Matt, how many hours of break-in do the Consequence Ultimate have on them? Shoutiness could be a temporary artifact of incomplete breakin, as much as it might be caused by non optimal placement. In the former case, patience should do the trick. If the latter, a call to your dealer might be in order for suggestions, recommendations, or an at home consultation session. G. |
AudioLabyrinth, Matt is not disputing your assertion about the JBLs quality/musicality/desirability.... He heard them and likes them fine... The speakers are too large for his room. See the following fragment from his post on the subject:
"The JBL DD-67000 are
dual 15" drivers and are 38" wide; way too big for my small room. I have heard them and they are great, but not a match for my needs."
G. |
Hi Audiolabyrinth, I am delighted that the big JBLs have found themselves cozy homes in space-challenged Japanese abodes.
Regretably, it appears however that in spite of your better judgmet, Matt feels no compunction deviating from Nipponic space utilization standards. His abode and preferences being unapologetically his own only, he appears to have declined to plunge the darling BBMs (Big Behamoth Speakers) down the stairs to his moderately sized musical cave.
To change his mind will require a formal petition.... 100K signatures minimum... Your direct bank deposit to his account to cover all costs.... And a further compensation in kind or cash arbitrated by a federal judge to cover any incidentals: medical, legal, and psychological counseling, and... underground escavations to build Structural extensions of his basement into the extant hillside to optimize the listening space for the oversized creatures.
G.
Regards, G.
|
Hmmm, bass response seems to be a little suboptimal for the large drivers on these JBLs. G. |
Matt, it might depend on what you are playing on the speakers.... Electric bass as an example, is likely to be perfectly OK, it naturally blooms into the third harmonic while attenuating the fundamental, because of the relative shortness of the strings, and the natural inclination of the amplifiers used in the live venues.
But try to give such speakers some organ music extending downwaards into the 16,32, or 64 foot pipe ranks, or other bassus prufundus, like some orchestral string bass, large percussion, etc... and you are likely to get a somewhat unpitched bloom at the bottom instead of fundamental frequencies.
Probably euphonically pleasing to some.... Would drive me batty.
As you know, I am not even faintly in the market for new speakers. But spoiled as I am by the finely setup VA Die Muzik in my loft, I could not live with a bass compromise, as "natural" as it might seem prima face.
Rather, on purely hypothetical new speakers, I would seek even deeper bass, perhaps going down to the higher teens, still consistent with the pitch integrity and harmonic articulation that DIe Muzik are capable of delivering down to the lower twenties region.
G |
Hi Matt, if in about one more month of grinding out signals the Consequences do not tame the shoutiness, you might need to get a professional to do a methodic setup... And if the shoutiness persists after that, you might need to look for tamer creatures... Or add a pair of Rel active subs to the good old Muziks to let your system reach down one more half clean octave.
G. |
Hi Matt, believe it or not, I had completely forgotten that Muzik in your room were overloading the bass... Perhaps I'm starting to misfold proteins in the brain *grins!*
Regardless of speakers brand and model, both Kevin Wolff of Vienna Acoustics North America (VANA) and Rod Tomson of Soundings in Denver assert that almost any room can achieve excellent sound if speakers placement is performed by a professional with the VA/Sumiko method.... Variously called Master, Masterset, or Master Set. The process is unfortunately not documented particularly well in the wild, but is sold as a service by some Sumiko and VA dealers like Soundings... It certainly worked fantastically in my own loft to eliminate some residual shoutiness and mid lower bass overload... On the other hand, my loft is essentially 16 x 30 ft or so, and is far from approximating a square. Furthermore, the great success in my loft cannot imply that a generalization is a safe bet.
On a different track, is it possible that your now more reflecting floor might be a contributing factor to the Dynaudio shoutiness?
G. |
Hmmmm... Matt, You seem to be in the horrid position of having fallen in love with two divine girls! ... Oops, I meant speakers!
Which one will be your girlfriend... Double Oops, so sooorry, I meant... Which one will you choose?
May be... Marry both?!
Aloysius
|
Gear, must be the Summer work-stressers getting on to me... Mine was only a very mild encouragement for Matt to consider audiophilic poly-somethingery or rather.... I'll be fully PC again tomorrow *grins!* |
I suspect that if T&F enjoy high synergy with the lovely Veritas, they would sound absolutely amazing with my Rowland M925 monos. Like Veritas, M925 use NCore NC1200 technology in the output stage. M925 overall design pushes the performance of NCore into uber regions.
Yes, I have direct experience with both these marvellous amps. Both do incredible things for their respective price points.
If anyone is attending RMAF, Rowland M925 will be featured in the Nordost suite. The entire system will be likely cabled with the recently released Nordost Odin II wires.
Guido |
Bill is correct.... Worth pointing out that M625 S2 and original, M725, M825, and M925 all make use of PFC rectifiers that feed high voltage DC current in the SMPS. Furthermore, it seems that M625 S2 is a substantial re-design under the hood... Sorry, I do not have too much detail yet, besides the use of ceramic boards, 4-pole caps... There is lots more detail.
G. |
Matt, I am so proud to be a member of the rarified community of your certifiable crazy friends... Whether our symptomatology conforms to the canonic chronic model, or ours is a boundary acute degenerative case, I venture to say that we do all reach well into the stratosphere of audiophrenic morbidity.
* As you know, my bet was on the Dynaudios... I am confident that they will soar to even further heights during the next few months.
* I do admit that the win of EMM over Empirical is a stunning upset, particularly given the magnitude that you experienced. I am now intrigued to no end by what EMM has achieved. Will you be testing the upcoming Empirical superDAC as well?
* The following new thread contains a data point suggesting that the Bryston BDP2 might be a strong contender versus Aurander, in spite of BDP2's significantly lower price point:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1443219284&openusid&zzGuidocorona&4&&
Saluti, G. |
All, concerning the Daemon uber-integrated... I do not have complete information from the factory yet. But the core of the output stage might contain, amongst other things, a very high end Pascal module... No, this is not at all the one used in Rowland Continuum S2.
Regards, Guido |
Well, yes... Aeris directly into Rowland amps is divine... I remain ever so happy about my Esoteric X-01 + Rowland Aeris + Rowland M-925 monos + Vienna Die Muzik chain *grins!*
G. |
Matt, given the caliber of line-level gear that you are working with, it might be worth while climbing up the Shunyata conditioners totem pole up to a Triton II. G. |
Hi Matt, does MSB have a variety of upsampling and filter settings, or is it a "launch and forget" kind of DAC?
G. |
Matt, can the MSB DAC be tuned through upsampling settings and filters, or is it a "launch & forget" type? |
I hope that CH Precision has evolved since I heard it two years ago at RMAF. To my ears, the suite was a veritable ear bleeder... Positively acrid. I asked the gent if perhaps the system was fresh out of the box and needed a bit of break-in... Gent became very irrited.... Told me that the system sounded the way it should.... CH Precision does not need any break in.... Sounds perfect right out of the box.
Thus, picked up my test CD, and... Left for sweeter pastures.
Thank goodness MSB was across the isle. I quickly reconciled with the world of audio: I was enchanted.
G. |
Hi Matt, sorry... I did not imply that you enjoyed CH Precision. It's just that the sound of the brand is beyond my ability to grock. Yet, I am glad that some audio lovers do have an affinity to it.
G.
|
Keith, retail pricing of HFC Pro series is found at:
http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/power/pro.html
G. |
Grateful, I use no preamp at all, and am as happy as a clam *grins!*
Believe it or not, my speakers are not high efficiency horns by any stretch of the imagination.... Die muzik are multi-triver 91dB speakers with a wilding input impedance dipping into the nether regions. I use a Rowland Aeris DAC directly into 430W Rowland M925 monos... No, I am not suffering even a little bit from line stage withdrawl symptoms.
G. |
Hi Matt, I have heard and used Aeris only on Rowland electronics this far... A really delicious thing. Hope you have the M925 + Aeris experience in your own music-cave some day.
A preamplifier between Aeris and the amps will subtly flavor the whole. Is a "purist" configuration "better" than a "flavored" one? I would not say so per se... It is a matter of personal preference, with a particular DAC, a particular pre, a particular amp, particular speakers, music, cave, mood, and particular strain of misfolded Audiophrenia Gravis prion particles infecting you.
Saluti, G. |
Calvin, you can double the musical fun with your high res recordings... Sandisk has a 512GB SD/XC card available. Currently sells for $448 on Amazon. G. |
Hi Denon1, would love to help you locate a knowledgeable Rowland dealer... I tried to send you a PM, but for some odd reason, was not able to open the PM link at all. Why don't you try to send me a PM instead...
Meantime, here is the link to the Rowland distribution network world wide:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/us/distribution-3.html
Guido |
I believe that the Rowland amp that replaced the Lampi was the newly redesigned M625 S2. Same amp used in Jeff's own uber system at the Rowland factory which Matt listened to.
G. |
Norm, as Matt said, today's class D amps can be a far cry from the uninspiring sound of early low end class D devices common during the early part of the last decade.
Mind you, class D has the same potential for magic and horridity as any other class of operation... It all depends on underlying active and passive componentry, sophistication of circuit design, execution, quality control, and musical/sonic goals and phylosophy of the designer/engineer.
Like with any other class of operation, some companies and designers have been more successful than other companies, and within the same company, some devices have been more successful than other ones in delivering audio nirvana at their respective price points. And some outliers still seem bent to producing an acrid sound... But isn't that true of the industry in general?!
It's worth being experimentalists and shed preconceived notions... Unavoidably, some amps we will love, and some we will hate... The important thing is to listen with our ears, and suspend judgement until we can apply our musical evaluation in situ, on a case by case basis, while avoiding the pitfalls of apriori induction logic.
Admittedly, there is one thing that a big honking class D amp might have problems achieving.... That is to turn your music room into an oven.
G. |
Hi Norm, I agree with you... If you have already evaluated in your own system a well broken in Merrill Veritas, Bel canto Black, Rowland Continuum S2, Daemon, and M825 in your system, and found them all to fall short of your nirvanic goals, then it is probably worth while for you to table bothering with class D technology for a couple of years longer.
G. |
Thank you Audiolabirynth, Veritas is a very lovely amp. Worth listening in one's own home.
Norm is a fine reviewer... BTW, we are both very fond of the HFC wire products designed by Rick Schultz in Dallas. The HFC Ultra PCs do amazing thing to my electronic components, M925 amps included.
Guido |
Hi Matt, according to my materials, there is no indication of use of an Analog Devices AD 1955 DAC chip in the Rowland Aeris. Some dated secondary internet sources mention an Analog Devices AD1853 instead.
Regardless, I continue to listen and enjoy with my ears... No Princess And The Single Bit Pea living here *grins!*
G. |
Hmmm... What would these "quality parts" be?
G. |
"Car analogies only get you so much mileage."
Geoff, I "resemble" that comment!!!! That's exactly why my next car will be the Prius 2016... 60 miles per gallon *grins!* ... With standard audio setup, BTW.
Matt.... IMO, before you indulge in further line conditioning magic etc.... Why not upgrade your Burmies PCs. The new Shunyata Sigmas are obvious contenders.... But Norm brings up an excellent point.... HFCs are relatively new contenders, and they are more than worth careful examination. I have only explored the basic CT-1 and the Ultras, and find them to be astonishingly musical, resolving, and harmonically complex. The only caveat is that for high current amplifiers one must adopt a series that does not limit current.... This probably means at least the Ultras -- which I use on my M925s -- or an even higher series.
G. |
What makes SD technology immune to jitter?
G. |
Asindc, in New Jersey where Matt lives, it is now the noon hour. There are still a full 12 hours to his Friday... I am confident that Matt will post more findings whenever he has time. Even a few more days of wait are little compared to the life of the Universe... 13.7 billion years and counting *grins!*
G.
G. |
Matt, you are a real pessimist... You do not take into account the repulsive effect of the Dark Force on the standard gravitational interaction of our Galaxy and M31. We will have some exciting times some 2 billions years from now, when we are finally able to tell if we crash into our neighbor or not.
So please.... Do squeeze in a new Orander review during the next 2 bils or so... Before everyone gets all hot and bothered making bets on the big event and forgets about servers and stuff.
G.
|
Hmmm Agear, you mean to imply that there might be more excitement than mere gain of encyclopedic knowledge gained by interfacing a Babel-fish with an ear canal?
G. |
Hi Agear, a few posts ago, you brought up an interesting technical point... Electrical and mechanical grounding. I looked this up in the Rowland Knowledge base, and here is what I found in the Aeris section....
Aeris uses very small surface mount devices (SMD). According to one article, a benefit of SMD is "allowing these components to be located as close as possible to corresponding ground planes". See:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/questions.php?questionid=622
More on Aeris grounding... "In the Aeris 6-layer PCB, two complete layers are dedicated to ground. The clock signal is isolated from the signal path by these two grounding layers. Two layers are dedicated to power distribution, and two layers are dedicated to signal distribution. As a result, the clock signal cannot be contaminated by the audio signal." ... There is more on electric grounding and 6-layer PCB design at:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/questions.php?questionid=621
On mechanical isolation of the power supplies... "Aeris is powered by two separate low noise, passive power factor corrected, switch mode power supplies (SMPS) – one for analog and one for digital. Both are housed in a single machined external enclosure for maximum mechanical and EMI/RFI isolation." See:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/questions.php?questionid=619
In general, Aeris circuit sections are buried inside isolated pockets carved in the aluminum ingot of the main chassis.... But this is nothing terribly new... Rowland has used monolythic chassis for mechanical grounding/isolation for a couple of decades.
Other manufacturers may have used totally different techniques... Of course, in the end, it really does not matter... What is important is whether we emotionally drawn by the sound of a component or we are not.
G. |
Matt said... "I am pretty sure the Rowland Aeris is also software driven. I bet that the right firmware update could make the Aeris untouchable."
You are correct Matt, Rowland Aeris is driven by a large FPGA which performes a variety of master functions, including FIFO jitter elimination and control of a 24-bit DAC module.
I have no information about what a hypothetical Aeris FPGA firmware update might achieve... Meantime, the best way to use Aeris is to feed it through SPDIF... Aeris performance is optimized through its transformer-coupled SPDIF coax input, ideally fed from a transformer-coupled source, such as the Bryston BDP1 or BDP-2 music servers.
Purely conjectural on my part, sound may be further enhanced by the use of an SSD as a storage medium, to eliminate jitter caused by inter-sector disk head seek delays.
G.
Admittedly, in the end the above does not imply that you would necessarily prefer Aeris over OverDrive or other DAC... DAC preference is, very much like paraphrasing female beauty, in the... ears of the beholder *grins!*
G |
Matt, I could not have said it better myself.... You never asserted that you were going on a quest to discover the "best" digital front end.... You stated very clearly from the very beginning that you were trying to identify the DAC component that you prefered for your own system, cabling, and musical/sonic preference... I do not understand what is so difficult about this concept folks!
Just one minor correction... The Rowland team uses Aeris with SPDIF input because they prefer its sound/music than from USB wires of the same length and brand.... The ability of running longer lengths of wiring using SPDIF 75 Ohm coax without degradation is purely icing on the audible cake.
All... Whether Empirical on SPDIF would be preferable to Aeris in a prticular system and for a particular end user, or perhaps the opposite, Is something I will not venture to guess.... I have no direct experience with OD, and any such "beliefs" have no valid foundation without live experience in a controlled environment... But all of this remains a moot point, as Matt's front end feeds a USB protocol into the DAC, and will not change in the foreseeable future.
Besides, there is a new fascinating contender in Matt's grand quest... Alex's APL DSD... Let us see how Matt likes it once it stabilizes completely.... Matt, I am very much looking forward to your well thought findings... Alex, what do you expect to be the complete break-in time for your lovely DAC?
Saluti, Guido
|
Paul79, you will find Matt's system discussed in detail at:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1386218525&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona
G. |
I agree completely with Jon2020.... At about 200/250 hours, K-01 starts becoming a very enjoyable machine... Just be aware that... "You ain't heard nopn'" yet.... There is likely to be even better to come for a spell. So, if you are not yet in rapture at this point, be patient and postpone panicking and placing an Agon ad for a while.
On the other hand, if panic / buyer's remorse could not be avoided, Do not worry about it.... Some lucky adoptive parent will pick up the "little" beauty and love its music on your behalf.
Concerning filter/upsampling settings.... I felt in my own system that 4X + S_dly2 offered a balance of resolution versus musicality that suited me. On the other hand, I might not have broken in the DSD engine to completion. Besides... A personal preference is exactly that... A personal, and often temporary matter.
Bottomline, K-01 is an amazingly flexible tool... It can deliver enjoyment to many, but not to all, within a variable amount of break-in time... Let us leave "Beliefs" and the pursuit of absolutes where they belong.
G. |
Thank you Nickolas, your findings corroborate my own experience with the Rowland Aeris.... At about 800 hours Aeris sounds "quite good", but its magic is not unleashed until the device stabilizes completely.... And that does not happen until at least the 1200 hour mark... But might be even further in time.
G. |
And if your DAC supports USB thumbdrives, 1TB USB sticks are already available. See for example this hefty Kingston
device, currently priced at Amazon for $997:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00E65QM8O/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1418496148&sr=8-1
G. |
Hi Matt, flugel (Kanstul 1525) and trumpet (Adams A4 Large Bore) are totally amazing... These days I am experimenting with mouthpieces: Curry, ACB, and soon Flip Oakes. MPs make an enormous difference on the total sound of a horn, without any of them necessarily being the "best"... Each creates a unique Nirvana.... And with prices ranging from $56 to about $350 a piece, you can experiment without too many adverse reactions from the "Bposs".
Btw, this is what my A4 sounds like, using a relatively shallow ACB TA-3CS Heavy mouthpiece:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53640097/ACB%20-%20Adams%20A4%20trumpet%20brushed%20silver%20plate%20--%20192K.wav
On battery supplies... Batteries are a draconian way to isolate a line level device from AC grundge... But is it the best way? For one thing, ultra-caps are superior at delivering broad/fast transients... Furthermore, a well designed AC supply should be able to isolate the device as much as a DC battery supply... Case in point is your/my Criterion... Sounded identical in my system, whether I fed it from batteries, or through its SMPS.
G. |
True enough, hotel rooms, larger show suites, etc.... Are not ideal.... Never the less, they are structural equalizers... They make things equally poor for everyone. Yet, in the unfavorable environment, equipment and speakers, and... professional setup make a difference.
I have fallen in love with Vienna speakers not because of their published specs or semi-technical marketing blurbs, neither because of reviews or user reportsthe, but because of the Vienna sound at RMAF, in hotel suites... structural Limitations and all. A combination of the speakers, the professional setup by Kevin Wolff and Rod Tomson, and the ancillary electronics. The end result in my system confirmed and amplified my opinions of Mahlers and Die Muzik. Needless to say, your mileage/reactions may vary.
Conversely, Vandersteen speakers did not stir my emotions, in spite that Richard V. had lovingly optimized their position and settings for the specific room acoustics, and that ancillary electronics and cabling were often brands and models that I enjoyed elsewhere. Thus, I did not feel any urgency to extend my exposure to equipment that had not caught my emotions.
Am I ever consistent with.... "on't try 'em at home unless I gathered positive audible data points already? Uhrn.... No. Hi Fidelity power cords are a case in point... Persuaded by Harve (Fplanner2000), sight unseen (or is it sound unheard) I started a review project on the CT-1 PCs a couple of weeks ago... Absolutely stunning stuff.... I will start posting my listening notes as soon as I have fixed grammar etc... But.... cables do not weigh 200 Lbs each, and do not require a team of brawny blokes to hoist them to my music loft *grins!*
G. |
Gaia forbid... Matt, I sure do not wish you to "Go gentle into that good night" of integrated powered subs, not even after listening to the immortal song by Igor Stravinsky *grins!*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yioysm8a6Js
G. |
Hi Ctsooner, at which dealer you auditioned both Daemon and the Ayre integrated side by side?
Saluti, Guido |
What can I say CalvinJ... DIe Muzik is my uber-cup of audible ambrosia.. But I recognize that what I find so immersive that it makes me forget that the outside world even exists, might leave someone else bored to the marrow.
Saluti, G. |
In my interpretation, a warm sound is a tone that has a midrange preference, and perhaps a touch of pillowiness in the mid and mid lower bass. A rich sound for me has significant exposure of harmonics throughout the range, from low bass to higher treble, without distortions.
Can a sound be warm and rich at the same time? Sure, why not?!
Can sound be neutral and rich? Again, why not?!
G.
G. |
Thank you Mitch and Al.... I concur completely with your tightening up of my original definition....
Yes Audiolabyrinth, my pref is for neutral+rich.... I often call this kind of sound "complex", which is what I usually seek... Although, I freely admit that on occasion I do fall for the seductiveness of just trace amounts of comfie pillowing in the lower mid bass... Provided the integrity of the rest of the frequency band is unaffected... Vienna Acoustics DIe Muzik anyone *Grins!*
G.
Regards, G. |
Hi Mat, at the cost of being deemed uncooth and a country bumpkin, analog is what I abandoned in 1984... And never felt the need to look back since.
As for "analog sound" done well, I have a hard time distinguishing it from "digital sound" done well... I have heard fab analog sound and fab digital sound... as much as Crappy digital sound and equally crappy analog rigs.
Yes, I have been equally enchanted/mesmerized down to my soul by complexity, and textured richness of analog front ends as much as by the same in digital front ends. "The Analog vs digital" discussion is covering in my opinion a false problem. Or at least, it is a matter that has more to do with the social sciences than engineering.
G |
