I read once on the net a guy joking about not taking apart a speaker because the inside (crossover) contained dragons.
In the beginning of this tests I kept two systems one a former top of the line Linn with all Linn gear right from the cartridge to pre amp amps IC's and speaker wire all Linn recomended. I thought even if they were not the best parts they should work well together?
It was good to have a reference. All the Duelund parts were tested with SS, tube amps, digital and analog to make sure the results were consistent.
I have since rid all of the linn gear except sources. So do not have two complete systems to test against each other. Only tube amps. It is nice to have a reference even if you are not keeping it.
George at North Creek said the Air core will make the Steel laminate core sound broken and he is right. I can not believe how different the two speakers sound. Even though he is right there is something not right about the big air core. Even though the old inductor sounds broken somehow it sounds better?
Both inductors sound as they look, oddly enough. The vintage constricted flow, dead with no resonance. The big NC much louder open but with a hard etched sound, which it is a big hard chunk of copper. |
Resonance and horns do not go well together. I can see why the CAST inductor was made for Burt's horn speakers.
Horns can sound really good and really bad depending on so many things and are very sensitive. I do not mean NC are not a good inductor either just not suited to horns. (IMO) |
Just ordered a Duelund WPIO inductor.
I just have to hear the difference. I would love the CAST only the $$$ are stopping me. The DCR is almost and exact match to original so no changes there.
I hated my CD player until I got tubes and Duelund caps. I thought the CD player was junk. I may even get rid of the LP12? Not sure on that yet.
So far all Duelund products have been fantastic.
Takes 3 or 4 weeks to get here. I have come this far might as well go all the way.
I hope Duelund starts to make Autoformers as that would be the last non Duelund part in the crossover. (except tweeter resonance trap that is in parallel)
I would then be all natural all plastic free in the crossover. Removing the speaker wire from plastic would be next cheapest thing to do. |
Undertow you might be right. That is why I kept several different amps and sources to test the first Duelund products.
Yes the inductor is on the woofer circuit. The Lascala's and Khorns are considered horn loaded woofers.
I do admit to testing one part vs. another and try on different sources and different amps. I did have modern to vintage SS to tubes.
I do take advice that is why I tried NC and do admit it reveals weakness. |
Undertow
From someone on the board. I checked into it and did exactly what Audioism said got just one cap.
06-08-08: Audioism
have you heard Duelund capacitor? You owe it to yourself to try or at least audition one. It's one of the best if not the best cap right now. CMIIW.
cheers |
Undertow
I have heard that about vintage. The voltage used to be much lower than today.
The vintage thing turned out to be kind of a fluke. I have never been into vintage. I am not sure I am even going to stay there.
When I was selling my speakers the guy turned up to buy my speakers with an old Fisher tube amp. I was kind of chuckling. He hooked it up with crappy (and I mean crappy) wire and my jaw hit the floor. Those speakers though not perfect were wayyyyy more real sounding than with my gear or my new gear with the new speakers. I had also heard some mega dollar new tube amps and systems and never really thought much of them. Nice but never felt like real people were in the room.
Really I was ticked right off. This $300 amp and and ratty speaker wire was kicking my systems ass. So I bought the amp and that is where I said I have to know what is going on?! One thing that system had by nature was virtually no plastic. All foil caps in the amp and speaker crossover. I knew it was flawed yet it still had some magic that the new gear did not.
That is where I had to find out what was going on part by part. Even that article I posted (from Linn) that claims that 50% of the signal is lost in the crossover. That is a mind boggling number when you think about it.
So I have went from a crossover (Linn speakers) of cheap electrolytics, cheap caps, cheap circuit board, cheap iron core inductor to this in the Klipsch.
I am coming to Steen's conclusion the crossover is an area of almost unlimited weakness but I have had to go through it part by part.
Which comes back to Duelund I hope you can make Autoformers? |
Face
The Autoformer is a step down voltage change as I understand? It is the first part that the signal runs through. The look of the part is very similiar to the woofer inductor. There are taps out of it to the different drivers.
http://www.critesspeakers.com/autotransformers.html |
In looking for SET amp info I stumbled across this site.
http://home.earthlink.net/~ivol/audio/other.htm
Still debating SET or EL84?
Of interesting note he thought the EL84 EICO fantastic. (for sure with NOS tubes) But more interesting he had the same speakers owned by Dennis Had of Cary Audio used in 89-'90 at the CES audio show. Showing off 300se mono blocks.
What is more interesting is
"Yet, I have to admit, they were immediately thrust to backup duty after 10 minutes with the vintage Klipsch Cornwalls"!
What I think the owner does not realise is he thinks it is all ALNiCo magnets or horns as did I. What I found out beyond a shadow of a doubt is it was the mosty the foil in oil capacitors. When Sonicaps went in the speakers sounded VERY cheap!
One of the coming tests I am going to do is ALNiCo tweeter vs. ferrite. I have both. I have always understood ALNiCo (known as the singing magnet) coveted by guiter guys the world over for tone, to be better. but I have never heard a direct comparison. The vintage Klipsch ALNiCo certainly go for much more $ used always a good indictator. |
Peter Qvortrup (Audio Note) rates amps on a 8 point from -2 to +6. He says a Class 0 Push Pull tube amp is the minimum anyone should have for recreating a live event.
He thinks the slide in quality started around 1965 to use cheaper parts.
He is not a fan of any SS calling them (semi conductor amps) half conductors.
In push pull he is a fan of EL84's which no problem with that statement but I have not heard level 3-6. That much better???
He also says a good test is low volume of sound. Which is interesting. I always said my SS system needed to be loud to sound good at all. Yet the big ass klipsch sound very alive at low volumes.
Audio Note is back to putting very little insulation in the boxes as well. My Linn speakers could not take anymore insulation.
Most of all what's with Denmark? I have not been there in 20 years and did not see all these high-end audio people?
http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_level_system.shtml |
Thanks Quoc
I will check into that. |
I am frustrated and confused.
This is not what I expected to find out.
The most important thing in an inductor is dampening. The vintage inductor hard as a rock with the wax paper dampening. Much smoother especially in the mid range.
I can not understand why only Duelund, Jensen and Jantzen that I can find do proper inductors? I think Jantzen uses a poly in there that rings alarm bells to me!
http://www.jantzen-audio.com/image/Wax%20Coil/About%20Wax%20Coil.pdf
The North Creek is coming out and vintage back in. The really the big test will be is Duelund WPIO better than a vintage inductor???
This will be the second time the fight will be with Duelund vs. vintage and not any new part.
I do hope Duelund wins as I will have wasted $$$.
The frustrating part of this rebuild is the poor qaulity of most of today's parts.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/inductor_solen12.html
That Solen inductor looks like wire wrapped around a toilet paper roll with some cheap ties!
I guess I know why old Klipschorns cost $4k (here in Canada) 30 years ago.
In today's parts you are looking at a Jensen (my best guess) for the woofer inductor to be the same as original. A Duelund Aluminum VSF for the mid range and 2 Duelund Aluminum VSF for the tweeters.
This crossover would cost around $1200 to $1500 to be the same or slightly better. My guess is even the Duelund Aluminum VSF tweeter caps are better. Bob Crites sells the crossovers (with poly caps) for $285 but you need to add about $1k for Duelund Aluminum foil in oil to get back to spec.
A new amplifier scares the crap out of me. It could be loaded with cheap plastic! Do new output trannies have a plastic bobbins?
Anyone ever dealt with Maple Shade? They give a 30 day money back guarantee.
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/tubegear_hub.php |
I see Tony has updated his site.
A couple noted changes Mundorf Supreme down to 9 from 10 (I think)
The Silver in Oil down to 10.5 (I thought 11)
Most importantly is the CAST is up 14! That is more like it. I thought the rating would be 15 when it came out as they are much better than even the VSF. (in noise reduction)
I would not be surprised to see Tony change the ratings again. Once you get a grasp on what these caps do. I suspect he is getting more synergy. Foil caps work better with more foil caps. |
I am looking into possible reasons why the vintage inductor sounds much smoother.
The NC inductor gives and takes away. Yes it has more (low end) detail but the down side is the noise factor. One of the biggest differences is the hard sound and how all the S's become SSSSSSS's. There is a hard ringing to the sound which becomes frustrating. Detail you know is there, but hard detail.
The vintage (wax paper) is more muted in sound but much smoother in the mid range. Much more musical.
I suspect resonance. One of the biggest surprises to me was the difference in resonance from the VSF to CAST. Astonishing is the best word. How the world's #1 cap could make the world's #2 cap seem noisy! I was shocked at how much noise was coming though from even a very, very good cap.
I suspect that is why the NC can not compete with a vintage wax paper inductor. There is no internal method to deal with this resonance. One wire just resonates against the other.
What I did not understand (until now) is that the woofer circuit is very critical. I thought all I was dealing was low freq. This is clearly not the case. The inductor resonates a high freq that comes through the woofer. The problem is the woofer is not designed for it.
The NC inductor removed all of the gain from the VSF and CAST capacitors gave in the mid range and tweeter.
The reason I am doing this part by part. One poly cap in the mid range and 80% of the Duelund tone was gone. Wrong inductor and you think you have problems with your mid and tweeter caps.
This I never suspected. If I had a hard noisy sound I would go after the tweeter caps as the culprit. I am shocked it could very well be the woofer inductor.
Tony really needs to do inductor reviews of this critical part.
I wish I had ordered the Duelund CAST inductor when I got my Duelund caps. Back then you did not have to give your right arm for the CAST inductor.
I think I have a grasp on what that inductor would mean and it is not all about the bass. |
Checking on whether to get new amp or not. I am very much leaning to just fixing up the EL84's I have and maybe buying a vintage SET down the road. New amps (unless you spend a ton of money) will likely be loaded with plastic. Something I very much want out not in!
There are so many areas that concern me in a new amp?
Output transformers? What is the insulation material? Is there any plastic?
Plastic bobbins?
From a Audio Note article on output transformers.
"We have therefore experimented with every man-made plastic insulating material available, but in the end we found that the best sounding material is a special type of paper. Paper is a natural material, and although subject to variations as are all such natural materials, it is more conducive to creating a natural sound. As with all Audio Note™ products the ear was the final arbiter as to which material was to be used".
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/trans_output.html
I also have concerns about the small value capacitors.
Steen was a fan of the old fashioned Mica ones. What are used today in modern amps? |
I have just ordered a Jensen Paper (630v) in tube copper cap and a Duelund VSF cap for coupling caps for the amps.
I am just want to see how they compare to the vintage ones. I have really wondered about the SET craze. I do believe people on the purity of sound. I have heard with my own ears what a plastic cap can do.
I just do not know if SET is that much better or the lack of plastic caps? I sure do not hear anything but slight congestion with these amps and lack of ability when the going gets tough to sort out. But very good tonality.
I e-mailed Tony to ask him to do inductor reviews. He did agree though that it is an area of not enough attention. |
Expectations of couling caps.
The vintage ERO FOL II's .022 are very tiny. They are just one half inch long and 1/4" in diameter.
The Jensens are .7" in diameter and 1.5" long.
Using pie x R2 the volume is in metric.
So 3.14 x 3mm2 x 12.7 359 cubic mm. Vintage
Jensen 3.14 x 9.5mm2 x 38mm 10767 cubic mm Jensen
So the Jensen is 30x larger in volume. The Duelund is about 10x bigger.
I know some guys do not believe the size of the cap matters. This has NOT been my experience. I expect the Jensen's and Duelund's to be much more dynamic. I also expect both to be much quieter. Even on the better vintage amps like the Fisher pre amps the size of the caps get bigger.
I am hoping for the kind of change I got from changing the tweeter caps from vintage to Duelund.
I have been doing much reading and am going against the SET route. (for now) My gut tells me much of the benefit of SET is less coupling caps. It is a given that the less amount of coupling caps the better the sound especially the poly cap kind.
Stereophile review on the EL 84 EICO
"Toss in a full restoration, and for well under $2000, the HF-81 can beat the pants off many amps and shame the SETs at their own game. I unconditionally recommend that you find an EICO HF-81, restore it, and hear for yourself what the fuss is all about". (END OF REVIEW)
I also read another review that the reviewer who was reviewing and Audio Note SET and said it was not as good as a Leak vintage tube amp.
So I do not want to give up the bass.
I think/expect a Duelund coupled vintage tube amp with no plastic and Duelund's top notch caps will sound fantastic. |
Face looking forward to what you have to say. I find the VSF is getting lost here. It is after all Tony Gee's #2 cap in the world. I am finding out that (to me) resonance is much more of a factor than I ever imagined.
Sherod VSF was LESS money than Mundorf? I have not heard the Silver/Gold/Oil but can say that VSF is money well spent over Silver/Oil.
I am just waiting on coupling caps and inductor. Excited about both and am looking at CAST for critical areas as coupling caps like the phono stage. I just need to know what Duelund can do in a amp before spending that kind of money. I am starting with low voltage VSF before blowing the wad on CAST. My feeling is a lot of Duelund (either one) is better than a few CAST caps. (of course that is just a feeling) |
Face I do think the CAST take longer to break in than VSF. I found them a little tight for awhile. (couple of weeks)
Undertow I read in another thread that you changed coupling caps in the phono stage to great affect. I am very eager to try this as I expect that a simple tube phono stage that the coupling caps will be of huge importance. I have been reading the Clarity cap (white paper) and they (as Dave had mentioned) as well (as Duelund) think resonance to be of huge importance. The cost is much less for Clarity but are not available in values I can test in electronics. .047uf is the largest in the amp. Do they make smaller? What about tonality though? The clarity cap may address resonance but tone?
I have to totally agree with what they say on 5-25khz resonance. I also agree with what they say on preference for resonance. At first when I would have friends listen to the the high resonance vintage foil caps vs. Duelund VSF some liked that resonance at first. Then after about 30 minutes they completely switched to low resonance Duleund. But I could imagine just as Clarity's white indicated some people may prefer the high resonance. The ones who did prefer high resonance (at first) were guys who like hard rock music and had an idea of how a rock concert sounded. (very poor)
Now Undertow with you not being over joyed with Duelund's strength, tone? Sorry I can not remember are you running SS? and is there poly caps in the amp? meaning is the Duelund in the crossover the first foil cap in the system? I can understand other caps being more dynamic quieter etc. but that Duelund tonality for me I would not want be without. I do agree with you if you have poly caps in the amp though as when I had the SS amp here I found Deulund better in tone but not worth the $. I thought about 20% tone improvement of what came from the all foil amp. What surprised me more was that Frederik did not disagree with this? Mighty big of him.
I do expect that what Clarity said about capacitors ALL resonating at 5-25khz is right as well with inductors. That is exactly where the NC inductor gives off noise. Every time I start with that speaker I am impressed with detail but end up switching back to the one with the vintage inductor. (wax paper)
Looking forward to Duelund's WPIO inductor. Should be here soon right guys? I hope/expect it to be quieter in the high freq as it is no doubt will resonate less than the vintage wax paper inductor.
I am waiting on Jimmy's Junkyard test. |
Duelund have your caps been used by any recording studios?
I really would like to buy recordings that were done on all tube gear and plastic free foil caps. It is one thing to have your system plastic free but that of course is only half the equation. I am finding out more all the time old tube foil cap recordings are much better. Now tube and high quality Duelund foil cap I bet would be fantastic!
Tempo Electric has changed their ratings based on what has been said here by many of us. I for one think Tony's ratings as a number would be good if ALL caps were adjusted downward. Duelund CAST moves down to 10/10 (instead of 14) and all others dropped as well with a VSF being 9 Mundorf Supreme say being 5 or 6 out of 10 and a Solen being like a 2 or 3. To me this might not be politically correct but very accurate. When I first read Tony's review I did not know why I would want more than 10/10? Could I even hear it? Then I was shocked to hear indeed a very big difference from #1 and #2. (both very good but a clear difference)
I am going to e-mail Tempo to stand firm. To me sites like Tempo and Tony's and Arthur's have helped Audio a great deal. The ad based magazines love everything. (I know they know where the money comes from) I was at Chapters the other day looking at Audio mags. They are a waste of time. I would not buy speakers now without knowing what the crossover parts were.
Would it not be great if Audio mags said stuff like
Company X has dropped product X and went to product Y to fatten the bottom line. etc.
The last 50 years of Audio would all be about lowering the cost of production. |
Hi Sherod
When I started this thread it was nothing to do with recognition. Private sites are my source now for info. I hope that when people read this thread they get an idea of what the parts mean on a realative basis. For me the idea that caps are "passive" part therefore not as important as active part will never be the same.
I wish there were more guys running all foil systems. I would love to what they thought Duelund start to end. I can not deny that a V-Cap in the electronics is not enticing at 1/8th the cost of Duelund CAST. The problem is so far the only part that has blown my socks off has been Duelund and now I am getting spoiled. This is where the Jensen copper tube comes in to lower cost but still stay plastic free. I am eagerly awaiting Jimmy's findings. |
Got back the EL84 with the partial new power supply.
The sound of this amp was horrible!
Ended the experiment within 15 minutes and will see what the problem is. It might be a poor quality tube. Work done was ASC power supply caps a Silcon rectifier some resistors changed and some caps put in.
I suspect and my hearing is getting very accurate on this that a poly cap was put in and not even a good one. If you want to kill the tone of a vintage amp just put in a poly cap. My tech guy said a couple of caps. I can not believe how far off the mark this amp is, not even close to original spec Fisher. I will be taking off the bottom plate to see. As fast as snapping your fingers you can tell something is not right with this amp. The first thing you notice is things sound fake. There is also a dead sound.
There has been much made of the movement back to tubes. I think (becoming more convinced every day) that the other side of that equation and just as important as tube sound is the foil cap sound.
Foil works best when it is complete no poly anywhere. I was shocked how changing one cap in speakers changed everything and it was Mundorf Supreme. (not a bad cap) |
Sorry Dave
It is the hum that concerns we as well. I will not put in the needed break in time. So that amp is going to be taken back or shelved. My other Fisher EL84 sounds fabulous except for phono stage. (too noisy)
I talked to Parts Connexion on Friday and am getting a quote from Frederik on two .022uf VSF caps. (not normal value)
I have attached a link to very good balanced article on Audio history.
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/tinyhistory2.html
"The same month, I went to the second Oregon Triode Society meeting, and one of the members brought a rusty old Dynaco Stereo 70 that first saw the light of day when Dwight D. Eisenhower was President. The sum total of his "tweaks" was to convert the EL34's to triode (cut and tape two wires), and replace two coupling caps. About 2 hours with a soldering iron. We're not talking aerospace engineering here.
The OTS guy turned it on, and we compared the Stereo 70 to everything in the dealer's showroom. It was plainly superior not only to any transistor amp in there, it wiped out the latest $3000 Audio Research all-tube confection that had received a glowing review in the latest Stereophile". |
Well guys I think we guessed Jimmy's findings quite accurate.
Duelund excels at all qualities except price! I was glad to see the Jensen Copper paper tube types do so well that I can use them in less critical locations. I just simply cannot afford to put $3k+ in caps into a $500 amp!
It was kind of what I thought with the Teflons which I am sure are great in many systems but I do not think would work for me. Horns need warmth. Now maybe one pair of Teflons, not sure? (for their detail) |
Just bought Rubber Soul on new remastered CD and am doing the burn in that way. It sounds terrible! Why do they keep doing this to music? Turn up all the instruments full blast and that's better, right? Clearly mixed for the video game. |
Hotroady
Here is the quote from Steen and the link. I think he is clear on physical size and for sure I agree. It is also very easy to see why the idea is made fun of. ($$$ for big caps)
"An inductor coil MUST have low, very low resistance and capacitance — meaning that it by higher values will be heavy measured in kilograms of copper/silver and of the single layer band type.
Only if a resistor is in series with the inductor and no capacitor to ground between, this resistance can be built into the coil and a lot of copper/silver is spared.
The capacitors must act in the same manner with extremely low resistance meaning lots of conductive material. Again they will be larger and heavier, not much to do about that. Of course it goes for this part too, that a resistance can be built in as also inductance but then the free use of the part is heavily reduced.
From the great variety of types - stick to stack foils or variations on that theme if you can find them without plastics. The good old Micas works wonderfully well but they are far too expensive for greater values. Go for older types following the simple rule that bigger is better".
http://www.meta-gizmo.net/Tri/speak/STEEN.html |
DGarretson
In that article it talked about it not being very hard to take an amp to triode mode. Have you ever done that?
I find the part 1 even more interesting and did not know that SET had really never been heard by many until it's revivial with good source material. I never really thought about it? Another was the 300b was never released to the public?
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/tinyhistory1.html |
Hotroady
It is just my personal opinion but I think you are right to stick to copper foils for your amp of some kind. I read many stories of vintage amps going to poly of which Mundorf is and losing the tone. My own experience is you do best by bettering the same kind of part but of better quality. Meaning your amp was voiced on foil caps. Mundorf would be better than a lower grade poly if that was what was in an amp.
Now what is better about that famous amp you have? Different tubes, better caps?
I did just check out the Ampohms and it is quite interesting and for me I am not surprised they sound tonally better than Mundorf Silver in Oil. It is also interesting on the thread you posted I have read JonL thread before. The price sure is right. I just wonder about resonance? That is the downfall to foil caps keeping them from resonating. |
Hotroady
I see another guy just got some Duelund VSF's. It will be interesting to see what he thinks. For me I know they are expensive but I have a bunch of other parts (that were not cheap) and were not better in every way than the vintage parts. Duelund is. I have no nostagia when using them!
Duelund you really need to get these caps into the recording studio. I am serious on this. We will for sure enter a new and even better "Golden Age" of recording than from the early '50's to mid '60's.
Jensen's new copper paper tube is interesting (for lower cost operation than Duelund) and I have one coming. I expect them to be better rated than the old Jensen's.
I am eager to hear what Jimmy finds out. I bet it is and I could look very silly in this prediction.
1. Duelund CAST (he will say a little tight when first new but extremely low resonance and very natural)
2. A close race from the Teflon and Jensen (paper tube type) (bet he says Teflon has a signature)
4. Mundorf Silver Gold Oil
5. Old Jensen as tonally rich but too noisy in comparison to these other fine caps.
What do you guys think something like that? |
Hi Joseph
I would like to say thanks very much for your site as it deals with a very important (to audio nuts) issue of the quality of passive parts.
I assume once someone is going to your site they understand that passive parts do matter and one can easily hear the difference.
This is were the tough part comes in. My two main sources of info were your site and Tony Gee's both excellent. I actually found your (wording and description) to more accurate (or to my ear IMO) in the the caps I heard. Your description was very good on Duelund VSF vs. Mundorf Supreme. Cost 6x as much but might be 2-3x better. I also agreed with you on the Silver in Oil as I thought it tilted the sound upward and left a signature on the sound which might be Ok if one was trying to do that? IMO I agree with your site, get the Supreme unless you are willing to spend the extra for Duelund. But if keeping the speakers Duelund well worth it. Good wording again and even as a Duelund fan I would not put them into a set of speakers I did not already really like and plan to keep.
Another tough part how does spending money on caps rate compared to all the other areas of ones system that could be improved and this will always be tough as you can not know what ones system is or how much they think the improvement is worth. As Dgarretson had mentioned long ago on the need for balance. I agree with him in principal except I believe the crossover is a area of MASSIVE weakness is most systems. (the after thought to most speaker companines)
When I had my Linn speakers I used $1k (here in Canada) worth of tri-wire (speaker wire) all hooked to a $2 tweeter capacitor and this IMO is a complete waste of money! Moving to $20 Mundorf Supreme tweeter cap would have been vastly better money spent. A bigger improvment for a fraction of the $. I suspect this pattern to be very wide spread. I would say 99.9% of people have NOT overspent on their crossover.
In Tony's site he rates 48 different caps. He gives 12 (was 13 before the downgrade to Mundorf Supreme)(or 25%) of the total a 10/10 or above. To me I found this confusing? I did not know why I would want better than a 10/10 cap? I thought they all must be awesome compared to what I had as they were all better than 10/10. Would I even hear the difference?
When I could hear the difference so easily from Duelund VSF to CAST I was shocked! My VSF was rated 12.5/10 wayyyy beyond perfect? I wish Tony would rate his top cap a 10/10 and downgrade all else from there. If Tony had a Duelund CAST at 10 a Mundorf Supreme at 6 and a Solen Fast Cap at 3 or so this would be very accurate to the reader. If I have 3's in my crossover (which I know signals failure grade) going to a Mundorf Supreme at 6 would be a significant step up which in my opinion it is and likely very good bang for the $ for almost anyone in any value of speaker.
As much as we (on this thread) are flattered that you changed the rating based on this thread I personally think your old ratings were better.
I admit to not ordering Tier D Jensen's based on your rating but this is not a bad thing thing. You likely have saved me money. Passive parts can be fantastic bang for the $ but it can get quite expensive to make sideways movements. I have come to the conclusion I am either have good hearing or am very fussy and your Tier A (maybe B) (old rating) is all I am looking at.
Joesph from your site and your accurate description's is why I ordered ASC power supply caps as I wanted to hear what does a power supply do and what is it's relative value compared to crossover parts? (not yet done with this one as there were other issues)
I say stick to your guns and keep the old ratings. Let the cookies crumble were they may. Maybe it was your rating that forced Jensen into a new cap? A person not really in to this will be Ok anyway with Tier D. The letter grade will not upset them. A person who does care will get a false sense with Mundorf Supreme being rated Tier AA when it is a good cap but Tier B sounds much more realistic.
More than you raising your ratings I really hope Tony lowers his ratings to only one cap being 10/10 after all there can only be one best anything setting the standard. |
Hi Joe
I will give you the long and short of the thread to keep you from reading so much.
Thread starts off I was selling a set of vintage Klipsch Lascala's (Alnico magnet foil cap vintage)
When selling a guy who was buying them showed up with a vintage Fisher tube amp (untouched) It did not sound all great, yet I was VERY intrigued. This was the basic system that is very common in the U.S. a set of Khorns and vintage tube amp. It sounded much more real than my S.S. gear. It sounded more real than the very expensive tube amps and speakers I have heard.
So a bought the tube amp and did a rebuild of the tired crossover of the Klipsch. (to stunning results I might add)
Started off with Sonicaps. Then Mundorf Supreme's and then Silver in Oil. Then I tried Duelund VSF and they were distinctly different. Very natural and real sounding. Then CAST, same sound but MUCH less noise. I go on to note their is MUCH more resonance in caps than I would have ever thought. (even from VSF to CAST it was hard to comprehend)
The thread goes on with me commenting on how the poly caps ALL had a distinctly plastic sound. I then find out Steen Duelund had said the same thing. (hence the reason for his wonderful caps)
I had noted that even one poly cap in the crossover and the sound changed to plastic. Also noted that I could not listen to one speaker that was foil caps and one that was poly at the same time. It was almost like the speaker's were out of phase.
Frederik (from Duelund) could not say for sure but thought that plastic caused a static build-up?
I could mix and match Duelund and vintage foil caps no problem but not put in a poly cap.
I feel that no plastic is the way to go. Steen Duelund also likes Mica caps. This is what is in the vintage for small values. So I decide to just recap the Fisher.
Others on here have posted that they really like the Clarity MR cap and some think it just as good or better in some ways to Duelund VSF.
I had noted that when mixing Duelund and other poly caps in the crossover you do not get the full Duelund (effect) of tonality. I also noted that same effect when using S.S. and Duelund, better tonality but not the same as when using all foil in the tube amp. (meaning there seems to be a foil synergy)
Others noted that Duelund CAST Silver was even better albeit at a very expensive price.
Then the thread goes on to try inductors. I have only tried North Creek 10 guage but have Duelund WPIO being made.
The North Creek is not a bad inductor more open sounding than the wax paper steel laminate vintage inductor but the North Creek has a hard sound and can ring? High freq hardness. I am sure much better than most inductors.
So Joe that will save you much time.
Now what are your feelings?
How do you feel on plastic? Is it evil? (as far as tone)
I noted that all poly caps are much quieter than vintage foil caps even if the poly caps have poor tone.
Do the Teflon caps have the same static build up?
Phono stage is poor in the Fisher's and maybe all vintage amps. I feel maybe because the foil coupling caps are poor (meaning far too noisy) as the vintage foil in the Klipsch were wayyyyyy too noisy.
So that is where it is. I am thrilled with the line stage and can not believe how real it sounds and am putting in coupling caps in the phono stage.
I would like to go with lower resonating foil caps (sticking to the no plastic theme) but this of course is very costly. |
Thanks Joe
That was excellent!
It is those very Teflons that I am looking at. The cost is much less on low value for electronics. 1/5 VSF and 1/10th that of CAST. This of course is a factor as I am keeping the speakers but am not sure about the amp.
As far as for inductors would not foil resonate much more than wire if the insulation and structure could not hold the foil dead still?
Duelund did a wire wound Iron core? I did not know that? Right out of the play book of vintage?
Now as far as your partner prefering foil caps. This has been my arguement he may have prefered an oil cap but on an individual cap test you get not much of the oil benefit?
By this I mean he might like the oil caps (in a full circuit) yet if they were tested as a one part in a not all oil cap circuit you get the noise of foil in oil (which is higher) but not the tonal benefit. Where the oil caps tested in a all oil circuit?
"I can't say that plastic, per se, has a sound that we can personally distinguish as plastic".
Steen did feel that he could hear plastic in the cap? If I remember reading correctly.
"For example, tubed phono tends to sound better than solid state, but there's a trade-off in the form of tube noise".
I am glad to hear this at least is the norm. Hopefully a cap change will solve that for me?
I am glad to see that you have a wide time span and recognize some of the vintage bargains. One of the best things to happen to Audio is the internet. I often wonder if SET movement has not been aided by the internet. Only in a non commercial enviroment can one find out that vintage Tannoy's can compete with speakers costing 50k. |
Thanks again Joe
I will not even attempt to try triode then in the EL84.
I am glad you cleared that up on cap size mattering as well as I did take some ridicule on cap size not meaning anything as long as the value was right.
This makes me excited then on the coming Jensen Copper paper tube and Duelund VSF caps I have coming as they are 10x+ the original size and of a better metal (copper) as opposed to Aluminum or tin that the originals were. In my opinion there is really nothing good about a vintage capacitor except maybe it was of the right type. (tone wise)
As a complete amatuer at doing this stuff for my own enjoyment with not so much care about cost/benefit as commercial companies. This is clearly NOT something I would want to do as a job! As a audio perfectionist just trying to make something as good as possible with the cheapest parts possible and guess what the customer would hear/pay for would drive me nuts. A tough, tough job.
I understand why most commerical grade speakers like Steen said are all about the beauty of the box. It is the one area that new speakers can blow away the vintage speakers. Vintage speakers are available used at likely 10 cents on the dollar compared to new.
I am glad I am on the right path with doing the changes part by part. I am really done the speakers just waiting for the Duelund inductor then just wire up.
The amp I expect to be a mix of Jensen (paper tube) Duelund and maybe V-Cap Teflon. Then that will be done and to be honest I hope never to do this again in my life!
I have learned a lot, mostly parts quality really matters. People who do high end Audio work with all that listening and testing really earn their money.
|
I installed one of the Jensen's copper tube types into the phono stage.
The first minute it sounds terrible! For sure the vintage sounds MUCH better compared to the out of the box Jensen.
Once again I am very shocked at how different one cap sounds from another? This time in electronics. I know it is break in time but I am very surprised the Jensen did not sound better than the vintage right out of the box?
I am very glad to do this one cap at a time. Treble is cut right back. The Jensen is a tight, very tight sound right out of the box. Similiar to CAST? Just kidding Frederik as I know this is sensitive issue this confusing Jensen and Duelund.
This is going to be a very interesting break in I think.
I think the Jensen is going to cure the poor dynamics of the vintage phono stage as it IS already more dynamic. |
I have often tried to describe what the Duelund caps do? They turn random sounds into instruments and clear sounds and real sounds at that.
The Duelund caps have made it quite easy to pick out how the music was recorded tubes or SS as well.
The other day listening to Miles Davis the drums don't just sound like drums but like a real SET of drums (at life size) over there in the corner. (I mean freaky real) My daughter has said "I am afraid to go in the basement Dad as I expect to walk around the corner and see people there!"
When listening to the White album tonight the song "I Will" I could not figure out what this one instrument was? So I had to turn the computer back on. I was frustrated what the heck was that? I find out it was Paul dum dumming the bass line.
http://www.upv.es/~ecabrera/white.html
One thing as a former Linnie is that Linn people believe Linn gear gives you a feel of a band playing together. I have to admit with the Duelund/tube amp the music will sound very accurate and real as instruments in space but not sense of everyone in the room together? I am not sure why I ever thought it was a band playing together as of course the music unless live is often laid down in tracks. Paul plays every instument on some of those songs so how could it sound like a band playing together? So if Linn makes it sound like a band playing together than that is just false. So all this clearness has changed my impression of songs. Where I once thought it was John singing and Paul on back-up (this being in my mind) you can clearly hear it is John on lead and John on back up.
This does not take away from the enjoyment you just are more aware that it was done in a studio. |
I agree totally Face. Like I had said in post when I first got the CAST there was so much difference I was almost confused.
After hearing the CAST (2 caps) vs. VSF (2 caps) in the tweeter caps in one speaker vs. the other I would consider upgrading to all CAST. (right now I am CAST to VSF) (which seems to work best)
That high pressure they use on CAST is surprising how much difference.
I just do not know is that same kind of difference apply to electronics with caps? That is why I have Jensen and VSF coming. If I get the amp to exactly what I expect to happen with caps I am looking at CAST for the critical locations and VSF and Jensen's (Copper tube) in the less critical.
Frederik can you give a hint where that would be? I expect the cap at the phono section? and pre amp? |
I wonder what is taking Jimmy so long? Is it the Teflon caps? He must be wayyyy over 200 hours by now.
That is the only thing I can thing of as the CAST vs. VSF was instant noticable change of the CAST. They do need time as they are somewhat tight at first. I also wonder how much of that is ones ear getting used to super low resonance? I went up to my tweeter several times in shock. You could hear the highs but none of the high freq noise and this was compared to VSF!
Joe when you do test the CAST I think you will be shocked. What I thought (before CAST) was electronic noise was tweeter cap noise. |
Thanks Xneakers
I was not to concerned with the first few hours but it is really shocking how bad caps can sound at first. I am hoping the Jensen works out well for me as well until I can afford to replace with Duelund's.
I wish Jimmy had put the VSF in his test.
So far the Jensen is very tight and not very natural sounding (no air or top end) but does make the vintage phono stage sound very modern. So all in all I am excited as I think a vintage weaknness is that phono stage cap.
I think I understand why the vintage pre amps like Fisher CX400II's go for such big $. They have MUCH larger caps than say the int.. So this was known many years ago. Now will a int. amp sound great with much bigger caps? I hope so. |
At around 5-7 hours now and I took out the North Creek inductor so each speaker is exactly the same as the Jensen was starting approach the sound quality of the vintage cap. Which is much better than when it went in!
Vintage still has the edge in tonality at this point but sounds flat. The Jensen Copper paper tube is getting much better, Jensen sounds quieter and more dynamic and now smoother as well. At this pace it should not take long to be better in every regard than the vintage.
That will make more confident to contemplate spending Duelund kind of money on a vintage amp. To be honest I did not know if the phono stage was fundementaly flawed or just a poor cap? |
Now at around 10+ hours.
When the Duelund went in the speakers it was not many hours and I was shocked at how easy it was to pick out every instrument.
I can't say that is happening with the Jensen. (as far as new tonality) I can say (but Jimmy already did) is that that cap has great swing! I am already listening almost exclusively to the speaker with the Jensen.
The musical message is much better than the vintage now. This is an enjoyable cap to listen too.
I will be installing another as the pre-amp coupling cap.
As always I like to leave one signal original and change part by part.
I will be interesting to see where Tempo puts this cap. IMO it is better than a Mundorf Supreme. (I have not put Mundorf into electronics)
I am excited to see if the Duelund adds tonality in electronics like they do in the crossover.
Speaking of that Frederik is that cap and inductor coming? |
Face
Have you tried this new Jensen?
We may have a new #3 cap in the world? CAST, VSF and then Jensen Copper Paper Tube? It will be interesting where Tony puts this cap but it is going to be very high!
I sure concur with Jimmy's affection for this cap.
I have ordered a few more for later this week when the Duelund inductor comes in. |
Phildsp
That is one thing we all have to do is figure the best bang for our $. I think there is a lot more info out on this subject (of caps and I think them huge) then there was even a couple of years ago.
It can also be cheaper and better to change the caps in speakers or electronics rather than constant new gear, if you can figure out what does what. |
I have often heard the difference from vintage to modern tube amps is the freq extreme's.
I think that goes directly to the vintage caps. They are VERY heavy in the midrange with very little bottom or top end. Some call that more natural. To me it is very lacking on the phono stage for sure. The tricky part is keeping something alive sounding while being full freq.
In Clarity's excellent White paper on caps they did say that 30% of people do like high resonating caps. What this says is that as shocking as it is 30% like "cheap" caps.
Whether it is V-Cap, Mundorf, Clarity or Duelund no one calls them high resonating caps. That is really amazing really. That means 30% would prefer a $1 cap over a $1k cap!
When doing my own tests, for 30 minutes people would pick the vintage caps over the Duelund's in the speakers then after 30 minutes they thought something was broken in the vintage. There must be something that we are either used too or naturally think is good with resonance?
We want the detail but do not want the sound to go thin or dead.
Another side benefit of the Duelund's has been it is obvious and painfully obvious on which LP's are worn. You are not guessing what is wrong. |
Jimmy has done it again.
I think he wanted to make sure the Duelund was worth the extra cost over the Jensen.
Once I am done figuring out which coupling cap matters most, I expect phono stage tube cap but do not know maybe a CAST cap there? I can say that would be before any turntable or cartridge upgrades. |
The Duelund WPIO inductor is here.
As with all Duelund products it has a smell that makes you feel you could eat it.
It has a similiar look as the vintage inductor (meaning wax paper type) except again clearly better made. The vintage wires (and is not a foil) are not held so tight. Clearly Duelund looks like a quality product. Duelund is just one hard chunk. Looks different than the pics too guys? The whole inductor is sealed like CAST?
The first 15 minutes are VERY good. Again Duelund sounds excellent right out of the box. Duelund has been the only product that is better than vintage in EVERY way and once again EVERYTIME.
The North Creek inductor was better in some ways but not in others. (ringing)
I took a big risk (for me) on this inductor. I knew the caps were worn out an inductor of course does not wear so the change from Duelund from vinage would have to be all in quality of part.
The sound is much more open than the vintage that while it does not ring is somewhat dead and muffled. How Duelund does this I do not know? The sound is alive.
Duelund keep stunning balance.
I have more Jensen Copper paper tube caps here and will do one signal in them. So far they are pretty good but even the Jensens which are better than the vintage in the phono stage but the vintage does sound more alive? Jensen nice from top to bottom but so far not liquid alive sound like Duelund parts?
I will see if that is a Jensen trait?
Maybe I am gettin too picky? Like Jimmy says once you hear Duelund nothing else seems to cut it.
Right now the test is with no Jensen caps in the signal just off the CD.
One Duelund trait not many mention is they make your best and worst CD sound better. To me this is very important as who cares if just your best sounds better.
I will get to do a full comparison in the next few days after the inductor is broke in. I will do a Duelund/North Creek as well. |
Nice Irish65
I would expect with Duelund tradition you will notice a difference.
You never really could say what you thought the difference was in Duelund vs. North Creek in inductors. To me the NC is good down low but hardens the sound.
I am going to keep the North Creek until my whole signal chain is at least Jensen Copper Tube type. I want to be exactly sure and fair to North Creek. One thing is with out a doubt Duelund is very unique (to me) and not one of those parts that reveal weakness in your system. They seem to go with the flow.
Both the North Creek and Deulund both reveal that the vintage 28 (or something like that) guage inductor is really choking off a lot of signal. Which of course only makes sense. The North Creek let you know you had problems upstream. There was more there and more problems. Duelund to me is so unique that things sound much better without screaming problems elsewhere.
I have more Jensens to install this afternoon. The Duelund coupling cap and more Jensen's are on back order and will be in later in the month. I suspect it will be a full Duelund signal path when I am done. |
Thanks Irish65 on the Duelund inductor.
I know you hold the North Creek in high regard as well as Duelund. I now have a North Creek and Duelund WPIO in each speaker. I for sure do not want to diss North Creek in anyway. I will hold all comments back on the this till all caps are replaced in the amp. I expect this to be fairly close between the both when working with new caps in the amps.
For ones (like me) working on a limited budget and looking for best bang for the buck. Money spent so far for best bang.
1. Duelund VSF in the tweeters over anything else (for sure vintage!)
2. Phono stage coupling caps (Jensen Copper paper tube over vintage) Big improvement for small $.
3. CAST tweeter caps over VSF. Still a big jump even at this level.
I know have put another Jensen cap in from pre-amp to output tubes. Not as big a jump as the phono cap replacement. But still breaking in. But there are two caps in that path. |
Sorry guys I did not mean to stop the resistor talk. |
I will be installing the 3rd Jensen in the one signal path.
So far the two Jensens have increaed dynamics reduced noise made the sound quicker. They do not have a plastic sound like poly caps to me but yet the sound is more like HiFi. But that I mean I am completely aware I am listening to a stereo?
How I ended up with a vintage amp (and I have heard some very expensive new gear) was I was very curious how they can sound very real? Warts yes but alive.
So far only Deulund (in the speakers) seems to capture the magic aliveness of vintage with the advantages of modern. For me that is priority #1 is I do not want to feel I am listening to a stereo.
It is still very early in the Jensen break in and they can still come alive. I can see why Steen started with Jensen caps though not major faults. |
Frederik
You once said that Steen used (for coupling caps)
"Prior to his own designs, he used vintage designs such as paper in oils, and wax/paper types".
I have the two Jensens in the linestage and the sound is VERY similiar to vintage caps. I can see why so many have used Jensen as replacement for vintage caps.
The one thing they are not yet as good is the midrange reality. Voices are not yet as real as vintage and I am aware of listening to a stereo.
I find if the midrange/voices are not "alive" sounding nothing else matters in the sense of wanting to recreate live sound. You will always be aware of the sound coming from speakers.
It is still very early and the Jensen are getting better. In most ways they are already better but not in this one critical area. |
My ears are just recovering from Rubber Soul. I forgot how bad some recordings (compression and loudness) can be.
Closing in on 100 hours for the Jensen's and decent break in for the Duelund WPIO. I will change back to the EL84 so that the signal is identical this weekend to compare directly to the North Creek. |
