I just listened to the Gardiner 'Eroica' and I must admit that it is a remarkable performance. I read some of Gardiner's comments online about the symphonies concerning authoritative sources and Beethoven's own markings and notes and the fact that throughout history, most of these documents were overlooked or ignored. I want to add also that most of the musicians available during Beethoven's lifetime were inconsistent when it came to their levels of technique and musicianship and that additional instrumentalists could be added to or taken away from a performance based on a performers ability. Adding in parts was often an undertaking that was done by the orchestra director. So, the hard and fast rules that we observe today were not really understood in either the 18th or the 19th century. |
Loydelee, I haven't had a chance yet to hear anything other than the 5th and the 3rd. If I'm not mistaken, the new reissued Gardiner Beethoven has been remastered. I've been listening to the original release but am now interested in the newer set. |
Thanks Lowrider, I may eventually purchase the Japanese remaster of Karajan's 3 and 4 but will look around some to see if I can get it for less than $60.00. The point that was made about the double basses is consistent with some of the older recordings, even the Gardiner Beethoven that I've heard so far. I'm assuming that the muddy lower registers are do to the fact that lower frequencies travel more slowly and that this has been an issue for engineers, however the Helmut Walcha recordings are totally balanced as well as many other earlier recordings so it's inconsistent as well as puzzling. |
Hi Lowrider, I have not yet listened to the Bernstein Mahler remasters. However, if I were looking for a gold standard set of Bernstein recordings, then his Mahler would be it.
The Karajan 3 and 4 remaster that I mentioned is a Japanese import and it's not included with the other Beethoven recordings. I could only find it on the Acoustic Sounds website;
http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/75807/Herbert_von_Karajan-Beethoven_Symphonies_Nos_3__4-SHM_Single_Layer_SACDs
I just listened to the Gardiner Beethoven 7th and I have to say that as with the 3rd, the phrasing and emphasis between the instrumental sections is what stands out as uniquely exceptional. Also, his attention to dynamics is most obvious once he has gotten through part of the final movement. I would hope however that DG Archiv effectively remastered the most recent release as there are notable places throughout the CD's that appear inconsistent to the overall sound. If so, that would make this cycle even more appealing. |
Lowrider, my intuition tells me that the 3rd and 4th offer superior master recordings when compared to the others and that is not only why they sound better in the the DG box set but it is also why they were chosen by the Japanese engineers for remastering. The Japanese labels aren't going to waste time with recordings they can't make sparkle because they have to pay too much for the tapes and rights.
Also, I wasn't aware of this online citation because it wasn't included in the Karajan Japanese Beethoven description but I found it elsewhere and I feel it to be relevant since most of us have standard CD players (including myself) and not the SACD type players.
' Reissue features the high-fidelity SHM-SACD format (fully compatible with standard SACD player, but it does not play on standard CD players).'
Too bad. |
Lowrider and Brownsfan, I truly respect your opinions but I cannot completely agree that great recordings are a thing of the past. I would even make the claim that while a large number of todays recordings do fall short of what should be considered the industry standard, that a larger percentage of todays recordings are superb when compared to the percentages in the past.
To name some of the labels that I believe offer excellence more often than not;
ECM New Series, Harmonia Mundi, Allia Vox, Hyperion, Musikproduction Dabringhaus und Grimm, Challenge Classics, Pentatone, BIS, OEHMS, OPUS 111, Naïve, Zig Zag, Praga, ERATO, Koch,Teldec Das Alte Werk and yes, even a good many from Deutsche Grammophone.
Also there are the budget labels like Naxos, Channel or Brilliant (compared to URANIA?).
Plus the remastering and restoration releases from Andante, d'Orfeo, Testament, Music and Arts of America, and Pearl.
I collect mono vinyl from the mid to late 1950's and there are some fine recordings in my record bin but the production costs alone during that era made the volume of recordings limited when compared by todays standards. That's why the American and British labels became iconic and European labels where esoteric even with serious collectors. |
OK, thanks for clarifying Lowrider, now I see your point. Also, these smaller niche labels like Harmonia Mundi are able to rise from the ashes and become a major player in the recording industry. Even though they have been around for a fairly long time, it wasn't until the affordability of the compact disk that they could be taken seriously. In a way, I view this as an improvement but there is nothing to be gained from RCA Victor's lack of involvement by comparison to its past and no, that's not being overly nostalgic. I just wish there could be more of an emphasis put on live recordings and damn the mistakes, that's just part of the process. |
Lowrider, well at least they're being honest, if that's of any consequence?
My local classical radio station (it's often silly, however it) features a live concert once a week from anywhere but typically from Western Europe and it makes me wish that I had a better Magnum Dynalab and a professional reel to reel so that I could tape them.
You know, I have a DG mono platter of Karajan conducting the Brahms 4th that I believe was recorded in 1966 and it sounds wonderful. It seems that in the big picture, that DG has a track record of being inconsistent, am I right to say that? One prime example would be the Anne Sophie Mutter recordings of the Mozart Violin Concertos on CD compared to the Concertos on DVD. The performances of both are wonderful but the DVD recording sounds thin and a little gritty in comparison to the CD's. Sorry but I didn't have any Beethoven examples. |
Much of what I hear on my radio are studio recordings, orchestral or otherwise.
All of the CSO recordings with Paavo Jarvi are studio recordings. Yes of course, by live I mean a top rate recording of one evening from start to finish. I find that my favorite recordings are the Orfeo d'Or remasters of the Salzburg Festivals ( the Clara Haskil is breathtaking and in mono). Always appreciate your sharing your knowledge Learsfool and Lowrider, etc... Any good orderly direction is also appreciated. |
Loydelee, I often find that Hogwood, Manze and Gardiner are mentioned together contextually. We somewhat got off track from Beethoven and touched upon the Brahms Symphonies. I may find a way to order the Manze Brahms recordings which are on CPO. They've gotten rave reviews from critics and fans alike. I wish I also had the means to purchase the Hogwood set that you've ordered. My guess is that both the Manze and the Hogwood are audiophile standard recordings. |
Learsfool, thanks for the input. I do listen to radio online, WDR 3, BBC Radio 3, France Musique. I've even written letters to them asking if they wouldn't expand their server space with memberships which could then allow members to listen at 1411 kbps instead of 320 kbps or less. The low resolution is the only thing that I don't like about audio streaming.
I occasionally look at a groups website but usually soloists and chamber groups. It hardly ever comes to mind to look at an orchestras website.
I've never tried Satellite Radio but it is available in an internet streaming format. |
Hi,
I listened to the Gardiner Beethoven 7th yesterday and was thoroughly pleased with the performance but not so much with the recording. It seems that with these recordings in general, that the lowest registers, i.e. the double basses, tend to suffer from anemia. The dynamics are not the same, detail is lost and the sound stage leaves some shallow muddiness that just appears as a quiet low drone. It's still worth having these performances but I would make sure to purchase the newer box set. |
Sir Colin Davis just passed at 85. If I'm not mistaken, I remember his recordings with the Cleveland. Could have been the Egmont Overture. I'm amazed that conductors of this era are able to continue, Claudio Abbado being among them. |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006VOWTZI/ref=as_li_tf_til?tag=clacdrev-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B006VOWTZI&adid=073WMM6BMAN4D3Q1YAXN&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classical-cd-reviews.com%2F2012%2F06%2Fbrahms-symphonies-andrew-manze.html |
Brownsfan, I can't recommend it highly just yet (not until I own it at least) but one of the reviews (possibly on ArkivMusic) highly favors this performance over any of the other period recordings. Apparently, Manze had done some extensive research and only used it to his advantage. Also, CPO is one of my favorite labels for its clarity of sound and its open soundstage.
I do own a Manze recording of him conducting Mozart with the English Consort and it's delightful.
I'll just have to do some creative financing to cover the cost, but that will be a couple weeks from now. |
Brownsfan, I'll see if I can grab up those recommended CD's from the public library. The library does purchase a good number of classical recordings but they typically make ill informed choices.
Anyway, so you're saying that the review that you read on the Manze Brahms was that it's run of the mill? Then there seems to be some inconsistencies between reviews, here are some citations from the review on ArkivMusic;
'Nevertheless, these recordings have much to commend them, and Manze achieves his goal, whether h.i.p. or post-h.i.p., of breathing new life into works stifled by their own performance traditions.'
'Fortunately then, the Helsingborg Symphony Orchestra ensures that every moment in these recordings is worth focusing on. The balance is excellent, a result perhaps of Manze going for a moderately sized string section. Vibrato in the strings is present but minimal, while the woodwind soloists are permitted a little more wobble. The constrained tones of the horns and trombones contribute most to the 19 th century atmosphere of the orchestral sound. The SACD sound is excellent, and the recording really benefits from the warm but clear acoustic of the Helsingborg Concert Hall.'
'Something different, then, to add to your Brahms collection. Manze pursues his aesthetic ideology quite doggedly here, but never at the expense of the results. He's too much of a professional to let his scholarship ever stand in the way of his intuitive musicianship, which must surely have played just as big a role in the formation of these interpretations.'
The reviewers on Amazon also give praise to his set so that's from where I've been formulating my expectations. This best way of course is to hear it for myself. |
Well Brownsfan, after having read the David Hurwitz review, I am now skeptical about this Brahms Manze set. This was the first out and out criticism of the performances that I've read and while I try not to give reviews too much credit, I tend to side with Mr. Hurwitz on most accounts.
Damn those critics, they always ruin everything.
However, I do own the Marek Janowski Brahms 4 with the Hungarian Dances on PetaTone and while I prefer the Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra Hungarian Dances to that of Janowski and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, the 4th is worth the price of the disk in and of itself. So I've made a final decision being that my next Brahms purchase will be the Marek Janowski Brahms 2 & 3 with the PSO on PentaTone. Yes, I know that I'm playing it safe here but because I don't have money to throw around, then so shall it be.
It's funny because I tend to weed through the western and central European groups first but here I am siding again with the Pittsburgh. How times have changed. |
Brownsfan, well thank you kind sir, you've just saved me $15.00 that can be put to use somewhere else. In fact I've had my eye on the Bob Dylan 'Blood on the Tracks' SACD from Mobile Fidelity.
Brahms is a tough composer to weed through seeing that many of the greatest interpretations date back to the 1940's. As a result, Brahms lovers can be set in their ways, therefore making it difficult for the newer recordings to live up to those previous accomplishments. I'm looking at my Andante Brahms Symphonies box set and the conductors on it are;
Toscanini 1941, Walter 1936, Stokowski 1936, Mengelberg 1932, Monteux 1945, Sabata 1936, Furtwängler 1945, Weingartner 1938. |
I also posted on a Gramophone forum with respect to the Beethoven Cycles and was informed of the Mikhail Pletnev cycle with the Russian National Orchestra. Has anyone heard this set? What is your opinion of Russian or Eastern European academies whenever concerning the music of Vienna or of Central Europe? This is of interest to me in the context that many recordings made during the Soviet Union are just now being discovered by us here in the West. |
Hi Loydelee,
Maybe we could give this subject a bit more latitude; USSR recordings including Eastern Block countries like Hungary, etc... The point being that Vienna and Budapest are next door neighbors, so one might conclude that a handful of Beethoven performances recorded from behind the 'Iron Curtain' would be of significance. My assumption is that despite Mylodia and their efforts from the 1950's forward, that many recordings are yet to be delivered to the public domain.
A while back, the Appian label released a series of recordings entitled 'The Russian Piano Tradition' and it would appear that this was an attempt to finally release unfamiliar Russian recordings to us here in the west. As one might imagine, it included Beethoven pieces from Maria Yudina but also from many other Russian pianists who are anything but household names. This series has been out of print now for a few or more years. What I'm driving at is that I believe we're just scratching the surface when it comes to Russian and Eastern European artists, including those who attended conservatories both in the US and in Western Europe. |
Thanks Lloydelee for the recommendation. I got started on this when I was in Odessa, Ukraine and I went to a piano recital in the Philharmonie. The pianist was superb and he had studied abroad at the Juilliard School in the early 1960's. Of course he went back to Ukraine because he had secured a position, probably teaching. I'll keep looking around in this realm for Beethoven but for other composers also.
By the way, I have a recording of Szell conducting the Coriolan Overture in 1959 at the Prague Spring Festival with the Czech Phil. It's a very satisfying live performance. |
