Can Shiit actually be polished?
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Showing 47 responses by audioengr
the output stage runs in pure Class A it actually gets hot, so they are running some actual juice through it So is the output stage of the Overdrive SX, as well as the other stages. I expect my output stage is more linear than DaVinci.
What is their relationship with Tesla? I am an owner and stockholder. Should existing, operating companies use kickstarter? Maybe startups... Steve N. Empirical Audio |
FYI, a study of measurements and listening I did today comparing USB to Ethernet. They are both good BTW, but there is a clear winner. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155232.0 Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I don’t think anyone doubts that Ethernet is the ideal way to transfer those magic bits, but most dacs (other than yours, the Ayre and a very few others) don’t have an Ethernet music input. Also, the ONLY proper way to utilize “Ethernet music out” from a server is having a dedicated Ethernet output Well I do offer an external device called the "Interchange", which has S/PDIF coax, AES/EBU, I2S and HDMI I2S outputs. This can be used with ANY DAC. I find that using S/PDIF coax it sounds identical to the same Ethernet interface installed in the ODSX. I think one of the major advantages of Ethernet is that you don't need any fancy server. Driving the DAC from a router or switch is fine as long as it has the right power supply. My issue with your Ethernet input when I had it was that my Mac Mini with Ethernet was still an inferior source to my N10 via spdif Unfortunately, you were the first to get the Ethernet interface. You were the early adopter in this case. I learned a lot after that about how to use it and connect it, as well as making many sonic improvements to it, including adding a WIFI interface. The new XMOS USB interface is really close though, and probably with one of your expensive USB cables and the N10 server will rival the Ethernet interface. I can't wait to get it to you!! Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Do you know what the similarities and/or differences of your implementation of ethernet re my Resolution Audio Cantata? I Googled the Cantata to learn about it. The Ethernet is used as a method to extend the range of USB (using pont neuf), so this not really Ethernet DLNA or other protocols. Even when a router is used, the Ethernet is used simply as an extension for USB asynchronous protocol to gain greater distance. My Ethernet does not have USB protocol underneath. It has DLNA instead. It is using packets to move data, just like storing to a disk or sending email using Ethernet. However, the DLNA protocol makes sure that all of the packets are re-assembled in the endpoint and spooled from a FIFO and that the endpoint FIFO never runs out of data. It also identifies the file-type and sample-rate so the hardware knows what to do. The DLNA protocol is supported by many mass marketed devices from companies like Panasonic, Oppo etc... The important thing is that two decent audiophile players support DLNA, namely Jriver and Audirvana+. DLNA is not compatible with all players. Amarra does not support it and Roon does not support it. Roon uses a different Ethernet protocol than DLNA. The queueing model of DLNA and Roon's RAAT are different and non-compatible. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Matt - FYI, the first review on the Overdrive SX with Ethernet input: https://www.audiostream.com/content/empirical-audio-overdrive-sx-ethernet-dacpre Steve N. Empirical Audio |
ct - thanks for the kind words. Since the ODSX review came out, I tried a different player software than Jriver. Minimserver with Linn Kinsky. This actually sounds more live and more impactful than Jriver. Not sure any reviewer would be willing to do this though. A bit more work to install both of these and configure them. This is yet another datapoint that shows that the volume DSP in these players mucks-up the sound quality. I wish all of them simply had a bypass for the volume control rather than maximum setting. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
“We're like licorice. Not everybody likes licorice, but the people who like licorice really like licorice.” Like most things, there is licorice and then there is fine licorice. ct - It is the DSP feature of volume control that virtually all of these players force your data to be processed through. I think it's just easier for them to set 0dB for DSP code than to bypass it. Also, it takes yet another knob in the GUI to bypass it. Maybe they are afraid that some users will inadvertently set this knob and blow up their speakers, even though the volume control is set to low. Liability... Steve N.Empirical Audio |
You have to ask yourself, if there is no depth to the recording, can a DAC synthesize depth? I think it's kind of like asking the DAC to deliver detail in a recording that is not there. I think it is more likely that the improved depth is the result of a better D/A. The ODSX is more expensive, so you should expect that. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Volume control is a check-box that every playback software must have I guess. I think there might be some that believe it's a liability to have a volume defeat/bypass button because some users might think the volume is active and set low and then blow-up their speakers because it is actually bypassed. I'm sure that coloring the sound with volume DSP is not intentional, but I have heard it many times, more times than not. At shows I have used DSP equalizers and crossovers and they always seem to color the sound, even when they are set flat. I avoid them now for that reason. I think the least coloration I have heard from an volume DSP is Amarra, Sonic Studio. I believe that many manufacturers don't have resolving enough or low-noise systems that they can tell whether their DSP software is coloring the sound or not. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
It's here: https://www.audiostream.com/content/empirical-audio-overdrive-sx-ethernet-dacpre BTW, I figured out what was making the vocalist sound recessed for the reviewer. It was Jriver. I am using Minimserver and Linn Kinsky instead now and getting much better results. Much more live, much better bass. Minor negatives mentioned in the review are fixed. I guess the DSP in Jriver is not that good. It thought I had overcome the software issues with Ethernet, but evidently not. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I tried Foobar on my Mac and could not get it to work. Kinsky is a bit bare-bones, but if it gives the best SQ, that is what I’m after. Ease of use is secondary to me. That’s why all of my files are in .wav format. Minimserver does allow one to change the displayed items and tags quite a bit. Steve N. |
Matt - I found another good playback software, Twonky. Initially it did not work with my Ethernet renderer, but they issued a new beta version that does work for me. SQ as good as Kinsky, but I think it is a bit more stable and maybe user friendly. It is not released yet, so I’m using the beta version. I don’t know if Steve is aware but the SRC converters in Apple core audio are terrible - it is very important to make sure no conversion takes place in core audio I know this. I avoid iTunes like the plague. I have used it in the past with Amarra as a playlist navigator. I don’t do any SRC anymore. I used Wave Editor in the past because it was the best, but I don’t find the need anymore. 16/44.1 sounds fantastic on the ODSX. BTW, today I plan to compare on the same hardware Roon versus DLNA using either Twonky or Kinsky. The only difference will be software. I want to determine how good Roon software is. If I’m going to design a Roon interface, it had better be as good as my DLNA. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I have upgraded my Mini with El Capitan and I'm using it with Linn Kinsky to drive network audio now. Superb SQ, best I ever had. Not sure if it supports Tidal or not. I will give Tidal a try soon. Once you upgrade the OS, the OR5 will not work anymore with the Mac. Other customers are starting to move from USB to Ethernet. My Interchange Ethernet renderer is killer good with any DAC. Look for customer feedbacks on my forum. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Streaming might be viable if I were just casually listening and not collecting on top of it. Additionally, not all types of music - especially live recordings - are available to stream. Why do you believe that Ethernet renderers = streaming? I don't do any streaming at all and I use an Ethernet renderer: my Ethernet DAC the ODSX or my Interchange Ethernet renderer. I play only my .wav files that are from CD rips and downloads from HDTracks. Everything is stored on a Raid1 and played from there. I can use Jriver, Twonky or Linn Kinsky for playback. It's the best sound quality I have ever had, and I've designed 6 generations of USB interfaces as well, Off-Ramp -> Off-Ramp 6. Here is an apples to apples comparison, measurements and listening tests: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155232.0 Steve N. Empirical Audio |
My DAC (Yggdrasil) does not support Ethernet in, and I’m in no hurry to get another one.you don’t have to get another one. An external renderer like the Interchange goes Ethernet to S/PDIF, AES/UBU, SE I2S and HDMI I2S. But would I be correct in saying that your wav files that are from CD rips and downloads from HDTracks, that you are storing on Raid1 still has a cost of the storage device itself? Sure. I have a Terabyte and it’s enough for me. The RAID insures that I will never lose any music. It delivers low-latency because it's attached. And, is the cost of the storage more or less than $200 for 8 (eight) TB (terabytes), which is my cost for a western digital drive. Yes, but RAID has 3 drives, so you have 3 copies at all times. And, aren’t you using at least twice the storage space you would otherwise use if you stored as flac? Yes. Not a problem for me. It’s worth it for the sound quality. That is what I sell, that is what I want for myself. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I’m curious if you are able to listen via "blind testing" and conclude the same results as your measurement data? I didn’t bother with that in this case. I am a trained listener and do this every single day, listening for changes, problems, nuances. Been doing that for 42 years. I don’t doubt my conclusions. I made business decisions based on them. You are welcome to doubt them if you want. It’s still a free country, at least last time I checked CNN. Steve N Empirical Audio |
That is the rub. It’s UPnP, not Roon. There are reasons why I don’t do Roon. Email me. If you must have Roon,here are some options: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153889.0 If you must go Ethernet to USB, then see the Sonore solutions. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
One of my complaints about SACD is they all seem to have no ’room’ played in. The music all seems to ’magically’ float out of a black hole. On double-layer SACD's, particularly live recordings and orchestral I found exactly the same thing to be true. I'll take PCM every time. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
This is what Delta Sigma/Mash did when it was first released back in 1990 and still does now to Redbook PCM conversion, it gives a facsimile of the real thing, where R2R Multibit is bit perfect. I would have to disagree. It's poor digital filtering that causes this, not Delta-Sigma. My Delta-Sigma sounds a lot like an R2R. My last DAC was an R2R. My latest is Delta-Sigma. It beats my previous R2R. Steve N . Empirical Audio |
My strategy is a bit different, and I have attained audio nirvana I would argue. No personal attack here, just different. 1) go for the most jitter immune, cleanest, lowest distortion and highest SNR DAC available. This would obviously be a new DAC within the last year or two. It might be too lean and analytical for the desired goal of “musicality” and engagement tie tapping but you start with the bare truth and a reference signal. I am almost never impressed with the quality of the master clocks inside DACs. They are almost never good enough. This includes power delivery and associated dividers and buffers/selectors etc.. I would much prefer to sell to a customer that has a DAC with NO reclocking or jitter reduction, at least on the S/PDIF coax inputs. 2) Get the most resolving SS power amp - Benchmark ABH2 looks impressive. Again the power amp should be powerful and transparent - a Bryston, Pass Labs, Krell - there are plenty of choices. I would pick Wells Audio, Merrill Audio, D’agostino or get a good SET tube amp. I have been auditioning amps at shows for 20 years, as well as speakers. 3) Roll preamps and roll preamp tubes until you find the desired sound I would eliminate the active preamp and drive direct from the DAC or use a passive transformer linestage. Preamps are the worst offenders for coloring/distorting sound quality. Just get rid of them unless they are $10K+ tube preamps. I do agree on tube rolling. Critical step. Be prepared to spend some time and money and resell the rejects on ebay. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I can speak for my own modified SET amp. Very fast and great bass control. Same with D'agostino amps. Some of the best I have heard at shows. I am a fan of tube SET amps though and would not have SS for myself anymore. Tubes are just more linear and less prone to temperature and dynamic effects. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
There is something missing with DS when it has to convert PCM, it's not just an emptiness, but missing a bogie factor that gives excitement to the music, and a snap your head back slam, even though the DS measurements show better sn/dr figures. I don't experience any of this with my D-S DAC. These are more a result of poor digital filter and poor power delivery IME. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
This is exactly the chip I used in my Spoiler TubeDAC. Sounded really lifelike, but the Overdrive SE and SX using D-S left it in the dust for weight, detail and dynamics. Steve N. |
George frequently to support his point says R2R is "bit perfect" whereas delta sigma is merely a "facsimile". As a listener I don’t hear R2R superiority. As a builder/designer is this claim true and if so is it an audible or meaningful distinction in your experience? I have compared D/S to R2R with my own DAC designs. The D/S is better, however my R2R was using older chip-based technology. Some of the new clever design tricks with R2R overcome some of the limitations of older chip-based technology. The accuracy of each level is still an issue however, so this causes its own distortion. When you compare these two technologies, you are comparing two different deficiencies. The question is: given both designs are excellent, which one sounds more live to you? I have personally had great results with D/S, but if I designed an R2R from scratch, it might be equally good. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Not meaning or wanting to play on words here, but for clarification purposes, by "live" do you mean "authentic"? By live, I mean when I play a live track, say a jazz performance in a restaurant, can I close my eyes and believe that I’m actually sitting in the restaurant? Can I turn my back on the speakers and believe that there is a live performance behind me? Does a good piano track sound like my Yamaha Grand Piano in the other room? Steve N. |
This shows that in this system, one DAC beat the other. Did they even use the same interface? Was it USB or S/PDIF? All of this matters. Even 2 different USB interfaces will perform differently. It does not prove that Delta-Sigma is inferior to R2R. The devil is in the details, the implementation and design details, not the D/A technology IME. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Sound quality in an audio system is of course a "system" thing involving every single part. I feel that both the source and the speakers are the dominating factors. In the case of my two different DAC technologies, I compared them head-to-head in the same system at the same time. The D/S won hands-down. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
So, which one was used?? The devil is in the details here. I recently asked a reviewer that did a DAC shootout what interface was used to make the comparison and he refused to tell me. What kind of a reviewer does that? Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison? Another detail that could easily skew the results. These types of shootouts must be carefully thought-out so a fair comparison can be made. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Absolutely no advantage whatsoever, helps if you know about input sensitivity that the Gryphone Antillion only needs 1v in to give it’s full power out. The Bricasti has more than enough to clip the Gryphone if it needs to. This is insufficient to predict overall performance. This will only predict output level and maybe clipping level. What it needed is the output impedance and the drive required of the amps to deliver dynamic response. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Absolutely no advantage whatsoever, helps if you know about input sensitivity that the Gryphone Antillion only needs 1v in to give it’s full power out. The Bricasti has more than enough to clip the Gryphone if it needs to. Sensitivity is insufficient to predict performance. This will only predict output level and maybe clipping level. What is needed is the output impedance and drive required to deliver dynamics from the amplifier. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
You know very well as I do that the output impedance on both are very similar with discrete transistor direct coupled outputs at 40ohms Bricasti and 32ohms Total, and clipping or drive is not the issue for either direct into 100kohm of the Gryphone, nor into the 10kohms of the Lightspeed Attenuator. No, I don't know this. It is really easy to get entirely different AC impedance by having different power delivery to the output stage, even if everything else is identical, which I'm certain it is not. Even 40 versus 32 is a big difference. These are static measurements, not dynamic. The input DC resistance of the amps is not very relevant either. The issue is the di/dt current required to achieve dynamics from the amps. Most amps have 50K-100K input resistance. This is simply the resistor soldered at the inputs, not the same as the input impedance of the active devices. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I agree. Sometimes it can work out, but a good preamp, usually tubes will make the playing field much more fair for DAC shootouts. DACs just don't have the low output impedance that a good preamp will have. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I think the fixation on DACs and their sound is a mistake. Get a good high quality tube preamp with the right tubes and create the tailored sound you want. Simply Connect a high performance SS DAC - any number of Stereophile class A+ will do and many others that Stereophile hasnt reviewed. I agree that a good preamp is more important than the DAC, however they are both important. Easier to find a good DAC than a good preamp unfortunately. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I use isolation devices, RF and transformers, in my cabling and components, but not optical. My system has no ground-loops thanks to these. The concern I would have with optical is maintaining the edge-rates to get low-jitter. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Like USB, it is unexpected. I can only speculate that maybe the circuits in the Ethernet receiver react differently to slower edge-rates and poor signal integrity. Maybe the setup timing margins are smaller. This might cause the propagated signals to have more jitter. Most designers don’t realize that digital logic is not perfect. It will be error-free if designed correctly, but avoiding jitter is a whole different ball of wax. It has taken me literally 25 years of designing and experimenting to discover this behavior. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
We talk about introducing jitter on ethernet, but what about the ethernet connection from my Eero mesh router into my server? Should I try optical isolation here or just a nice ethernet cable only? The primary improvement seems to occur in the last connection of Ethernet before the DAC. If your server is Ethernet driven, but S/PDIF or USB to the DAC, then good cables and isolator as well as upgraded LPS for the router will probably make a difference. It makes a difference with my Sonos driving my Synchro-Mesh reclocker with S/PDIF. Steve N. Empirical Audio |