Matt - just got the new Duelund and Jupiter caps to try. Building a new version of the XMOS USB module. Diamond knob looks really nice.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - I'm not worried. SX slays them all.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Most of these clock inputs are word-clock only, which is simply a bad idea.
The Overdrive already has I2S input, which includes word-clock, bit clock and master clock. I am already using this with my Off-Ramp and soon my new Interchange network renderer. Separate external master clocks (2 needed) are only interesting if the external clocks are a lot better than the internal clocks.
A word clock output however is a much better idea. This way the DAC always becomes the master., but the source must have word-clock input and be able to sync to it.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
USB has an embedded clock, just like S/PDIF. It is used in Async interfaces only to capture the data. It is then reclocked to the S/PDIF or I2S interface. Backchannel handshake insures there is no overrun.
March availability of SX is about right.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Paul79 - I generally build my AES cables from a Belden cable that is 110 ohms. If you wanted to try one, I could build one for you. Cost is $150 for 4 footer. Email me.
Thanks,
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
CT - check Audiogon for Overdrive SX. A customer is selling his to upgrade to SX, even though its not available yet.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Another DAC to consider is the Chord. Even the Qute with my Dynamo power supply and Short-Block USB filter is really great sounding.
As for digital interfaces, the problem with USB is variability with the computer software. I think there will be less of this reliance on the computer and S/W with Ethernet renderers. This is why I have designed a renderer that is interchangeable with my USB interface in any of my products, called "Interchange". Availability summer 2014.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
The Ethernet interface plugs to any router or switch on the LAN, just like the computer connects wired.
The XMOS interface is still under debug. Latest version being tested tomorrow.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Dagogo review of the ODSE just out:
http://dagogo.com/empirical-audio-overdrive-se-usb-dacpredac-review
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Steve, can you state more information regarding this unit that will be able to be used with any of your products?"
Yes, it can be put inside the Off-Ramp or the Overdrive.
"Would a user need to send the unit to you to replace the USB card for an Ethernet card?"
Yes.
"Or is this a separate external unit, Like a Ethernet to I2S?"
No, its a module that replaces the USB module.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
My Interchange renderer will do the same thing and be priced in the $1500 range. It will have I2S, AES and S/PDIF coax outputs just like the Off-Ramp. It can be upgraded with my Dynamo power supply for $699. Available this summer.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
The problem with USB is two-fold:
1) common-mode noise on the cable that is not completely rejected by the USB receiver
2) poor software on the server device
#1 can be mitigated with filters or galvanic isolation. I have done both.
#2 can be mitigated by using a Linux-based server properly configured with good playback software and CODECs
Short of doing both of these, you will have some sonic issues with USB
If you do both, it will be identical in performance to Ethernet renderer, assuming both are implemented similarly. Implementation is everything.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Audiolab - No plans to build a streamer. I have other projects on my plate right now.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
AL - It is certainly possible to build such a server/DAC, but good SQ is expensive. Lots of isolation and separate power supplies required.
I'm not in the computer assembly business. I think my new Ethernet interface goes a long way to make the server a non-issue.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Streamers used with USB or S/PDIF outs should be Linux-based, not Windows IME. The difference in SQ between FLAC and wav goes away with Linux and a good CODEC.
The big advantage of USB out is that you don't rely on the clock in the server.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Granny - .01uFd Duelunds are even too small for bypass. You need at least .2uFd.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mitch2 - I have no experience playing AIFF with Antipodes, only Mac Mini. It is just as bad as ALAC on a Mini. Like listening through a tunnel IME.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mrpaul - if you are using the S/PDIF output on the Antipodes, changing to USB out and a good DAC interface will make all the difference. The Antipodes will sound entirely different. If you have the latest power supply upgrades, it will be really good.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mitch2 - the only thing I can recommend in your situation is the Off-Ramp 5 USB converter/Dynamo power supply and my BNC-BNC cable driving the Hex S/PDIF input. These together cost $2318.00. Just the OR5 would probably improve things though at $1299.00. Money back guarantee on all, less shipping.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mitch2 - yes, the improvement is the lower jitter master clock in the OR5.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - depends on the server. My Mac Mini beats practically every server except for the Antipodes.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
4orreal - I cannot list them here. I do business with some of these guys. Basically all PC-based servers I have heard and most Linux ones.
Thanks,
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mitch - as I said before, it is a good USB interface that makes the Antipodes rise above everything else.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mitch - a good USB interface requires special attention to power supply, power delivery, ground-plane integrity, impedance matching, logic family choice, clock oscillator choice, minimal gate-level design and of course implementation of the circuit board. These are all design skills that are not taught in college.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"The Antipodes is Unix based, while the CAT is Windows based. Any advantages to either?"
As I said before, the only OS that will give you the sams SQ for wav and FLAC is Linux.
"Also, couldn't Mitch simply use your Short Block to sever the USB power to his DAC? Or do you feel that the off-ramp is also needed to significantly improve his USB input stage?"
Short Block may improve things for him, but it will not reduce jitter to really low levels like the Off-Ramp.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
CT - Remote can be found by searching iTunes store for apps through iTunes.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
AudioL - the ODSE uses the same volume control. It does not need to get "better" IMO. Already the best out there.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
The best Hard Disks are Maxtor, and server-grade.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
For those reading this thread, the OR6 that Truaudiofile has is a prototype. He is using it with a Dynamo supply and a Power Block USB supply.
Evidently the Hi-Res problems that I had with it are not being experienced by him. He is using a TotalDAC USB cable and I think that is the difference. None of my usual USB cables seem to work well at 176 and 192.
I think I need to improve the USB receiver robustness before OR6 is ready for prime-time. I cannot expect every customer to use a TotalDAC cable....
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Audiol - it has the same volume control. It has internal jumpers if you need zero volume to be more quiet. I think mute is a better choice if you need it dead quiet. This is a part of the volume technology. it does not go to zero unless you mute.
I have used the ODSE for many years and never needed zero on the volume.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"I'm assuming the OR6 tech is integrated into the ODSX Diamond. Are you considering using the Dynamo supply and power block usb supply for the ODSX as well?"
Yes, that is the plan. The Dynamo is not needed, but the Power Block improves things.
"If we use the TotalDac usb cable, is it necessary/compatible to use the Short Block with it?"
No, it works alone. Turns out that other cables work fine afterall. Its something that I am doing....
"How goes ODSX progress?"
I have one breaking in on the bench with Jupiter caps. IT will take a few weeks to break in completely.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
If you are not a climatologist or scientist at NOAA or NASA, then you only know a tiny bit about the subject. These are the experts and it's time we acknowledged that. Believing that there is nothing you can do anyway because you are just one person is a recipe for disaster and the eventual extinction of man. This is not an exaggeration. Global warming is currently the #1 threat to mans existence, as well as many other species on the earth. This is acknowledged by at least 80% of the worlds climate scientists.
Steve N. |
The crazy thing is that the cell-phone is probably responsible for at least 90% of the idling cars in the US today. It never used to be this way. People are just on auto-pilot. They get in their cars, start them up and then proceed to sit there for 15 or 20 minutes looking at their cell-phones or talking on them. Ridiculous, wasteful and hazardous to the earth IMO. Americans (US) are the most wasteful people I have seen on the face of the earth. Sometimes I am ashamed to counted among them.
I practice what I preach too. I don't start my car until I have my seat-belt buckled and everyone is in the car with their belts buckled and I am ready to drive. I am also looking to get an electric car. This will make a significant difference in my carbon fooprint. The majority of the power here is hydroelectric.
Steve N.
Steve N. |
You can get an idea of the impact of just jet aircraft on the atmosphere by studying 9-11. All air traffic was grounded for a few days in the US. In just this few days, the atmosphere changed dramatically and it was measurable.
Unfortunately, the majority of the excess CO2 in the upper atmosphere will take 100 years to dissipate. This evidently changes slowly.
The difference on the earth now compared to two decades ago is that third-world countries are becoming developing countries. This means a lot more power generation, automobiles and more forest being cut down to grow crops and build houses. All contributing to CO2 emissions.
Another thing is that due to the more common droughts, there are a lot more forest fires now than even 10 years ago. I live in a national forest, so I have seen this first-hand. This not only puts more CO2 in the atmosphere, it takes out CO absorbing trees. Many phenomena like this one are causing global warming to accelerate beyond what it would, given only the human caused pollution.
Scientists have models that emulate and simulated the atmosphere. Both of these models show conclusively that our pollution is the major contributor to global warming. Its not just anecdotal evidence of melting ice-caps etc..
I don't use the term climate change. That would be giving in to the republican stance that it is not our doing. Similar to their stance that their policies represent what the vast majority of people in the US want. Try the vast majority of business and big money...
I think the federal government should:
1) mandate only hybrid personal vehicles be built and sold
2) outlaw fireplace use that does not create needed heat
3) shut down coal-fired power plants or convert to NG
4) make the car manufacturers put an automatic shut-off if the vehicle is in park and the outside temp is above 50 degrees F
5) make it illegal to idle your car if it is in park
Obama should be doing these things. The focus entirely on power generation is only half the puzzle.
Steve N. |
Matt - that is probably true, but there are fewer cars per capita and they don't sit in them idling.
Steve N. |
The ODSX diamond is in production. I am building 2 orders now. Some will be built with the Ethernet interface. I am ironing out the last issue with the XMOS interface. I have one built for a customer and testing with the older USB interface right now. Lead-time is around 75 days.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
The Jupiters and the Duelunds are both copper that I am using. They both have OEM pricing, but the silvers are still really expensive, like $1K each.
If you wanted to get Silver Duelunds in your DAC, it needs 4 at 1.5uFd, lowest voltage available.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"XMOS USB (which I find better than M2Tech) compared to your external ethernet to I2S converter compared to internal ethernet to I2S direct."
It will be about 3 months before I can do this comparison. I will be out of town starting March 20 for 4-5 weeks.
"What qualities do each brand of caps bring to the table in your SX design? Will you have a few units in possession and be able to directly compare simultaneously?"
I have two ODSX, one with Jupiter and one with Duelund caps that I am running currently. Either the Jupiters have really overblown bass and somewhat recessed highs, or they are not fully broken in yet. They sound great on older 70's tracks that have thin bass, but newer tracks are just over the top.
Ketcham - You are too kind with your kudos, but on the other hand I'm glad somebody finally gets what I'm about.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Wisnon wrote "DallasJustice had the Empirical Dac with all the trimmings and abandoned it for a TotalDac with Legato 16/44 transport and I think moved on to TotalDac Server and USB converter."
That is true, but realize that this was the original Overdrive and not the Overdrive SE. Big difference.
BTW, the TotalDAC USB cable is evidently the one to beat.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mattnshilp - I would be game in sending you an Off-Ramp5 and Dynamo power supply to use with the Lampi to compare with the Overdrive DAC alone. Its about $2.5K worth of stuff, so I would need another refundable deposit, but at least the Lampi would have a running chance. This is what Grannyring is proposing.
"just when I though it could not possibly sound any better"
-my wife
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Erik - the advantage of the Aurilic Aries IMO is the Ethernet/network interface. If it uses a minimal Linux kernel to generate and output USB, then it may sound better than a computer, maybe not. All of this effort to reduce jitter in the source device is unnecessary if the output is S/PDIF, AES or I2S. The issue here is generating USB to make it compatible with USB DACs.
The best way to do Ethernet is to go directly to I2S and avoid the S/W and H/W overhead of USB entirely. This is what my new "Interchange" module does. Interchange can be swapped in to replace any of my Async USB interface modules, on my Off-Ramp converters or Overdrive DACs. It gives you wired Ethernet direct to I2S, supporting up to 384kHz and double DSD, just like the Aries. WiFi can be added with an external device, but I suspect most will use it wired. It is DLNA, so some of the extra features of the Aries are not supported.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Time to try direct to amps with all of the DACs. How about this weekend?
Have you tried the Final Drive yet with the preamp?
BTW, here is what I would recommend for room treatments:
1) to eliminate HF sidewall reflections, put Sonex panels, 3'X5' on the spots where you see the tweeters when putting a small mirror on the wall and looking from the listening position. If these do not pass the WAF, then look to absorbing panels from GIK acoustics with graphics on them. I have some of these as well with a nice Fender guitar printed on it:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-artpanel-acoustic-panels/
2) get two ASC 1/4 round tubetraps, as tall as your tweeters:
http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/tube-traps
Place these just behind your speakers (2" behind) with the inside curved surface faced inward. Start with the flat surface parallel and in line with the speaker inner facing side. Then "tune" by rotating the left one counter-clockwise and the right one clockwise. At some point you will get razor-sharp focus, but too much rotation will compromise the width of the soundstage. Rotate them back until you have just the right mix of width beyond the speakers edges and sharp focus of the vocalist in the center. If you have a reflective surface like a TV screen, these will eliminate the effect of it by scattering the back-wave from the speakers. This is a very effective treatment for both imaging and bass that I have used at shows and at home for years.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Steve, have you considered/tried adding a volume control to the Final Drive?"
I have. I can get an autoformer for the steps in attenuation. The problem is that it does not solve the problem for ALL DACs. Many do not have low output impedance, so they lack drive. What I would rather do is a preamp with a combination of active gain and transformer coupling, so I get low output impedance, galvanic isolation and true balanced output. Next project (I have so many on my plate...)
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Everything was set properly (confirmed with Steve) but even with the volume control knob activated and on its most counter-clockwise position (supposed to be zero output) I was still getting a decent amount of volume through the speakers"
The Overdrive volume technology does not go to zero volume. This is normal. It has internal jumpers that can reduce this more, but if a normal listening level is at 9-12:00 on the dial, this is perfect. Muting can always be used if you want it quiet. It is better to have better control of listening volume IMO. A knob that goes from quiet to really loud in just a few degrees of rotation is not good IMO.
Some amps will sound better with a preamp than the FD. Its not really the difference between the Overdrive volume and the preamp that you are hearing. Its the fact that the preamp has a lower output impedance and the amps like this more. Its possible to wire the FD's to lower the volume by 6dB and lower the impedance of the Overdrive by a factor of 4. This would probably help here.
I would also like to hear what the effect of putting the Final Drives between the DAC and preamp. It is usually placed at the DAC, but can also be at the destination. The transformer is grounded to the destination.
Thanks,
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Finally, I will try the ODSE to Criterion to Veritas as I have been, but add in the Short Block (which, from what I understand, basically divides the small dc USB power from the line which helps to improve sound."
The SB should always be used with the Overdrive. It filters out the common-mode noise from the computer and ground-loops, improving SQ. The side effect of this filtering is that the 5V power in the USB cable is compromised. Rather than selling something that compromises USB power, I just cut the power wire and limit the use of the SB to products that do not use the power in the USB cable like the Overdrive. Because a high inductance is inserted in the ground wire between computer and DAC, it is important to plug the DAC and the computer into the same AC outlet. Using some power conditioners that add even more inductance in the earth ground can be problematic. They usually don't help with digital power anyway. A solution like the Plasmatron from VHaudio.com makes more sense and improves SQ significantly for digital.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Steve, as we both know, S/PDIF is a very jittery interface when it comes to a Master Clock recovery."
Alex - That used to be the case, but with the latest receiver chips, good transformers, good circuit design/layout and a good 75 ohm cable, it is just as transparent as a good USB interface. I am using right now my prototype Off-Ramp 6 XMOS interface driving my DAC with S/PDIF coax and its the best digital I have ever heard. Beats everything I have done previously. It matches my I2S for performance too.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"His claim that with 192 option selected there is no oversampling is not exactly correct, at least to my knowledge."
I never made such a claim. Show me the post.
My Overdrive does no upsampling and the filters are selectable so that you can select the 192 filter when playing 44.1 tracks, resulting in minimal damage and approximating NOS DAC behavior.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
APL wrote:
"Yes you are using Op Amps for I/V conversion, but the Berkeley example has them all the way, from DAC chip to output."
Op-amps are far from perfect, even though the textbooks would lead you to believe it. However, like most things, the answer is "it depends". It depends on how the power for the op-amp is treated and what op-amp you are using. I have done a lot of experimenting with op-amps in the past and learned a lot of things that are not in the textbooks. If you choose the right one and treat it properly in the design, it can be just as good as a discrete circuit and sometimes better because the layout of most discrete circuits does not allow for optimum power delivery. The compact nature of chips allows for optimum power delivery.
"Further more, claiming that S/PDIF is best as well as DSD to PCM conversion (even done by a computer) is way out of line, at least in my experience. "
I never claimed that S/PDIF is the best method for DAC input, but again the answer is "it depends". If the circuit is well-designed, a good coax cable is used and the right receiver chip is used, it can be every bit as good as the best internal USB interface. So close that no one can pick it out in A/B comparison. I have done this.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"I'm Sorry. Can you explain the benefit of Ethernet over USB?
I'm having a hard time processing what the advantages are."
Its Ethernet only, no USB. Ethernet is packetized and has retry error correction. It treats all data the same, unlike USB, which uses a streaming mode for audio.
"Doesn't this all come down to Jitter and clocking?"
IT always does, however there are other considerations. Because USB uses more of the computer OS audio stack and Ethernet uses none of that, this is the advantage. Also, USB is not packetized and has no error correction/retry like Ethernet.
"Wouldn't the ideal server be connected to a DAC that shares a single external high end clock?"
The ideal DAC uses a high-quality internal clock for master clock.
"Steve, does your ODSX have inputs for an external clock?"
Yes, actually. The I2S input provides the external clock(s).
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"He was telling me that USB sucks as a connection and that AES is the best if you find a DAC that has it and that their 5k unit uses a BNC s/p diff connection."
USB sucks if the design is poor, just like anything else that is poorly designed.
"He said that any DAC is DSD capable with some program from JRiver and that it's marketing BS saying a dad is DSD capable ( believe that's how he put it)."
Jriver can convert DSD to PCM for the non-DSD DAC, but there are DACs that are truly DSD capable, and double DSD.
"I don't want to go back and reread this whole thread so my question is where do we stand on DACS under 5k?"
Favorites are Bryston, Sony HA series, Metrum Hex, Resonnesence.
"What about what the Baetis guy told me? He also said that digital cables make a HUGE difference compared to analog and I fully believe cables are huge and always have heard a big difference."
S/PDIF, AES and USB cables all make a big difference.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
