Hi Malcolm,
You're right about generalizations. And my second sentence in the 2nd paragraph above should have contained wording that DF's experiment and conclusions were delivered as a postulation.
The whole field of plinthing is subject to asking if we'll ever really "be sure" about anything in this realm which has some definablly good empiricism and that will be trusted by all of the people all of the time.
But we might also be wary of accepting results of driven high-end marketers that, as a group, sometimes throw smokeballs our way.
There are no true experts in this new geologic/plinth field. As for Mosin's place in this discussion, it seems to me that objectivity is the first victim in the avenger's heart. This is not about truth, justice and the scientific way. He carries a perception of being slighted by JN ions ago. I got in the middle of that once - not this time.
- Mario |
Received an e-mail this morning from Mosin. While it is not my practice to “out” people’s private communications to me, I trust that he won’t see it as an ethical breech to state he’s taken exception to my characterizing him as an “avenger” along with its implied objectivity sacrifice. I tend not to publicly characterize a person’s stumbles unless prepared to acknowledge tendencies to fall short along those same lines myself. When emotional buttons get pushed, objectivity can be separated from my person just as easily as cash from my wallet at a vintage audio swap meet. I certainly bear Winn no ill will. Despite the lengths we go to make our individual human condition appear orderly and rational, in the end, we’re all floundering about in this life. If you have any doubt on this, just cast a brief glance at our world affairs and the people we choose to run it.
But does that mean we should shrug off the task in attempting to maintain or gain orderliness and civility in the conduct of these mini affairs in human events? Wouldn’t that just be some sop toward “keeping up appearances”? Perhaps, but I’m an old dog in terms interpersonal dealings and not prepared to jettison the “old tricks” in trying to get along.
It is very obvious that the “Home Despot II” thread has become a shell of its former existence. As stated earlier, this is due, in large part, to the ascendency of Lenco Lovers with all that sites inherent advantages. But I also believe that a large part of this withering has come about because potential posters have become “gun shy” because of the historical pyro-technics here.
So as I see it, those who would like to “bring down the mighty” (and we all know how tempting an impulse that is for many) for whatever reason, to some extent have succeeded. There have been periodic forays onto this thread by posters whose sole want, seemingly, is to take it and Jean Nantais down. Sometimes this is done crudely and overtly, sometimes it is attempted with sophisticated cloaking.
There’s no real recourse of moderation of this thread, outside of the posters that decide to join in. My attempts at moderation have often left me often in the middle, open to being perceived as a “suck up” by one side or a Judas by the other. I have no problem dealing with that as a residual dessert here.
It does seem on the question of the future direction of this thread, if indeed it is to have one, what you, the current reader, believe should be its future course. We’re all moderators here. And we’re all in this together.
- Mario |
Gadfly wrote:
"I guess they(know)a good thing when they see one..."
The key word is here is "see".
Might be wise to have a good listen before puffing up one's chest.
- Mario |
Hi Jean,
The shoot-out sounds great. It'll certainly be interesting if and when Peter's plate enters the fray. But getting back to our stock top plates....
Can you tell us a little more about the marine grade glass epoxy that you’re using on the underside of the top plate? Is a fast or slow cure? I take it that you invert the top plate; level it, then fill it “to the rim”. Obviously, you’ve got “dikes” of some sort to prevent the resin from flowing to “no go” areas like the idler/speed control assembly. Do you use a putty for this. Any brand names?
All best,
Mario |
Hi Dave,
"To ream, or not to ream" the RS-A1 headshell, is the quadry facing Ian's over at LL, even as you write.
- Mario |
The subjective loggerheads of neutrality versus musicality I suspect lies mostly, but not entirely, outside of the domain of turntable as appliance – that part starting from the stylus on back. In this, I’m pretty much in agreement with Lewm. But even the turntable as appliance – the drive train that sets the speed and support of the vinyl spinning under the diamond, can play a great part in presentation. Without belaboring all that we’ve come to know, the Lenco as appliance, brings all to the table that anyone would want of a drive train – a heavy platter acting as stable flywheel, cranked by a powerful, but quiet motor. You only have to think of the Technics SP-10 with it phase servo dc motor cranking a near 7 lb. platter, the Garrard 301, and the Teres heavyweights to know this is a given and very desirable aspect of what a turntable should be as an appliance. And the Lenco comes to play in this same league. What we do in terms of coupling and isolation only improves the Lenco platform.
Now what we mount as the retriever combo over this superb spinning base, that is the black arts & craft end of the deal. That tiny microphone on a boom comes in many more flavors than Baskin & Robbins, all trying to cant for every angle in the approximation game.
After reading this head-to-head between the Jean’s Lenco and Richard’s SME, I wondered where this whole Musical/Neutral issue would have landed had Jean brought his RS Labs RS-A1 to the meet. I had the good fortune of listening to this tonearm on Jean’s system about 18 months ago. (By the way, it’s currently getting some good play over at Lenco Lovers with Ian’s acquisition of one).
This rickety, physics-defying contraption was outfitted with a Denon 103(E) – or was it the Decca? At any rate, the speed of the transients in play, coupled with a forward front sound, and utter black background had me wondering where Jean’s SACD player was hiding for this simulcast – it was that unvinyl-like. Was this neutrality over musicality or colouration? I’m not sure. I suspect it was a potpourri of a lot of subjective elements that culminated in a rendition that can only be expressed in a greater subjectivism - “stunning”.
A bit later, Jean popped in his beloved Grado Platinum Woody into a Moerch and we we’re back into obvious phono staging – lush and warm with slamming bass.
This is not all to maximize the importance of the retriever at the expense of the turntable as appliance, but to state that the Lenco, “dressed up to the nines”, can come close to being all things to all people packing various armaments.
- Mario |
Yeah Dave, it sure can be a gas with those boys. Lot of smart cookies, though. I often think we sometimes seem to be floundering about over there, only because there's a big lack of inhibitions empirically as well as socially. Things just go flying - it's fun. Note that you got an honorable on page 5 or so.
All best,
Mario |
Hi Mike,
Good to see you resurfacing. Thanks for the the quick look and review on the Trans-Fi Terminator. A few questions:
What did you use for an air supply? Did you go the DIY route with plastic gas tank route as smoother? Also, I notice from your picture that you went with a single 10mm base spacer because of the Lenco's low-slung platter. Did you get a couple of extra spacers in case you want to mount the arm in a different environment?
All best,
Mario |
08-20-09: Nickiguy
08-20-09: 4yanx
I've still two Lencos spinning.
Glad to see you post here again. I always admired your work, and thought the original thread lost a valuable member when you bowed out. Seems as though it has been a long time since you posted on VA too.
Nickiguy
And of course, 4yanx, you're always welcome over at the new New Lenco Heaven site. A lot of old Lenco hands would love to see what the ol' artisan of plinths has been up to.
All best,
Mario |
GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT:
Lenco-Lovers is back up and running today.
All best,
Mario
|
Another Gobsmacked testimonial that, intended or not, deflates the windbag naysayers and swats down that pesky fly. Thanks Mikey, for getting us back to what it's all about. Never quite understood whether they hate the message or the messenger, anyway.
Glad you're enjoying the trappings left by Mr. Nantais. He does invariably seems to snare some great sounding items up there in Franklin's frontier.
Wishing all a better New Year.
- Mario |
GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT:
The Lenco specific audio site, Lenco-Lovers is down. Whether this is a temporary stoppage or portends to a more permanent demise, will remain a matter of conjecture until Francois elects to post an explanation. It would seem that this thread can serve as a temporary kiosk for those Lenco-Lovers members who are currently displaced. I would encourage folks not to revisit recriminations that may, or may not have led to the demise of Lenco-Lovers.
If this is the end of Lenco-Lovers, I'm sure my heartfelt thanks to Francois for having "carried on" and run the site for some 30 months will be echoed by many.
In the meantime, I hope that we may find the resources to continue on with a new Lenco devoted site, should LL be no more.
All best,
Mario |
Hi Mike,
Good to see you checking back in. We may be moving off pro.boards to a controlled server. It's in discussion. But if it happens it'll probably be sooner rather than later. We'll probably have a restoration space at that site. Just not sure. Can you send me your new e-mail? Old one got bounced back.
- Mario |
Just to fill everybody in … it is our hope that this “Despot II” is temporary, as we understand that the staff at AudioGon is hard at work trying to restore the original monster thread that was accidentally deleted two days ago. So this is a stop-gap for those of us who take this connection like our daily bread. That said … adversity truly is the mother of all inventions and Jlin what a service you have performed! Your putting together that digest is something that has been needed for a long time and should be reposted periodically on the old thread once it has been restored.
Just last night I received an e-mail from someone completely new to this who was bitten by the original lead in. I directed him to many of the sources that you used, but now I’ll contact him again and direct him to Jlin’s post #1.
And Mosin, like Grant, I’m thoroughly intrigued (and teased) by your hints of this innovational Lenco Idler modification.
Lastly, if AudioGon is willing, I will paste all postings to this thread to the tail of the original once it’s back up.
Sail on, oh fleets of Idlers!
Mario |
Wow Jean, that certainly is a beauty! This is your best yet. Looks totally professional with an upscale bearing that screams “out of my way!” The red mat takes this ancient and plops it square in the 21st century. The tonearm looks like it can cut as well as retrieve. You, and this project have traveled quite a way upstream from the Home Despot store and faux marble, though lumberyards and finish are still our touchstones. In answering your own challenge made a while back, you’ve certainly honored our Garrard ancestors with that gorgeous and stately turntable.
|
Up early today for the Labor Day weekend estate/garage sales. In the college town where I live, this is also move out/move in week where the total cast-offs in the garbage lanes would keep some third world countries afloat.
Those in the U.S. still in the Lenco hunt who are within driving distance of Canada should consider a little getaway to our great northern neighbor. Canadian imports of Lencos appear to have been ten-fold of what the U.S. took in under the Bogen badge. Bring pre-printed cards with the models that you’re after (L-75, L-78, GL-99 etc.) and your contact info to hand out at flea markets, antique stores and even thrifts. Have a good time and network!
Speaking of Bogen Lencos, I’ve finally broken down and sent off my L-70 plastic idler wheel for a retread while I ready the marble/birch-ply/mdf/ birch-ply/marble plinth.
The O-ring modification that Mike Greene and I have been dabbling in does seem to work fine – just thought I’d give the rebuild a try for comparison’s sake.
Enjoy the holiday weekend and remember Labor – the folks who brought us all the weekends. |
Hi Fishwinker,
It seems you are the point where you’ll need to adjust the block that surrounds the armature.
1- Remove the motor from the Lenco and place it on a resonant surface (I find Styrofoam shipping block to be excellent).
2- Hot-wire your motor’s AC, but don’t plug it in yet.
3- Remove the back plate so that you can remove the armature.
4- You’ll see four Philips head screws on the block – break them (the crack of loosening for the first time in a long time). Retighten to “to snug” all except the screw in the 4:30 position as you look at it head on. Leave this one a little looser since it’s hard to get at with the armature remounted spinning.
5- Remount the armature and back plate.
6- Plug in the motor.
7- With the armature hopefully spinning, back off on the three accessible screws until you can move the block orientation.
8- Adjust till you get smooth running.
9- Tighten up the three screws then unplug the motor.
10- Use a 90-degree Philips head driver or a tiny Philips screwdriver to tighten the last screw. You’re done. |
Mosin, you may be speaking to a stage that, as I read it, is quickly clearing. So without further adieu …
Everybody on stage for the line number, please! Take your bows or take your best shots. Willbewill, Bornin, Freek? It seems apparent that the curtain on this long-playing show may be coming down shortly. So roses or tomatoes, come one, come all, while the getting’s good.
Ironically, the elements that have held this odyssey together for so long, may also be taking it asunder: conviction and passion.
- Mario |
Hi Fishwinker,
Been brooding about what could be causing your motor vibration ... and I'm still brooding ...
In the meantime, take a look at 4yanx's post from a while back and see if it applies.
04-27-05: 4yanx
"As a further aside, we've found that the proper "tension" placed on the nose end screw is such that it the cupped end just seats onto the end of the rotor spindle and allows free travel of the "springy" doo-dad (less than a millimeter). Too little tension causes slop and too much causes restriction. It is a very fine line and impossible to "see". It helps when you get it right to have one person hold the motor casing with one hand, and a small screwdriver set in the slotted end of the screw with the other, while a second person FIRMLY tightens the hold down nut. In our experience, tightening that nut otherwise almost always results in the screw tightening a bit along with it and mucking up the works. Too, if the nut is not secured tightly enough, it backs off - the screw along with it. On out first couple, the doo-dad was so frozen that we didn’t even know it was supposed to “give”. Getting the proper tension was a BEAR until we discovered that."
Is there a numeric designation on the GL Delta Lady? |
Hi Nigel,
Oregon’s post follows the most up-to-date recipe for the “sandwich”. These are two distinct areas of attachment: 1) perimeter bolting (4) of the top plate to the top layer of plinth – usually to mdf, and 2) coupling the platter well (pan) with wood screws to the 2nd plinth layer – usually birch-ply – sometimes with the addition of neoprene gasket material or hardwood shims to make up for any gap.
The first phase of the attachment was always part of the recipe. The 2nd phase – also known as “direct coupling” - came later in Jean’s development of this grand project. Because some (including myself) had difficulties in getting the torque just right on “direct coupling”, you might consider taking this as a two-step process: 4-Bolt the Lenco to the plinth and listen to it for a few weeks – then direct couple. This way you’ll be better able to discern any sonic improvements/degradations.
Since the bolting of the Lenco to the plinth is to draw the top plate perimeter edges into the top plinth layer, I see no reason to be locked into the bottom/up 4mm bolting. I drilled out the threads of the top plate lugs and bolted top to bottom using ¼” bolts with cone washer with black neoprene on the contact surface. This eliminated tricky alignments procedures. Initially, I drilled smaller holes to align a couple of plinth layers at a time using nails while I made internal cutouts. Once all glued up with top plate in place – I drilled down with a ¼” bit. Then recess the nut into the bottom layer by drilling partway through the bottom layer with a ½” bit. You can almost always find ¼” bolts for the correct depth.
Nothing is written in stone about how you get there as long as you adhere to the basic principles of the sandwich recipe.
Sail on!
|
Adding to the detective work on tracking down sources of rumble comes a poster over at Lenco Lovers who pierced my “stuck-on-stupid” consciousness like a lightning bolt – with the observation that rumbling cutters can be faithfully recorded in the grooves.
Had I been hauling my mass plinthed Lenco back and forth to the workbench these past months because it was actually an over-retriever?
To be sure, this area ushers in a host of new variables, many untrackable cold case files because nearly all of the witnesses are dead. What cutters? Scullys? At RCA? When did idler-driven lathes commence? End? Were some better plinthed or dampened? Does a phono cart’s VTA need to match the cutter’s to dig out recorded rumble?
Certainly, the “real world” signal to noise ratio makes this a phenomenon more pronounced in classical recordings because of distant mic placements and soft dynamics. But that seems to be the case regardless of the source of unwanted transmission.
This will be a difficult case crack. But over time and with continuing improvements to the Lenco, it is any area that greater light may be shed on.
A. Conan Doyle’s empiricism may be apt:
“When one rules out all the probable causes, whatever is left, however improbable, is correct.” |
Hi Peter,
What a wonderful and ambitious project! This should slay all competition once its set up in your system – provided, of course that you have proper structural support (i.e. jacks) to brace up your house. Certainly looks heavy! Exactly what are these surge tanks? Somehow I have visions of supply and drain plumbing being hooked up to this thing in some kind of massive dampening hydraulic Lenco project.
And speaking of dampening, you’ve done a very admirable job throughout – much better than my patchwork attempts. One thing I did notice was that you still have the original idler tension spring hooked up. Right from the get go, Jean fingered this spring as a potential route of resonant noise transmission and substituted an elastic infused fabric item (for sewing into waist hems) that can be found in most sewing supply sections/stores.
Thanks for sharing your work with us, Peter, and keep us posted on updates.
As for all my projects: (4) idler redesigns/plinth builds; hardwood lens horn design & fabrication; (4) Reel to Reel deck resurrections – I’ve decided to put them all on a short hiatus and address the dirty state of my growing LP collection. I’ve become tired of taking nice records that I’ve bought for .50 to 1.00 dollar down to my local audio store and paying $1.50 to get them cleaned on their VPI machine.
So I’m building an ARC machine using the previously trailblazed standards for this DIY project: Ice Cream Maker motor; Guts of a Dust Devil 3 hp (peak) Vacuum; 1984 VW Windshield Washer Pump w/120VAC to 12VDC Transformer. I’m relying heavily on Jimmy Neutron’s design – but plan to deviate on the critical double wand record contact area. Whether playing or cleaning vinyl, it always seems to come down to adjustable VTA. |
Hi Jean,
Mr. Red indeed! Very nice job. We’re talking 7 or 8 stone here with this monster, aren’t we? Had no idea that Bogen continued its relationship with Lenco through the L-75 years.
Took the opportunity while browsing through “your system” to take a closer look at your tangential air-bearing arm. Would you hazard a guess over the cause of its falling short as a full bass retriever? Something endemic in its tangential design or set-up? This arms mass?
The reason I ask is that there’s a gentleman over at another audio site that I frequent who has caused quite a stir in posting results of his survey on stylus wear. He used a 200X Shure stylus microscope to examine every cartridge he has used or pulled from various equipment since 1962. His posted results: All used styli from pivoted arms show asymmetrical wear, while nearly all styli from tangential arms show symmetrical wear. He postulates that pivoted arms can never attain neutrality for long in the skate/anti-skate force battle because of groove modulation.
Well, if this is true, the implication for record wear is implicit.
However, if this boils down to giving up window thumping bass to extend record life, I’d probably elect to chomp the vinyl and go buy more. |
Hi All,
First, let me offer apologies for “My System” which resembles the untidiness of a flophouse. Instead of coherent exposition, there resides jumbled teasers. Someday soon, I must pursue some tutorial help in getting it order. Anyway, Chuck got hold of me and now has the MuMetal/Lenco application recipe and I believe he’s going to pursue the fix – a fix that will utterly banish motor generated EMF hum.
Work continues on my automated record-cleaning machine. Already there have been departures from Jimmy Neutron’s machine. The plastic gear drive interface between the ice cream maker motor and the cleaning platter had too much slop in my design which translated into wobble. This called for the introduction of a 12” “Lazy Susan” bearing assembly for the platter to ride on. With 80 balls this is quite the rumbler! A neoprene-lined chamber within “plinth” will house the 3 hp DustDevil vac motor and have a fabricated mini-furnace filter to keep cleaning fluid off the motor (fused – just in case).
Looking forward to visiting Ottawa in ten days or so to hook up with Grant for a CD release (mastered by our very own - gjwAudio1 – aka Grant) party featuring Terry Gillespie and The Granary Blues Band. Weather permitting, my wife and I hope to pay a visit to one of Jean’s old Archeo haunts, Bon Echo Park.
And maybe, just maybe… another Lenco.
Hey Mike,
You’ll have to split those royalties with Mr. Red Green.
- Mario |
Hi Oregon,
Nice Nice Nice. You have a lucky friend indeed! What’s with the seam around the plinth about an inch down from the top? Is this top layer a separate – affixed after the rest was bolted together? Or are these cooling vents for the hot-blooded Lenco?
What wonderful reads on this thread for the past week. Great contributions, especially on the early formative experiences and wide-ranging, full-breadth examinations on the state of our physical art and science. Certainly seems that the momentum of old has taken hold.
With no wish to interrupt this great flow, I must proffer a more pedestrian, “mad scientist” question that’s been rumbling around my head like an idler with a flat spot at 78 rpm. Feel free to caution, put down or ridicule:
Will a 12” “Lazy Susan” (a crude turntable with several dozen balls and a 300 lb. load max), when sandwiched between two slabs of 7/8” marble have any sonic penalty under a Giant Lenco with acorn + isolation footings? We’re talking multi-arm ergonomics here.
|
Hi Mike,
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m thinking. Ideally, 18” to 22” diameter rounds – though this is a tougher cut than straight lines. “Lazy Susan” gets masonry screwed to one side then a light coat of mastic strategically brushed on the other “fixing” surface and plop the other marble round on top.
Having all these items on hand, I’ve already checked the rudiments out. Getting a level pedestal (base) is key, since we’re all accustomed to cheating (shimming or foot adjustments) to bring our tables level on off-level bases, stands or what-have-you - in their static positions. But the Lazy Susan mechanism doesn’t produce appreciable error to level in itself.
There’s about a ¼” gap between the marble in which two small rubber wedges can be inserted to secure “stops”. While a drifting, spinning Lenco might be a sight to behold, I’m not sure bringing any Coriolis effect, however slight, into play is a good thing.
Dressing phono cable for payout shouldn’t be too much of a hurdle. Traditional “corner” mounting demands a 90-degree swing for two arms and 180 for three. However, a plinth designed for this application (“thinking outside the box”, Jean once said) could well reduce this to 60/120 degrees depending on the arms and their swing arcs.
The crux question is what you elude to about rattling bearings ... with the huge sink of a Giant Plinth, footed with Acorns + isolators and that atop the first marble round, would vibration still be an issue? If so, what about infusing grease in the "Lazy Susan"?
|
Hi Mike,
Funny you should mention the middle of the room placement… Grant and I were just talking about such an idea the other night (he’s kind enough to humor me by listening to my wild schemes). He’s at the final design point for his plinth and is considering two or three arm mounts.
Well, in short order the brainstorming on the ergonomics of multi-arm use, got around to an “Island Altar” in the middle of the room (a phono pre by necessity in the pedestal base). Well, since neither one of us are bachelors, that ain’t going to happen. But it was nice to bask in the warm glow of that religious moment.
But seriously, the more I work with this marble, the more I find it to be an excellent isolator in upward transmissions (footfalls) and I suspect, in the other direction as well. If the double coriolis or free-range Lenco needs a third, decoupled marble round, so be it. However, I’m not sure whether I have a full handle on how coupling or decoupling in the footing realm effects “focus”. At what point does isolation become overdone and promote focus robbery? And if a degree of base coupling is needed for focus, isn’t there invariably some rattler down the line?
By the way, Mike, if you’re still in the marble hunt and 1- you still get back to the NYC area to visit family or friends: 2- have patience to wait out the next time I’m in the metro area doing the same, I can drop off a couple of slabs for you. (I find that marble as ballast helps focus my ’83 Rabbit on long distance cruises.) |
Hey Grant,
That was fun! And in two-track mono to boot. Your primal skepticism only lends credible weight to the chorus – a mass constrained sandwich in its on right. Not many months back, when the three of us were together, you continued to ask pointed, in-depth questions of Jean about many facets in audio. Of course, our savant host had an answer for just about everything. Lazily, after finding my ears agreeing with all Jean’s other audio recommendations that I’ve been able to try (Petra ICs, Athena budget speakers, V-FET solid state), I’ve found it very economical, just to sit back and reap the benefits on this road to stellar music listening.
But Grant, you’re an excellent and fun writer and this was a treat. Since you’ve made me privy to some pics of your Mighty plinth build, I can see that this is going to be one heck-of-a Lenco.
- Mario |
Hi Harry,
That McCurdy sure looks nice and at first blush, it seems to have a few things going for it that might lend itself to be a good candidate for “polishing the rock” to see if it has the potential as another dynamic idler in the rough. In fact, I was ogling one of these last year, but let it slip away.
What attracted me was that expansive flat top plate and how well it would afford vast real estate for attachment and direct coupling to a mass constrained plinth in one swoop. Now that I’ve seen your photos, I also like what I see in that highly polished steel motor spindle. This is almost certainly a leg up on the Rek-O-Kuts and Prestos rim-drives with their bakelite spindles which seem to be prone to a slightly fibrous surface upon wearing.
Nevertheless, you’ll need to be open to other potential difficulties like motor isolation, noisy bearing, etc.. In my search yesterday on this turntable I could not turn up anything definitive on it – other than some “idler” chatter from former studio DJs who referred to the McCurdy as “The Master Rumbler”. But we also know that similar digs were said about the Lenco, and those proved of little consequence to where we are today.
So Harry, you may have to pioneer this one on your own for the betterment of the idler community.
But since you have it up on stilts, you might consider testing with a quiet LP (string quartet?) and reaching under and manually disengaging the idler from the platter rim and listen for the difference in unwanted signal coming out of your speakers. A stethoscope may also be in order for this new patient.
- Mario
|
Hi Kravi4ka,
Does your modified Rega 250 have any added VTA adjustments or is it stock & static?
If your Rega is in the original fixed version with only washers for height adjustments, then you’ll probably want your armboard about 1/8” below flush of the top plinth layer. I say “probably”, because I have a mounted Rega 300 and I’m assuming that the pillar/tube height mounting geometry is the same on the 250.
With mine mounted flush to the plinth without washer, the tube is horizontal with a generic height AT mm cartridge. But I don’t think this is optimal, because someone once wrote here many moons ago, (think it was Willbewill) that a Rega engineer said that these arms are optimal with their butts dragging a bit. But many things can throw minute variances into the VTA formula – cart height, platter mat thickness, the number of bearing thrust shims, MuMetal treatment, etc. Then there’s the question whether you’ll use something to isolate the armboard from the plinth or not. Some use plastic washers, others use rubber grommets and still others directly mount.
But my advise would be to plan for VTA and armboards, but don’t sweat it too much. By making multiple armboards of various thickness and flavors of wood (this stuff is freebie scrap at most lumber yards) you’ll give yourself room to experiment. The only hardwood I’ve heard spoken about negatively for this application is oak. Linn armboards are plywood – probably nicely laminated – but plywood nevertheless.
Maybe Stefanl who has helped me out with Rega issues will weigh in here.
All best,
Mario |
Hi Jean,
You’re quite the lightning rod, wherever in the world you are. To echo Grant’s sentiment – enjoy your travels and come back safe. Your point of where audio fits into life’s scheme is well taken. The welcoming smile from an unprestigious tolltaker is always to be valued more than the grudging nod from a titan of industry. Reviewed or not, we all know what we’ve got in the Lenco and its ability to bring smiles to the unpretentious.
While this thread teeters between becoming moribund and generating more heat than light, you’ll be happy to know that the groundswell of Lenco and Idler building continues outside borders of AudiogoN. Not only in the dedicated magnet realms that you mentioned, but also in that huge proletariat site we spoke of last year. The idler trickle-down is happening!
Funny, I’ve been through “Da” original “Thread” twice now, and I could find no place where you claimed to be the originator or inventor of any scientific principles as applied to the Lenco build. Certainly, there was a justifiable pride in application and development, but how that transforms in other minds as self-promotion is a mystery to me. More to point, it was a generous sharing of your time, effort and knowledge – a gift to individuals and to “the cause”.
“I have tremendous respect for these great pieces of audio history. They still can make a lot of modern and exspensive belt drives sound absolutely broken! No question. And when on a budget, the Lenco is THE king of the hill.”
- Steve - aka Vetterone
In reviewing the header post on what got this all started – I'd take this as a concession that you delivered the goods as promised.
Enjoy, and hope to see you when you get back.
- Mario |
OK Gadfly, do as your handle implies and buzz off to snipe somewhere else. You’ve become repetative in your negativity, so maybe you’ve convinced yourself that there’s good reason to hate others more than yourself.
Hi mrjstark,
This link will take you to a forked link page to choose either the printer or CAD ready version of the L-75 template.
http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=953
And thanks to both you and Oregon for the nice words.
All best,
Mario |
Hi Lewm,
Actually, someone on the original “Home Despot” thread did exactly as you suggested. He clamped the bearing sleeve with wood. His work was in the back of my mind when I began experimenting with this version. (Actually, I tried it out first in a partially assembled plinth for a Presto Pirouette idler.) Not taking anything away from the original clamp capture, I shied away from it because of the potential of adding sideways stress to the bearing – albeit something that would have more potential for harm in the original thin Lenco top plate than with Peter’s 4mm plate.
To answer your question, it is a tight fit. I drilled a hole smaller than the bearing sleeve and sat down to carefully rat tailed & sanded the hole until the sleeve just went in with a bit of pressure. This hole was the starting point of the plinth build – in other words everything keyed in both above and below to this coupling. Having had to pull the bearing through this hole some eight or nine times in construction has “loosened the fit somewhat. But there’s still quite a bit of contact and I’ll probably smear some non-hardening caulk to the hole sides before “final” assembly.
- Mario |
Hi Chris,
It’s an honor for many of us to have you post to this, the 2nd iteration of the “Home Despot” idler discussions, as well as your consideration of the possible candidacy of the Lenco as a platform for the Verus motor.
After reading the Teres promotional material about this motor and drive system, a couple of questions have occurred to me that I hope you can elaborate on. At first blush, they may seem to be “challenging”, but be assured that the purpose is one of inquiry into the discipline of what drives a record, and drives us all in this pursuit.
Unlike a true idler, the tire of which can take wear without affecting the speed relationship between motor and platter, the Verus motor’s direct drive wheel will have a direct effect on speed as it wears (quite correctable, no doubt). Should Verus owners hang onto those stroboscope discs, which they are encouraged to discard in promotional literature, for just such an event? Is there a way to recalibrate the “speed lock” for anticipated wear?
Secondly, is a general question on the area of variable torque. Coming from a camp where hard-cranking, big idlers are often the “quest”, it seems curious that Teres would put engineering effort into a low-torque optional adjustment. The promotional material leads one to believe that this option allows for a smoothness in listening playback. Is this smoothness, in fact, the “wow” of imprecise speed?
Many thanks for your continuing contributions here.
All best,
Mario |
My ode to the great bulk degausser was its possible role in curing my Rega 300 of mistracking a year or so back. After removing the hematite slug from the Rega’s anti-skate enclosure, I exposed the entire stub end to lengthy zaps from my demagger. Because I had fiddled with a couple of other variables at the time (including readjusting the Cardas wire at the downturn), I can’t say for certain that the degausser negated some magnetic charge that this Rega might have picked up from some improper storage somewhere (next to some huge speaker magnet?). But I’m open to the possibility that it might have taken care of the problem.
A few words in remembrance of the passing of the Athena AS series speakers, a modern design “budget” speaker that dared to move air with the “Big Boys” costing four times as much. They are gone - vanished from just about every supplier. Athena Technologies, along with a two other Canadian speaker manufacturers under the API umbrella were taken over by the Klipsh Group some 15 months ago. The AS line (Audition Series) was allowed to deplete without replenishment. The “replacement” for Athena’s top-of-the line AS-F2 floorstanders is the LS-500 (LS=Lower Standards?). Here are the specs for comparison:
AS-F2: 1” Teteron dome tweeter; Dual 8" Injection Molded Polypropylene with Rubber Surround; Front-firing bass reflex port; Sensitivity @ 93dbs; Frequency Response 35Hz-20kHz. Weight 51 lbs.
LS-500: 1” aluminum dome tweeter; Dual 6 1/2" Composite Fiberglas™ Cones; Sensitivity @ 90dbs: Frequency Response 30Hz-20kHz. Weight 32 lbs.
When an old established speaker company, buys up a young upstart and eviscerates its flagship product line, it can be said to be uncompetitive, if not predatory. To be fair, I have not auditioned the new LS-500, and so I cannot lay these pejorative claims at Klipsh’s doorstep. However, the specs do raise an eyebrow, and I would encourage folks to audition Klipsh’s replacement offerings and write to the company with their views. This goes for fans of Mirage and Energy speakers as well. Canada has earned too great a reputation in speaker manufacturing to watch it begin to go asunder without comment.
- Mario |
Hi Mosin,
Your points are well taken and center in on the crux of the “growth pains” that have been simmering for quite some time on Project Lenco, that being - at what point does innovation, be it simple tweaks or redesign, take away (or add, for that matter) from/to the “signature” sound of the original Lenco? And if we are assured enough by the listening results of our re-designs, that marked improvements can be made with innovations, what weight should be given in homage to the original Swiss essence?
Jean Nantais’ point of keeping it simple for a broad base of plinth builders, who took up his original challenge in this “thread as portal”, certainly had a good deal of validity in spreading mass appeal and maintaining a high degree of momentum which has lasted nearly four years. This philosophy neatly melded with the “collector” contingent, many of who use stock Lenco tonearms and maintain complete reversibility even from mass constrained plinths.
But this portal seems to have pretty much dried up as an induction center, whether that’s because potential takers have been tapped out or seek guidance over at Lenco Lovers which has a registered user base of 550… who knows?
But for some experimenters, it became an issue of “How you going to keep them down on the farm, after they’ve seen innovation”.
The Teres motor aside, the greatest innovation to come Lenco’s way after the wonders of a mass constrained plinth, at least for me, has been Peter Reinder’s custom designed top plate. It’s now in a second “improved” run and attacks what many feel is the Lenco’s weakest link – the thin stamped top plate which was not designed for edge coupling to a plinth and can take a bit of gymnastics with trial and error for successful direct coupling through the platter pan.
This 4mm hunk of laser cut steel affords a much fuller coupling to a solid plinth and makes the issue of tonearm plate cuts moot. Plinth cutouts are vastly simplified – all layers being the same – unless one wants to innovate further.
One of those “one step-further” tweaks that I have attempted using Peter’s plate has been trying to capture and “sink” bearing noise into the plinth. In the next week or so, I should know whether this has any added benefit.
But while we have you here Mosin, what would do (have you done) to redesign the Lenco bearing while keeping the original spindle and platter sleeve?
- Mario |
Hi Oregon and Marius,
Thanks so much for the kind words.
Marius,
Sight unseen (I've got a new order in for a small, as well), I still think that the Lenco plinth build with the PCTP Mk II will be considerably easier than a build with the original Lenco top plate.
The second version comes with custom machined motor mounts and all fittings holes will be pre-tapped. Construction of the plinth layers will be vastly simpler because each layer gets the same size cut-out for just the motor hole.
If one sticks with Peter's designed speed lock system for 33rpm & 45 rpm (as opposed to my "I want it all" custom speed channel), this should fall into a "beginner's level" wood project.
All best,
- Mario |
Hi Jean and Happy New Year to you!
Interesting that your DD dabbling mirrored some of my own recently, albeit that mine was an example much lower in the ocean strata – but certainly no bottom feeder to my ears – the Pioneer PL-518 (1977). This semi-auto (auto-return) is servo-controlled (18 pole/24 slot) and comes in at a bit over 20 lbs. – no small part of that heft coming from 2” of a solid particleboard plinth into which there is a high degree of direct coupling (sub-platter, armboard etc.). The sprung suspension is designed into the footing and can easily be changed out for solid footing to a marble + rubber/cork/rubber isolators type of sub-plinth arrangement if desired.
After picking this TT up at our municipal Re-Use center for $10, I was able to free up the linkage very quickly, but could only overcome the nascent EMI hum coming off both motor and neon strobe light by incorporating the Astatic MF-200 flux cartridge that Grant steered me towards.
The Pioneer was part of holiday audio “makeover” for a family member that wanted to “get into vinyl” (not everyone can get a Lenco – especially starting out). A pair of large Advents that I refoamed and competent little Technics receiver rounded out the package. But by far, the unexpected little gem of this roped together ensemble was that Pioneer DD which was quite musical and delivered some thumping bass.
Seems I followed up on your qualified DD recommendation telepathically, and as in so many times before heartily agree with your appraisal and reasoning.
By the way, many thanks for the compliment on my Interstate Lenco build.
All best,
Mario
|
Hi Mosin,
It is with no small degree of anticipation that many of us await the unveiling of your slate plinthed turntable, with hopes of a good, opened-source look inside. While I suspect that you may well be onto something with slate as a “superior” plinth material, I must call your attention to the main thrust of this thread and it’s earlier lost mother thread – “Building high end ‘tables cheap…”
While I think this thread should be open to alternatives and discourse, at the end of the day, if those alternatives leave us with a high degree of cost and complexity, it becomes a question of just how they fit in here under the original premise. I think you’ve been accommodated and we appreciate your views and expertise.
This thread’s main objective is to continue what Jean started four years ago;
to offer an extremely affordable recipe for folks of all skill levels to build a high-end turntable. It is a testament to Jean’s nailing this just right, that this recipe still holds true today. The job still can be done with hand tools and some rips and crosscuts for a trifling fee down at the local lumber yard. (Mr. JStark, you can get by with a borrowed $69 router and some patient set-ups with jigs.)
To be sure, this portal may have morphed into a bit of a redirection to center to Francois’ great Lenco dedicated site, but it still remains as a guidepost and kiosk for many to touch base with. Part of the draw over to Lenco Lovers is the ability to post pictures into a thread instantaneously – something not possible here. (I’ve often wondered how they get by over on Audiogon’s sister site – Photogon?)
Mosin, you are always most welcome over at Lenco Lovers and your designs and ideas will be given full field travel rights.
But in the end, this is still Jean’s thread and his platform. A lot of us still feel protective in allowing him this space to continue on as he see fit by way of thanks for turning us on. Nearly all of us check in regularly to get our fills of his wild newsletters from the wilds of Canada. Many of us like the fun flow of it all.
Mosin, I hope you will take this in the good spirit in which it is given.
All best,
Mario |
A gent over at Lenco Lovers did some experiments using a cement filled plinth. The results had interfering transmission in the form of rumble that had to be eliminated with further secondary layering with a softer foam layering underneath.
His take on this was that sound (in the form of unwanted transmission) either passes through or is reflected off of dense material. It doesn’t simply vanish. The alternating of dense/soft layering as in the constrained plinth allows for an overall dissipation in transmission because of a scattering of unwanted interference because of the divergent pass-thru/ reflective properties of the materials used.
Before we all rush to give exalted properties to slate as plinth material (including myself), I would submit that it has more in common with this cement plinth than the constrained “sandwich”.
- Mario |
Recently came across a pair of orphaned Electro-Voice EVS-16Bs - technically a bookshelf speaker from the early 1960s, but with a full cone 12" woofer, they'd easily pass as floor standers. After refoaming, rewiring and recapping, these sweet things have easily supplanted by workbench Rectilinears. Tremendously clear two-octave midrange comes out of the 5" Danish made mid-range cones. I believe the tweeters are also Danish. The Michigan made woofer is a pleasure, ready to thump when called upon.
The crossover is geared a little to the bright side, but not unpleasantly so.
On the idler front, my first summer overhaul is in progress - a Lenco B-52 - of all things. Ironically this lightweight platter/bearing design has a much better topplate for plinth coupling than the latter-day heavyweights (thicker and panless) – so I’m going to see what treatments I can come up with and then enclose it all into a huge boxed plinth with dustcover (plinth within a plinth). An entry-level Lenco, to be sure, but I’m hoping for a bit of stealth in this re-armed B-52.
Then it’s on to the Big American Idlers where I think I’ve come up with a way to incorporate on-the-fly fine pitch motor control. It’s in my head, anyway.
It’s house clean-out time. Get down to those thrifts and rubberneck those yard sales. There’s still plenty of treasure to found out there!
- Mario |
Hi Jean,
Those EV triaxials must sound great! Originally matched for Aristocat enclosures - guess about 8+ cubic feet? Saw another pair of EV-16s down at my municipal re-use center @ $5 for the pair. Once again, no foam, no grilles and, little doubt, in need of cross-over rebuilds.
Now the 12” EV-16s three-ways with Danish mids and paper tweeters, are nowhere in the same league as the 12TRX/12TRXB, but I was simply astounded when they left my Rectilinears sounding tepid when stacked for easy A/B comparison.
Then something happened… they fell off completely. Not sure whether I used a couple of bad capacitors from a defective batch (Dayton “audio” grade) or I did something ruinous to the voice coils – but they're “get up and go” has “got up and left”. Hmmmm. Sometimes I wonder if these old paper cones are environmentally sensitive – temperature/humidity etc. Maybe they’re winter performers. In the meantime, I think I’ll take a pass on those orphans at re-use and look to step up into the EV/Horn combo.
A stab at your tease…. Bearing capture into the plinth?
All best,
- Mario |
Lew, Musicfile & Wolf,
Sorry that you've had difficulty registering at lenco.proboards. In the past 24 hours, there have been nearly 50 new members registered and brought aboard. Things are still getting underway with quite a lot of work going on with the structure of the board. We're a collective trying to pick up the pieces and patch what we have back together. This refuge had its beginnings almost four weeks ago, when the Administrator at Lenco-Lovers took the site down for a day - a test scuttle? So Paul, there are usually two sides to any given story.
All best,
Mario |
