If you use a computer as source, the current rages are HQPlayer upsampled to DSD256 in Windows ASIO or Windows Server 2012R2 in CORE mode.
I have been told that straight USB beats any converter with these two approaches, so maybe the low hanging fruit is optimization of software filtering, or killing needless computer background processes. |
Yes, but too complicated to get into here. Phil from AO has spent over 3 years on this problem alone and he is a full time IT guy and gave me a lot of insight.
Suffice to say TIMING is maybe the most important thing in audio and he uses only Windows SERVER OS and encourages a SERVER class motherboard.
Its well and good that some people talk about server being optimsed, but they really have to say HOW in detail.
I dont want to belittle filter tech and POWER supply, as those are critical too. |
If your Dac cant handle DSD or in any case has its sweetspot at 24/88, then buy thta! |
Technics is back with a bang too! |
Guido, here:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/poland2014/17.html
and here
http://soundrebels.com/artykuly/reportaze/item/464-audio-show-2014-cz-2 |
Yes, the best thing about the Invicta is the built in SDXC TRANSPORT. This is the cleanest transport out there, really. I wish 1TB cards were out and were affordable. |
Its $52K, so….U can expect a lot for that.
I heard it with PSA Transport and Vivid Giya speakers.
It was very good, but the music was unfamiliar as were the speakers.
All this is a matter of taste, but the Trinity has a lot of cool tech inside. Analog oversampling, Lianotec, etc. |
Scott, is it your opinion that the internall SSD sounds better than an SDxc card? I was told otherwise, but have no direct experience.
The thing is that a 500GB SDXC card in now about GBP400 and in a year or 2, 1 TB will likely cost that amount. That means that one can hace one's ENTIRE library in the top pocket with say 5 to 6 1TB SDXC cards and these cards are not constantly shifting data around for efficiency sake like HDDs and SSDs and are ligtning fast, as evidenced by their use in hi-speed photography.
Your considered opinion is welcome. |
Matt,
How can you NOT know CAD? They are a top quality British digital audio player. LoL |
Thanks for the comment Scott.
For me, the beauty of the card solution is the non-shifting data, the ability to handle data rapidly and most importantly, the ability to travel with your ENTIRE music collection in your wallet. Ultimate MOBILITY!
Price? just give it 2 years….
The tech is reminiscent or the Porzilli "Memory Player".
Keep on making your good stuff. Knowledgeable people (in the industry) have given your products the thumbs up. |
The amps are not SOTA, as they essentially use the Threshold STASIS tech, which was an adaptation of current dumping. Class a voltage combined with class D current. The older techs used class B current.
The complaint about Devialet is that they dont work that well with very hard to drive speakers. Their SAM tech does make them a flawless matchup to normal speajkers that have been SAM optimized though.
This is great turnkey stuff, but you have to buy into the Devialet eco-system, which currenly means no DSD and even if it comes later could likely NOT be pure DSD.
Get Devialet and one can just forget about Nervosa. |
I got it from actual listening at Shows and from persuing forums like A-Asylum. There is a huge current dumping thread there.
I was interested in getting a Nakamishi Stasis amp once upon a time, as I know of Nelson Pass accomplishment with Stasis power. A UK audio industry buddy also told me about the hybrid amp tech and how they developed it.
BTW, I did not even visit Goldmund until mid-2013, so you are barking up the wrong tree. What would they know about Current Dumping anyway?
I also resent your implication that I cant think for myself and apply critical reasoning. Methinks you are the one swayed here by bling. |
Andrew, did you read post 135?
Those people were wrong. Cant see the forest for the trees. Class A voltage, Class B or Class D current drive. Simples.
All the engineering egghead speak cant get away from that helicopter view.
Been there, done that, bought the T shirt. |
How can there be a guess from them, when I didnt meet the people till a year later and I dont even know the technical people there? The tread clearly shows a 2012 discussion.
Quit while you are ahead, you are spreading misinformation. It seems you cant see the Forest for the trees either.
No one said Devialet does not sound good…I heard it since 2012 and I do agree that Phantom is true break thru stuff, if it sounds as good as they say. The hybrid amplification is not, its just evolutionary and it does have problems driving hard to drive speakers, hence then going for more power in the 400.
Dont care what Matt or the wifey says, it does not change reality. Sorry. |
Nelson Pass developed STASIS Power for Threshold from the 1990s, and licensed the tech to Nakamishi. Those vintage amps still command a good price as the tech is well proven. Class A voltage to sweeten the sound, class B or now Class D current drive. Great marriage of SQ while having efficient grunt. Clearly Class D is significantly more efficient than Class B. Evolutionary, not revolutionary.
Having patents does not necessarily mean true breakthru, it just means you do things slightly differently than what has been patened before. Many ways to skin a cat. |
|
Actually a used Pacific Microsonics PM2 DAC/ADC will likely cost more than $20K used! |
Please be aware that the Signature Rendu is not the same as the regular (basic) Rendu ($1200 or so). It is an all out assualt and the key is the PDN design by John Swenson who is well known online. I copy Paste Barrows explanation. He consults for Sonore and PS Audio.
barrows - 01-07-2015, 11:18 PM Report Post Reply
Hi folks, let me give some technical information about the differences between the Rendu and the Signature Rendu. The Signature Rendu uses a transformer which is ~4 times the price of the transformer in the Rendu. The Signature Rendu uses (2) oscillators (clock circuits) which ~10 times the price of the ones in the Rendu. The Signature Rendu comes in a beautiful custom chassis (made in USA) costing ~6 times more than the Rendu chassis.
OK, so above you can get an idea on some of the parts costs increases. Here are the technical details which make the Signature Rendu sound better: 1. transformer is high quality Plitron Toroid, and it is cased in a sub-enclosure to guard against EM leakage.
2. the power supply is more robust, uses special ultra fast/ultra soft diodes, has more smoothing capacitance, and uses premium quality parts in all positions. 3. The Signature Rendu adds an additional output-reclocking board. This board holds the oscillators, the isolators, and the re-clocking and SPDIF/I2S output circuitry. This board is the key to the performance increase over the regular Rendu. The output board is isolated from all noise generated on the Ethernet receive board (high speed processor noise). On the output board clean clock signals are generated without interference from the Ethernet board. All signals are re-clocked just before output from the clean clocks.
OK, so how much difference sonically??? That is for the user to decide, as in all things with high end audio, there are diminishing returns: higher performance comes at a exponentially higher price. The original Rendu is very good, the Signature is better. The Signature is for the person looking for the best SPDIF/I2S source for their DAC, without compromise. Many people might be happy with the original Rendu. But do not listen to the Signature if you want to get the original.
I consult for Simple Design/Sonore. |
I am not sure that Dac with Ethernet port is a good idea if the barrier from the crud that packetized data like Ethernet (and USB) brings gets thru.
The idea behind the SSR I mentioned above is to stop that cold and get to spdif (OK) or better yet i2S. The Transport has been the neglected stepchild for far too long.
Please read the post by Barrows I linked above very carefully to understand the KEY point I am making. |
Guido,
In addition to the constant bit shuffling to facilitate speed optimization, there seems to be power related issue too that you can flesh out from this thread:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/battery-powered-solid-state-drive-tweak-really-works-23292/
SD cards are already optmised for streaming. Just look at the high speed photography/video market. Audio is thus trivial for SD card tech.
Keith, again I remind you that a Streamer is still in the digital domain, so no chance of an analog vol control there. You would need an embedded Dac to first convert to analog. Only analog can go straight to norml power amps. |
Also, to do a proper streamer Dac, analog preamp, one would need an army of programmers and support staff to maintain, support and inprove the control point software...those neat apps that everyone loves.
Lumin and Auralic have like 20+ such people on their staff. Yes, there are generic version of such software that can be used, but the support requirements would kill a one man operation... |
Not so sure that Ethernet connection will last. Too many pitfalls connecting to a NAS(ty) for ultimate performance.
Drive capacity goes up as prices fall.
Who wouldnt like their entire library in the top pocket for absolute total mobility?
My 2cents |
Matt,
I am going to have a full day listning session with the Dartzeel Ethernet dac/Integrated amp (the one soon to be released) in 2 weeks, i will let you know.
USB stick is a no-no for ultimate performance and NAS(ties) have too many issues in terms of signal degrading connections. Packetized data gives problems.
Ultimate performance (IMHO- informed by some insiders I know and respect) will come from optimized SSDs and SDXCs, BUT not sure they should be in the dac box. Given that, all this may end up in the speaker, like Linn Xact, Devialet Phantom or Goldmund Metis lines.
What does Linn Marketing say? The speaker IS the source. LoL
Just MHO and food for thought. |
A Streamer Dac is not the same as a pure streamer! I have said this repeatedly. A pure Streamer is a digital device and can have only digital volume control.
I dont understand the confusion here, as I never said a Streamer Dac cant do analog VC. A Dac must be in the chain to get to analog and to thus have analog VC.
Lumin is a DAC, this Krell mentioned above is a Dac. No problem to have analog VC with a DAC, no matter what other upstream functions are in the box.
Devialet amps are Streamer/Amp/Dac and I am pretty sure they have analog VCs. Others like Goldmund have the speakers with built in amp and Dacs an you use a digital processor to stream to them. |
Sorry to hear about the paternal losses.
I lost mine last year and have not been the same since. You really lose a part of you…
Best wishes to both of you, even you Matt after all these years…the pain never fully goes away.
CStooner, treasure the remaining moments. |
Matt,
The Aries will also play from a connected USB HDD, so its can be a complete Server!!! The app is great and there are several tweaks that can can done.
I will let you know how the modders get on. I am expecting one to be a slam dunk! |
Matt,
A-L wants the Lumin with ANALOG volume control.
I agree that Devialet with AIR streaming built in is the most "one box" solution out there as it even has power amps at the end. Streamer/Dac/Integrated amp all in one box. Very attractive bling box too.
Matt, what no Laufer teknik MEMORY Player?
http://www.thememoryplayer.net/ |
For the DSD-heads out there, Linux does not yet have a driver that can handle DSD256 and above. That means that for the HQ Player upsampling crowd, this is a no-no for now. Windows is the only way to go.
Windows 2012 with Audiophile Optimiser is Core mode is Exceedingly good and now that people are getting this to work with HQP, many have found their Nirvana.
AL, a streamer just streams data, no storgae. Add on storage and it becomes a Server. That is why Aries will become a Server with the addition of the USB HDD input. It will also stream from a NAS and do the Tiday, radio thing. it will not rip CDs like many Servers do, including the expensive buut phenomenal Memory player made by the tempermental genious Mark Porzilli.
The MemoryPlayer has lots of proprietary tech like Read until right(RUR), IDEAS (jitter reduction), D2D, 64bit playback and Jukebox.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue65/memoryplayer.htm
|
HChil,
You can PM me at Audiocircle, Compaudiophile or Audioshark dot org to follow up. |
AL:
I forgot...a local pal of mine has lent me his Bryston BDP2 for a couple months.
I will let you know how that pans out when I set it up and put it thru the paces.
For me though, anything that cant do DSD128 is a non-starter. |
No...
I am working on getting an experienced person to do it. This needs pro tools. |
Matt: do search on ebay for "display tubes"
AL,
I use modded SqBox Duet, MacMini, MB Air, CD transports, SACD player, SqBox Touch.
I will likely get an Aries and mod that heavily, and perhaps a Caps server to do HQP DSD upsampling. |
AL
I spend the day listining to a pre-production version of the darTZeel LHC-208 (Danlogue). It is a 200wpc ethernet streaming Dac/integrated amp….and it kicks butt! VERY smooth Dac that soundly beat my Chord Qute EX with Hynes LPSU. Its has a lovely analog sound and plays all up to DSD128.
And the best part is that it will cost less than $14K. Extremely cheap for Dartzeel.
The worst part?
It wont be ready before at least 1 month and only 50 units in the frst batch and there are over 100 form orders already.
This will sell like hot-cakes. |
AL,
Music Vault is good stuff, i am told by my pal Playintheblues. |
I was fortunate to hear the first GG Dac for several hours a month ago. You will be in for a treat!
DSD256 is da bomb. |
Matt, I see that Lampi will be in several rooms at Axpona, so you can satisfy your curiosity there. There will be Big7s and the Golden Gate Dac flagship showing.
The rooms are detailed in the Lampi section at Audiocircle forum. Lukasz will be there too, in person. |
Thanks Matt, good roundup. |
The MM3 speakers are awesome. I have heard them driven by the Dartzeel 468 monoblocs at full tilt.
The only other such outright onslught that compares would be the new Goldmund Anattas with their Mimesis 32.5 processor with full Proteus DRC/DSP implementation.
Both setups had unrestrained dynamics. With the MM3, we did both Digital and vinyl, and with the Goldmund, just RBCD via Disc spinner.
Not sure you will find anything to beat the MM3 driven by the right electronics. The cheaper MMini 2 speakers are also outstanding....I have to agree with Stereomojo there. |
I agree Metrella. They HAVE done a fair deal recently, but not as prolific as before. I heard that James was not well at one point. Lets see what they do for Axpona. |
Regen regenerates the USB signal completely with a high signal integrity, so that it does not induce Dac side packet noise. Low signal integrity creates problems in the power distribution network (and PHY) of the USB receiver and hence generates packet noise Dac side.
It should benefit all USB recievers, as this goes beyound galvanic isolation. The music signal itself carries the packet noise (same for ethernet) and this is what induces the similar corresponding noise Dac side.
Low jitter clock and clean PDN are just elements needed for high signal integrity, not the raison d' etre per se. |
Definittion of PHY here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PHY_(chip)
The other point I missed is that they use thick multi-lyares for the Regen board as this helps with SI as well (not sure how, as Swenson does not tell us everything).
Cstooner, I cant answer if Regen will be better than the shortBloc or if a combo would be better tha both together. I have the Aubisque filter and did not notice any improvement when placing that on the end of the generic USB cable before entering the Regen. I THINK I noticed an improvement when using the Corning+Regen, but now I should try the Corning+Aubisque+Regen. A pal uas my iPurifier, so cant try that for the moment. |
Yes, agreed AL, the cable mod comes from Corning experience and led them to add resistors in the Regen board at the ground connection. This is somewhat greater than 3 ohms, so it increases the resistance all going to Ground. Its not really impedance matching per se, but I could not explain it any better than that. The other point about lowering overall Dac side impedance is another matter entirely, but is somewhat addressed by the Regen as well...cant recall how now.
And yes the 4 layer PCB is for impedance matching...though even that is part of the overall SI goal, IIRC. |
Oh and yes, impedance lowering is another key as well as matching. that is why version 2 works better. The extra resistors in the new amber regen >3ohms, seem to match the impedance of the cable connecting to the regen better and as a consequence the bass improves. Corning optical/usb cable seemed to have elements of this in its design and was a great match for the older Regen ver 1. |
And:
JohnSwenson
Due to the large number of questions I'm not going to quote each one here, I hope I cover them all.
The isolation between computer and DAC was not a primary focus of what I am talking about now. Test I did seem to show this is not as big an issue as many previously supposed.
This post is primarily about the impact of the PDN on the generation of PS noise at sensitive chips in a DAC (main oscillator, DAC chip). In particular how a packetized data delivery (USB, Ethernet) significantly exacerbates this. Primarily because the packetized system produces current through the PDN with a much greater bandwidth than non-packetized systems (say I2S). Producing PDN to work well over this wide bandwidth is MUCH harder than for a non-packetized system.
On the question of WiFi: it is also a packetized system, and because of all the processing going on in WiFi, probably much worse than straight wired Ethernet.
On isolation, I have been including full isolation between digital sections and mixed signal sections for many many years. I do not use optical isolators, I do not like them at all, I prefer the GMR (Giant Magneto Resistive) isolators made by NVE. I think they work way better than opto isolators.
The important question here is how come an isolator doesn't completely fix things, it seems at first glance that having completely isolated power networks for the digital side and the mixed signal side (I'm calling it mixed signal because there are digital signals (I2S data, clocks) AND analog signals (output from the DAC chips) in the same power domain) should prevent PS noise from going between them. If the power domains were truly isolated they would, BUT the domains are NOT completely isolated, the data is going between them! This is the part that is usually forgotten in these types of discussions.
I hope I can convey what is happening here, let's follow a pulse through an isolator between domains and see what happens. Let's assume a real "dirty" digital side, a lot of ground plane noise and power supply noise, and noise riding on top of the digital signal. Lets look at the isolator, it has power and ground connections on the "dirty" side that run the driver that produces the whatever crosses the "barrier" (light, magnetic field, radio waves, whatever). The noise also modulates the "threshold" looking at the input signal. These and the noise and jitter in the signal all add up to a pretty large amount of variation in the field crossing the barrier.
On the other side of the barrier you have a much cleaner supply driving the receiver circuit, but the noisy field is going to cause a current in the receiver. Thus noise on the dirty side is going to cause current noise on the clean side as well. The isolator designers try and make them so the physical properties of the receivers have some form of thresholding so this transmitted noise is decreased, but a fair amount still gets through, and it is greater at the low frequency side. But that is not all, the data, the signal you WANT to cross the barrier, also causes current to flow through the PS pins of the clean side of the isolator, and that signal has a lot of jitter on it by now.
When the packet noise on the dirty side of the barrier is low, the current noise of the isolator will be lower, when the packet noise is high, the current noise of the isolator will be high. So even though the power supplies are completely separate, packet noise on the dirty side can still make it through an isolator and show up as current noise on the "clean side". If the PDN is very low impedance over a very wide bandwidth this current noise will produce very little voltage noise. If the PDN is not so great, there will be some significant voltage noise. It usually will be reduced from what it was on the dirty side, but still definitely there.
Yes putting a whole tracks worth of data in ram, shutting down the packet interface, and grabbing the data out of ram at the audio sample rate should help this, but this is frequently done by a processor and it's memory, that processor is usually producing it's own set of current noise which can cross the barrier. To be really effective it would take a system where the source (whatever it is) fills up the buffer then completely shuts down, nothing drawing power AT ALL from then on, the only thing drawing power is the counter walking through the ram and the ram itself. You definitely would want a simple ram structure, not something like a DDR3 DIMM which has all kinds of stuff going on all the time. The data from the RAM goes over the isolator and on to the DAC chip. This would probably be a very effective isolation scheme, but I don't think anybody has actually ever implemented this.
I have been doing some more experiments on this in the last week and have some results to share. I was working with the USB regen Alex mentioned, with the first version I was able to clearly see the packet noise on a scope. I made a new version with an improved PDN, this seemed to work, I could not see any packet noise any more, noise was still there but I could not discern any modulation due to the packet frequency. It sounded significantly better. Later I did some crude PDN analysis and discovered there was a raising in the impedance over a certain frequency range. I figured out I could fix this by adding a single capacitor in the right place. I soldered in that cap and started listening and was startled in the magnitude of the improvement in SQ. The noise looked identical with and without the capacitor, the sound significantly improved.
So I think I am on the right track, but it looks like I have already gone beyond what the simple measurements I was doing could detect. Next is to do these tests with the spectrum analyzer, it will probably be able to detect the packet noise buried in the over all noise floor.
I hope that answers some of the questions.
John S. |
Hi Paul,
Joseph Audio has a great rep. Never heard them though. |
Matt has crafted and maintained a very interesting thread.
It is an entire circle in and of itself. |
Old UnitedHomeaudio website, from when they used to carry the brand:
http://www.unitedhomeaudio.com/id101.htm |
You can also look at Eficion, Lansche, Stenheim Alumine and Ref (love them), S-F Strads, Vienna Acoustics Klimt - The Music, etc...
I dont really like W-Benesche when I heard em...The Cardinals. |
Mike Lavorgna did a great write up on the Sound Galleries room:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/lampizator-hq-player-audiopax-avante-garde-digital-done-right |
Wow, quite a list. Thanks for the reply.
What did you think of the Kawero, Polymer, Zellaton, YG and Vivid? Those are the ones that strike my fancy best from the list.
Any plans to audition the Goldmund Logos, Boenicke W8, Acoustic Zen Crescendo II, and Franco Serblin Ktemas? |
