to post your thoughts on your extensive experiments with parts. |
Other Duelund inductor is here.
Nice to have a full Duelund speakers of VSF and CAST. I only have the Autoformer and tweeter resonance cap that are non Duelund.
In many ways I am glad this is done. So many hours (and $) to get an understanding of what goes on in speakers. I can never look at a set of speakers the same.
Also one Duelund .047 VSF is here. That is one expensive little capacitor.
Irish I am going to do the same as you and sell off the non used parts. Which are mostly gone.
Anyone looking for a
Mundorf Silver in Oil 2.2uf (never soldered)
2.5 mh North Creek (never soldered)
If not I am going to list on e-bay. |
Ait
I should check to see what my amp runs at voltage wise as it is a big difference for the high voltage caps.
The CAST do take a couple of weeks to open up I think.
I am just completing the break in on the Jensen Copper Paper tube caps now that the speakers are all Duelund and all the same.
I am curious as to how the VSF and Jensen compare? |
I suspect the Jensen is only available up to 1uf maybe after that the Duelund VSF would be the way to go if you can use low volts? The Duelund is $139 and Jensen $105 at 1uf. (of course there is a voltage difference) I find the Duelund to be good value in mid to large size uf's. In small uf's the Duelund is realatively pricey. I assume this is because it likely takes no less time to make .047uf compared to 2uf?
The Jensen's are at around 120 hours now. Ait the Jensen's are very musical sounding cap. Norah's "Turn Me On" the vintage makes the drums to loud they crowd the singer which I am sure is not right. The Jensen is a fuller richer sound and much deeper in the bass. The foundation of the music is much better. The vintage can not capture the mood, missing much of the bottom end. I wonder if that is why I did not really like this CD before but really do now? I have heard some people say this CD is boring. I kind of thought so before as well but do not now. In a CD like this for sure the big beefy caps (like Jensen) make a BIG difference.
I really like the Jensen caps. I am really curious as to how they compare to Duelund? The Jensens are very fun to listen too. Only when one gets critical is the midrange "alive" sounding?
Time to fire up the solder gun and install the Duelund. |
Well guys did you get to hear the speakers? Very curious what they sounded like? |
Ait
Great post. That was the regular Mundorf Supreme's not the Silver in Oil, correct? Hmmm I did not notice that in the Supreme's. The Silvers have a large tilt in my mind. Tonality did you notice a big difference? |
After reading Ait's post I got my butt in gear and installed the Duelund VSF in the amp.
Also installed other Jensen phono coupling cap. The vintage were just junk in this spot. Moved the other Jensen so one signal is all Jensen or Duelund except one cap. (need more money) |
I had installed the Duelund VSF and was shocked at how much they sounded like the vintage Vishay's but better. There was a distinct change in the sound to being more "alive". The sound was very different in the midrange. The all Jensen signal became HiFi sounding, good but you knew it was not real.
The maddening part was the volume pot went on the Fisher. I never had old stuff before this thread started. I became fascinated by "alive" sound. In the 5 hours before the pot went I kept thinking Steen was CLEARLY voicing caps around the vintage sound with out a doubt.
I have another volume pot here so I hope to not be down to long, hopefully tomorrow. I was really enjoying those 5 hours but I am not enjoying vintage gear. It seems like there is always something wrong with this stuff!
I really have no love of vintage it was just the sound. I think I could get that sound with a modern amp and Jensen/Duelund caps.
I would love to install the caps in the working EL84 but there just is not room. |
Duelund I for sure can not argue on the goals of recreating a "live" sound.
I listened to the EL4 for several hours with still all vintage caps in amp and full Duelund crossover for the first time and really, really like it. What is it about tube rectified? Very musical.
I have installed another volume pot. (broken sping)
I will report back on the VSF but can already say in those first 5 hours (before) I was shocked (at what happened) at how the Jensen's took the signal in one direction away from the vintage to technical superiority but missing midrange realness. The Duelund's took the signal right back in the vintage direction to the point that I started to go back and forth to see if I could hear a difference. |
Duelund so I take that to mean Steen liked the CAST better or felt them technically superior? (which they are)
Been busy with work lately. I want to retest the CAST vs. VSF (tweeter caps in speakers) on amp with all the same caps. Trying to figure out where to go from here but am very happy even right here. |
Ait
Tony did say that the Vishay's did help all caps except the Duelund's if I remember right? But bypassing for sure seems to have people for and against it.
The Duelund CAST are a little tight they reduce high freq by nature, most of it noise. I really like a VSF in the circuit. I find them to be the most "alive" of any of the caps. I kind of have been trying to say that on this thread that yes the CAST are the king but the VSF's are something special as well.
In my tweeter circuit in series I have tried two CAST and two VSF and one of each. I found two VSF resonate too much. Two CAST extremely quiet and one CAST followed by a VSF just about right for me. If I had a choice I would say I like the sound 80% of the way to CAST. (from VSF)
Speaking of that very same subject my feeling on this is a low resonance cap early in the circuit say the phono or pre-amp and then the VSF at the end. The VSF brings "life" (some of that through resonance) to the sound that is uncanny. I would say both the CAST and Jensen Copper Tube types are both exremely low resonance caps and the VSF has more.
It is only now with the VSF in the circuit with the Jensen Copper Tube caps that I can say there is nothing better about the vintage caps. Sound is now "alive". The Jensens are a very good cap excellent dynamics very quiet no plastic tone but like Steen said you have no doubt that this sound comes from a stereo and not real people or instruments.
On Norah Jones Painters Song I could hear a full life sized accordion. I have heard the song many times but only now did it click in what the sound was? On a worn out Beatles White Album last song on side three Long, Long, Long was an organ. (heard that MANY times) This happens over and over with the Duelund parts. Random sounds can be identified for what they are.
Ait I am going to give that link a read. I do understand where you are coming from on the CAST though, liking the more high freq extension. Although I am not sure it is high freq extension. I tried the VSF vs. the CAST on music with violins and the CAST made the violins more dynamic and louder while at the same time the signal was quieter. The CAST are so quiet (noise wise) they are disorientating. Ait I would say give it some time for your brain to adjust as well.
I bet Steen either used a combintation of VSF and CAST or all VSF? Not sure if he had passed away before the CAST came out? |
Duelund
I can not argue with that (devoid of false detail) at all on the CAST. The caps are fantastic in design, no doubt. When I installed the CAST tweeter caps I put my ear to the tweeter astonished how pure the sound was. They made your own VSF caps sound noisy.
On the other side that noise made by most caps we have become accustomed too. It can even be thought of as "life" to the recording. So is Ait missing the "false detail"? I have to admit to this myself having a VSF after the CAST and liking it and knowing that the VSF adds false detail. (through resonance)
In fact you got me thinking again I am going to put the two CAST tweeter caps back in again. It was something I was considering anyway (buying two more CAST tweeter caps) as CAST cuts noise by a shocking amount.
Please do not take this as criticism as I do not find other caps even close to yours in making super natural sounds. |
Running all low res caps on one channel. In the amp Jensen Copper Paper tube Duelund VSF (one) and CAST tweeter caps vs. higher resonance VSF tweeter caps in other speakers and vinage caps in the amp.
When you put them all together the difference is HUGE! Dynamics are not even close. MUCH more dynamic in low resonance channel.
Now to pull out that amp (put in same cap in both channel amp) and just isolate just the tweeter caps.
Duelund in my estimation if the cap resonates you get more perceived high freq sound at the loss of dynamics and bass? Also another question is there a point where the cap is phyically as large as needed? Diminishing return?
This exercise has been extremely worth it.
Duelund don't read this next part. (just kidding) I think one can get much of the Duelund natural sound (if cost is a factor) using the Jensen Copper Paper tubes before the Duelund in the same amp circuit. I think Jensen would be a much better choice then any poly cap. |
Ait
Your comment on the bass on CAST. I would not argue at all. My speakers were known to be bass shy. So the CAST were tailor made. I do not think they overstate the bass though. My feeling (like Steen said) is that all other caps resonate high freq.. CAST do not resonate at all that I can find. So no high freq is added so seems like more bass. I agree with you but you might want to try a VSF after the CAST. I have done this in the tweeters and really like it. The VSF have all the tonality and do resonate somewhat. I find the CAST more demanding on upstream components and source material. VSF is a very forgiving part. Technically not as good as CAST but works for me.
I expect to always use a combination. By the way the Jensen is along the same lines as the CAST. |
Daz_Bike
I do remember liking it CAST/VSF over the other way but not something huge. Of course YMMV. It has been well talked about how a circuit will take a caps characteristics.
What I think helps in the thread is you can expect the same as others have got. The CAST do not resonate so this may be good for you but you WILL get less noise and this tilts the sound to more bass. My feeling is that the circuit takes the sound of the last cap the most?
I like the bloom of the VSF. We all know it was dead quiet in the studio yet for some reason we are used to a little noise? I suspect it is a the Clarity white paper says all caps resonate at a high freq so we are used to it. |
Hooking up the woofers with Duelund solid copper wire and either I am doing something wrong or this stuff is hard to work with! Solder just falls off the wire. Very slippery!
I will try again tommorow.
I did sand the end of the copper wire to get off (I thought) the silk.
I tried Mundorf Silver solder and regular solder. |
Hmmm interesting Dave.
I have always wondered why Audio is not clear cut like video. Put 10 guys in a room and they will mostly like the same TV as the best and will not have big disagreements either way. Ask the same question about Audio and you could have 10 different systems picked.
So 10 people looking for a different levels of microphony?
Most music we reference (in our minds) was amplified so of course it would have had noise when we heard it.
Another thing I bet is most of the guys spending money on high end (low resonant) caps are older. I find as I age I like less resonance. I become frustrated by noise yet still want "treble air".
For me it is going to be a combo of Jensen, Duelund VSF and CAST when noise needs to be reduced.
"I'm beginning to think of the entire audio chain from silicon on up (not just capacitors) in terms of internally generated microphonic resonant affects".
I think it is exactly that. |
Since getting an all foil signal chain of vintage and then massively improving with Duelund I have only one nagging question?
In the begining of this thread I took as fact my Linn Lp12 sounded great and the Linn Karik a piece of junk capable of making everything sound dead and plastic.
Well several K$'s in Duelund parts and my CD player sounds awesome. Crazy super natural sounding! Just mind boggling. Now my Lp12 (almost a loaded one before recent updates) can sound very good but there is always present a slight groove noise that is clear to me know. Even on mint (almost never played) vinyl. It gets worse as you move through the LP. The stylus is not very old either.
Now if one thinks about it. Why would there NOT be almost a static high freq sound caused by the rubbing of diamond on vinyl? Also it should get worse as the stylus moves faster in the groove.
So after ditching 150+ lps because of clear wear and have more to ditch. I have thought about getting rid of the turntable maybe as well.
This is not what I thought was going to happen by getting high quality parts. I believe the "treble air" I thought was some unique part of the vinyl "live" experience is really just high freq static mechanically generated. Of course digital can not generate this "treble air". |
Put back in the EL84 to compare one last time CAST vs. VSF in tweeters. For me it is whether it is 1 CAST with a VSF in series or 2 CAST's. (for SURE not 2 VSF's) I want to solder this up with the Duelund wire (speakers) and one last order on coupling caps and be done.
Very happy. |
Roxy54
I was a ticked man who did not know why my new gear could not touch this old stuff and I had to find out why? (personality trait or flaw) I don't subscribe to the vintage is better thing so I had to understand why? Foil caps with no plastic. Plastic permeates so much of most modern hi-fi. No doubt due to cost.
There is one major rock I did not overturn and that would be a SET amp. Also never went down the Silver wire or caps route. (just out of my league) |
Retesting the CAST vs. VSF tweeter caps.
The CAST cut tweeter output by at least 50% in my mind compared to VSF. (two in each circuit)
Now is this all increased resonance in the VSF?
It would be nice to hear fom Duelund on this as this is huge difference. I was confused when I heard two CAST vs. two VSF before as I did not expect such a change? I am still shocked! Almost like a resistor in circuit? Duelund if I check ohms both caps will be the same?
Is all the extra VSF sound just resonance?
I have to agree with Steen even his VSF you can hear the tweeter cap all over the signal.
In my opinion skip the VSF in the tweeters and go for the CAST but you are going to get more bass from the less high freq.
Ait have you retested?
I am going to wire up the speakers for now though anyway and get back to finishing the amp or Duelund is going to have me broke!
The Jensen for anyone interested are a low res cap like the CAST lower then the VSF which is all about tone. The Jensen weakness is in the midrange not being as natural.
Next week I am ordering more Jensen and Duelund to finish project. |
After several days of listening I still feel the same as I did before. Two CAST might be too quiet and two VSF to noisy. So it is going to be CAST followed by VSF.
I have one poly cap left a Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil that did not sell when I sold off the poly caps.
After several months I want to see if I still felt the same there as well. Was I being to harsh?
After only a few minutes most is still the same. Instruments lose their natural tone and this is even with all foil signal chain and one CAST tweeter cap followed by the Mundorf Silver in Oil. I will take back some of what I did say though. The balance is not off. The CAST tilts the sound down and the Silver in Oil back up so the balance is not bad. Like Tony says like cooking.
Still there is something about the way poly caps resonate they do not make natural sounds? I hear they test well on the S/N ratio and I believe they are very good on the noise part but not good on the signal.
I think Tony needs to test the Jensen Paper Copper tube as well. I think we will have #1,#2 and #3 right there.
Where the sound is at
The other day my mother was over and I had the music turned up (Norah Jones) and was upstairs. She could not believe what she was hearing. She knows nothing about this test and I do not say anything. She could care less about Audio (but is an amatuer singer) in general and thinks her Bose Wave Radio sounds as good as anything else she's heard with less fuss. She was beside herself with what she was hearing. She had to go downstairs to see/hear what that was. She is in her 60's and does not get like this over audio. (never) She could not believe it. She had never heard a tube all foil signal. |
Just got in 2 more Jensen Copper Paper tube caps and a Black Gate. I want to finish at least one amps power supply as well. Also want to compare a Jensen full signal to some Duelund as well. |
I have been very busy with work for last couple weeks. I had been over on the Linn site (when home) talking about foil caps and vintage tubes and how natural it sounds. There was another guy there saying the same thing. Talking about his Scott amp. I noticed it within seconds when I first heard a all foil tube amp and foil crossover that it was warts and all vastly superior to the SS and poly caps or new tube gear I had heard.
I think Linn has suspended my account though? I can not log on anymore, maybe just temporary? (but likely not) It was I understand one of the top 20 threads ever on the Linn site and of course causing controversy.
It actually blows my mind that MANY Linn guys will say vintage recordings are the best on vinyl (recorded with tube amps and foil caps) but tube amps are no good? If the reverse of the chain foil caps and tubes makes a great recording how can it not be great for play back? |
Sherod
The IC's were noticable as well? Have you done the speaker wire?
Undertow Plastic has nothing to do with it? Ok what is it then?
Why do all my low amount or no plastic parts always sound better? |
My computer had crashed awhile ago so just getting some log-ins back.
Of course agreed the choice is not just of materials but how they are put together, no one could argue that. Tempo Electric had the old Jensen Aluminum Paper in Oil were Tier F and Duelund was tops and other than copper the material was not that different.
The question would be why the Jensen was rated so poor? My guess is noise (poor construction) and Aluminum not sounding as good as copper. The Poly caps though having different faults. Fake sounding.
So does it not make sense to start with at least natural sounding qualities and lower the faults?
I have one full signal of just Duelund VSF (just one) and rest Jensen Copper Foil Paper Tube and other signal all Jensen except last two still vintage. Dynamics and bass is the only real difference and it is big.
For me I feel I have got all I was looking for. The tone of vintage and the dynamics and bass of modern.
So I guess I mean their is nothing special about a vintage capacitor that has not been bettered in every way today. |
JohnK
It is true it is my tastes. It has been said on here by many others though they do feel the same.
The Klipsch are long done. After great results I wanted to know if the same could be done to an amp.
Right now one signal (in the amp) is all Jensen Copper Foil Paper tube with one Duelund VSF and the other is the same except just one vintage. I wanted to know if I could hear the difference from just one capacitor and it shocks me how much. Easily and no problem. Tonight was the first time I had to really test this out.
I will be ordering another Duelund VSF and comparing Duelund against Jensen. Should be interesting. I never would have believed this till I tried, one cap wow! This does get the mind to thinking???? |
Has anyone tried Maple Shades wires? Interesting ideas of thin wires. |
It seems like someone else has heard the magic of the vintage amps. Got the caps replaced and end of the magic.
So JohnK is it just "my tastes" or is their really something to foil caps. I already know the answer.
I am glad I have kept one all original EL84 Fisher to have as a reference for the Jensen vs. Duelund test because the cheap alternative is just the vintage amp but like many said on the other thread the vintage does have faults. Faults in dynamics but for sure not tone and aliveness. |
Sorry Sherod for the confusion.
No I was just posting a link of a guy who owned a vintage amp (who loved it) with foil caps got it back from being overhauled (no doubt with poly) and it lost the magic. I too found the same with my speakers. It was much harder than I thought to replace the vintage foil caps and get something as good or better. That is where Duelund came in. It was only then did I find a cap better in all ways. I had mentioned when I heard all foil (for the first time) from amps to speakers one would have to deaf not to realise there is something real about the sound.
In the amp I only have used foil caps, Duelund and Jensen. I had heard the same story as the link I have posted (changing to poly caps) so many times I did not even do it.
As Frederik said even Steen stayed with vintage caps till his own went in. (VSF) In that other thread that Atmashere said
"Most older paper coupling caps while not very good performers were in fact very nice sounding and are actually sought after for some of their qualities".
The gist of that thread was (to me) while replacing caps you get better low end freq less noise but can lose the "magic". Magic is hard to measure as opposed to S/N of which poly would excel.
We need a magic meter! (just kidding) Something that could measure how accurate the instrument sounded. |
Tpsonic
So that really does work thin wire? Hmmmm
Sherod
I do like the no plastic for sure. I am going to stick with Duelund though.
I see Jimmy has installed another set of CAST cap's. He is now so thrilled he is going to order the Silver CAST. At one time I would have thought it insane caps at that price.
He has also rewired with Duelund. I should get my butt in gear as the wire is just sitting here. I am ordering the second VSF but am scared to get the bug for more.
Jimmy is for sure right about the synergy of Duelund caps. (or good foil in general) As far as I know he had just one in the signal before and not in the speakers? |
Tpsonic
That sure goes against what we have been told. (thin wire)
I read lots of hostile thoughts on Maple Shade. (mostly from people who have not heard their products) A lot of what they say is for sure against the grain.
So I take it skin affect? (for the coherency)
Frank from Tempo Electric did say hearing is believing.
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Extremely interesting website on speaker design from Tannoy. Frank from Tempo is very big on the large vintage Tannoy's for the $.
http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy52.htm
What I have learned is that 3/4" Birtch plywood is thought to be one of the best for sound. I always wondered why the low freq tones sounded better from vintage Klipsch. I knew Paul Klipsch liked 3/4" Birch but did not know it to be popular with Tannoy as well. Audio Note use 3/4" Russian Birtch plywood. I also find out that drum makers go to great lengths to have a low glue to wood ratio. I guess MDF would be at the opposite end of the scale.
Vintage Tannoy lovers (as is Frank and Dr. Loesch) thought the vintage Alnico magnets special. Tannoy dropped AlNiCo at around the same time as Klipsch due to cost and supply of Colbalt.
I can say the vintage Tannoy's would be on a short list of speakers I would like to hear.
Tannoy used Auto Formers as did Klipsch and no Electrolytic's in the crossover.
As has been talked about before Tannoy says printed circuit boards are detrimental to sound quality.
So what speakers other than vintage Klipsch and Tannoy use Alnico magnets, no electrolytics, 3/4" Birch plywood, 15" woofers, foil in oil caps?
It is easy to see why cost would be incredible for large speakers right from construction to shipping to store footage space and foil caps.
My dealer always put Tannoy and vintage Klipsch people in the same group? I have only heard there cheaper models. |
Tpsonic
Something has occured to me that I never thought of. The North Creek inductor that I found to be a frustrating part as it had some good qualities but sounded hard. I thought the reason was resonance, is it? I wonder if now it was the skin affect? Frank from Tempo Electric said the original Duelund inductors did not sound that great. I believe he said they were wire as well? Hmmm? I will have to check back in this thread to see what Frank said. |
I just went to partsconnexions website and in the listing for Duelund wire the Silver is foil and the copper (which I have) is solid. Hmmmm might have to test that one out?
I just thought the difference was Copper and Silver. I was thinking I had copper caps why spend the money on silver wire? But the construction is totally different and maybe very noticable?
Might have to e-mail Duelund on this one as to how much different? |
Tpsonic
My speaker parts are done. (all Duelund VSF and CAST) I have Duelund WPIO inductors and they sound excellent. I just have to wire up permanent and might try some of that Silver foil hook up cable to compare against Duelund's Copper. (which is not installed yet either)
I have heard good stuff about Jantzen though. They were one part I was going to try for inductors as well, but compared North Creek to Duelund. |
Tom
Mine is a 10 guage and I do still have it and would have tried the material but have already bought the Duelund's inductors. Is this the same material Dgarrestson was using?
Just one question how did you measure your Q? You must have some serious testing equipment! Tom your testing equipment is for sure out of the league of mine. How did you do that?
I only sound tested the NC and did like some things about it but could not get past the high freq hardness and I did not understand/or expect that to be and issue on a low freq inductor. I assumed it was resonance but do not know if it was skin affect? |
With the Lp's I traded in part of my credit bought the Beatles Box set in Mono.
The set sounded awful at first. So I switched to the EL84 knowing that is what they recorded on. My opinion is the tapes are getting old. I do not hear any compression from the recording but my guess is the tapes are getting noisy from age.
I am not sure why the press thinks this set sounds good??? Even Micheal Fremer thinks they do?
I switched amps to check this along with the Duelund Silver wire.
The Beatles Mono set is noisy. A case were tape hiss reduction might be a good thing. Duelund Silver?
All this Duelund is making me fussy!
Sherod any word? |
