Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD


Hi All.

Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.

I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.

Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?

All opinions welcome.

And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.

Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
mattnshilp

Showing 50 responses by agear

08-28-14: Phasecorrect
...there have been a lot fewer "quantum leap" products than the industry will care to admit...

true, true. particularly in the digital domain.
08-28-14: Tbg
Agear, yes I did guess wrong it seems, but we will see in five years.

I have several comments. One is that I know you can get the old Tripoint Troys for a very good price, but I recently got a Troy Signature and will tell you that it is far superior, especially with the Troy SE grounding cables. I didn't say, however, that it wasn't more expensive.

Then there is the Tripoint Emperor which is outrageously expensive but to believe the AE show in Hong Kong reports just unbelievable.

The Signature was my goal. I have read all the verbiage about the Emperor. Crazy. I actually spent time with Miguel and the BMC boys at Axpona in Atlanta a few years back. We did an after hours demo, and it was impressive. Speakers were Lansche at the time.

With regard to your comment about the Lord willing and the creek don't rise, I'm soon to be 76 so I don't wait for anything.

I can see that! You are my Dad's age. He retired from the Biochemistry department at the University of Virginia about 7 years ago. He is no audiophile. Its birds, gardening and photography and streamed classical via a Sonos I bought him....
08-31-14: Aplhifi-usa
Matt,

DSD-S will come back to you with its output stage biased with twice higher current compared to what it was before.

Also now it has Zero oversampling for PCM, compared to 8x oversampling earlier.

This made a good difference during experiments using all-solid state amplification here, so I've decided to see if you will hear it as an improvement in your system, or not. :-)

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Alex, you have a name for yourself modding transports like the Esoteric. What would be needed to bring it up to snuff, and similarly, would could or should Matt do to bring his Mini up to snuff?
08-31-14: Mattnshilp
Erikminer - thank you for spending more of my money. Something I didn't need any help with... Lol.

I will look into the Aurilic. Does it pull files out of my iTunes folder or do I need a separate designated folder?

Erik strikes me as an instigator and one who enjoys making waves....

It does not pull from iTunes. You either use a NAS or install something like Minimserver (free) on your Mac to communicate with the Aries. Easy breezy. Being lazy, I chose the later.....
09-10-14: Audioengr
"Could that be BS since they sell the pricey outboard unit?"

IMO, yes. Implementation is everything.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

+1
Matt, what specific DSD have you heard to date? Is it only the upsampling entities such as the Meitner or Directstream? Looks like you still need to hear the Aesthetix piece.

Also, next Saturday I'm picking up a 2013 Porsche Boxster S PDK/sport chrono pack/active suspension management & torque vectoring. Got it certified pre-owned for a steal!

I am sure your wife will be thrilled....;/
9-07-14: Bander
Yes really gentlemen, comments re Mattnshilp's wife are inappropriate at best. Those who post such comments clearly don't get. Let it be a learning experience for you.'Wife' comments are sexist, and disrespectful. I'll stop here.

Lord have mercy. What a serious (and PC) crowd. It was actually a subtle car joke albeit a sexist one.
09-08-14: Mattnshilp
Your a strange man AGear.....

Nothing new to report. Hoping I have some time wed to do some listening. I must be crazy. Considering my abject lack of free time, I should just invest in a good pair of ear buds and load up my iPhone and give up....

But I won't!

Unlike Joecasey, there is a method to my madness. If you lived with my wife, you would be in an endless state of jihad too. Did you get my car joke yet?

An iPod with a good set of buds is very pleasing as is ambient music via a Sonos. In my weaker moments, I share the same sentiment....
09-09-14: Audiowoman
Ah hah Grannyring- there you have it - the power of words. Tell your wife I'll be looking forward to the next installment!

An elegant economy of words Audiowoman. Me likey.

Heather loved Bill's wife's blog as well and asked if she could make contributions. Maybe it could be a collective affair....not sure how I feel about that....
09-08-14: Charles1dad
Mtruong34,
Different perspectives I imagine. You're unmarried, I've been very happily married 27 years. My wife has a wonderful wit and sense of humor and would understand Agear's context and find the comments funny.Agear your wife seems to have a wry sense of humor and gets it. Neither would need well meaning but condescending defense of their gender. They can handle it and dish it out.
Charles,

Well said Charles.

My wife is an acid tongued shrew who will verbally castrate you in a moments notice. PC underwear or not, you are still a dweeb in her site Mrtruong.

I made the mistake of taking her to Axpona a few years ago, and I never heard the end of it.
09-09-14: Hchilcoat
Hi there Agear! I loved your description of your wife's comments. I showed them to my wife and she asked if she could have her email.

She looked over as I was typing this (she calls it Audiogon yellow) and asked:

"do all the audio dweebs come out at night"?

My 11 year-old son saw this and said "But you're not a dweeb dad". So there is still hope for me.

Howard! Good to hear from you. I will PM you Heather's email. As for your son's comment, he won't realize the truth until he leaves home for good....:/
09-10-14: Charles1dad
Agear,
your wife sounds a lot like mine. Very intelligent, great sense of humor and never a dull moment. Grannyring, the same could be said of your wife as well. We're lucky guys.
Charles,

Thank you Charles. She is a jewel. I am blessed....
09-10-14: Erikminer
Matt.. The first review of the new Berkley Reference Dac was just posted on Computer Audiophile.. I don't think you should read it ...

He has had a longstanding love affair with Berkley as has the audio press. What has changed from a design and/or sonic standpoint?
As music servers become more robust and user friendly I believe computers may become less prominent for an audio source and USB may go away.

I think that more reference DAC manufacturers may avoid a USB input over time if music servers become the reference level, fluid user interface source that they should be.

Interesting times.

+1....
09-10-14: Aplhifi-usa
Lastly, it is always strange to me that, most audiophiles are professionals in certain field, but they never fail to give "expert opinions" for audio. Just amazing! :-)

How dare you!....

That could not be more true. Physicians (and possibly engineers) are the worst offenders.....
Almarg, Mattnshilp, and Jwm, I celebrate the fact that you have embraced your feminine sides. The world would be a better place if more men chose this path...like a Jungian, psychoanalytic balancing of opposites. Furthermore, when you take a corner at speed, you are less likely to spill that skinny, double caramel macchiato
09-10-14: Joecasey
We all drive sport cars for a reason. I enjoy the art/involvement of driving. Later Porsches are definitely superior and easier to drive fast but sometimes I enjoy the rawness of older models. Looking for add a 993, last of air cool and a nice bridge

Joecasey is an a--hole, but I actually agree with the above. Like many audiophiles, I am a closet car guy. My bias has been towards vintage German mobiles, including a 1991 (E34) BMW M5 with Dinan stage II suspension, Dinan chip and UUC motorwerks short shifter, 1989 BMW 735i, 2001 E55 Mercedes, BMW 2008 550is, and a 2005 911. Correct if I am wrong, the newer models leave me cold. Despite the technological leap forward, the quality seems to have sagged. I recently test drove the current generation of Porsches including a Cayman S with PDK, and I was underwhelmed. I found the shorter wheelbase annoyingly bouncy and the PDK soulless. Its just another step in the evolution of driverless cars. The real deal killer for me is the aesthetics. It is part of that lineage of dainty, effeminate mobiles such as the Audi TT and Miata......:/
Jafox, you are very methodical and analytical. Remind me again about your background? Science? Most audiophiles give mental/verbal ascent to this, but behaviorally we are compulsive cream puffs. I think a lot of these dacs (Lampizator or not) can sound good with due diligence. There is a thread on "the best speaker you have ever heard," and someone recently made a comment that the amp-speaker interface was critical. I can make my current speaker sound like rat piss with just an amp change.

This hobby is supremely annoying, and I think I am running out of steam...:| This gives MY WIFE much joy!
A good acid test for any piece of digital gear is piano. It is the hardest instrument to replicate. The Lampizator 7 is the best I have heard to date. Another L7 owner has a child who is an accomplished pianist, and he has the same impression through both headphones (of which he has many) and big boy audiophile grade speakers. Jafox said something similar regarding his L6. So, it is all about implementation and system building. The dac has no sound of its own.

Matt, I gave you a little guff about the car choice, but the new piano purchase for your bambino thrilled me. I cannot wait to do the same. Instead of comparing dacs to one another, hold them up to that candle one by one....
09-11-14: Mattnshilp
Agear, I resent that.... My double caramel macchiato is never skinny!

Truth be told, it's a Grande Vanilla Latte with 3 equals. :P

Ha! Now that's a beverage. For the record, your Cayman/Boxter is a better engineered vehicle. The 911 has a big butt that is easy to spin out. It is just a sentimental thing for me....like a tubed dac....
09-12-14: Joecasey

Agear doing what Agear does best. Audio Benghazi. Unfortunately we're not sure what his particular cause is....: until after the election. Impeach and trial him for MURDER!

my assessment of your character remains unchanged....
09-13-14: Aplhifi-usa
Well, IMHO, Trinity and Lampzator can be compared as German and Polish women. :-)

Cold strict and quick, as opposed to warm slow and romantic. :-)

My opinion of course based on internal pictures.

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

I presume that Bulgarian women are somewhere in the middle like your dac....?
09-27-14: Mattnshilp
Did anyone else go to the NY/Brooklyn show and come back disapointed?

Lampy was there, but had some speaker issues early on, which closed him room for most of the time I was there. It was opened at the end and I listened, but nothing grabbed me or blew me away…

Totem/Diavalet room sounded great. As did the new Kef Blade II with Parasound. Legacy Audio had speakers making good performances in a few rooms. Not much really reached out and grabbed me, and nothing came close to the sound I get from my own room at home. I guess that's a good thing…

Shows are always frustrating and often misleading. I know stuff that sounds great sound bad at a show. I had one friend who liked the Totem room and another who was underwhelmed. The Lampi crew told me the sound was rhubarb on Friday and better today due to time alignment issues with the speakers. The show speakers got damaged in transit and another surrogate had to be used which was not show ready. Oh well. They still managed to sell some dacs. C'est la vie.

Matt, so your rolling amps now too? Lordy....
09-28-14: Ketcham
Hi,

I would like to state that the overdrive se playing red book was significantly better than the emm dac2x playing dsd of the same recording. Better holography, transients and decay. To me more visceral, engaging and organic.

I would strongly consider the sx and either not bother with dsd or have a dsd dac.

I think that's more a matter of what DSD dac you have. How is the Allnic with DSD?
09-28-14: Aplhifi-usa
I would strongly consider the sx and either not bother with dsd or have a dsd dac.

I anxiously awaited the release of a certain Jazz album to be available in DSD. It was recorded in 1958. There are many iterations of it, including a 24 Karat Gold plated CD that you can buy for $300, if you are lucky. Well, I have that CD, as well as the 45RPM vinyl. But you must hear the DSD release.

Alex, which album is that? Have you heard the DSD version of Indian Architexture? I have the 24/88 version and its magic. Also, you posted a show video earlier in the thread. What was the music being played? Sounded like Garcia-Fons....
10-27-14: Jon2020
That's the thing about digital. There is always something new and exciting just around the corner.

And that's one reason why not to take it very seriously. Watching all these "changes" with bated breath is tomfoolery. Its a lot like getting excited about a new computer. You know it will be dusted by what comes six months later....
Hifial, I own the Totaldac USB cable and it is very good. I would be curious to hear the dac as well. Vincent Brient seems to be a very earnest and sincere engineer who does not wander into hyperbole or defamation to promote his products. The only issue is the crappy exchange rate....
11-04-14: Wisnon
If you use a computer as source, the current rages are HQPlayer upsampled to DSD256 in Windows ASIO or Windows Server 2012R2 in CORE mode.

I have been told that straight USB beats any converter with these two approaches, so maybe the low hanging fruit is optimization of software filtering, or killing needless computer background processes.

Winson, have you been told the theory on why that's better? How is jitter addressed?
11-06-14: Paul79
Ya, I hear ya. Hard for me to believe when I started all this, but tuning is necessary to get the best results. I to was of the mind frame that with the packet correction and retry, the digital source would not matter. Not so!!

I will say that I could never get a computer or a Mac to sound like what I have going here. The transparency and focus is really unbelievable.

I agree with that Paul. Do you use the Totaldac as well or just the server? What does the rest of your system consist of?
Cstooner, I read and enjoyed your description of the Vandersteen event. The speed and energy of live music is hard to reproduce. I also celebrate your support of the brick and mortar crew. I miss that experience. In Minneapolis (where I used to live) there was an older store that would let you take things home to demo. No substitute for that.
I just read a blurb about the Technics development on a Sonos forum. My first amplifier I got as a 11 yr old was a technics integrated. Fond memories....
Ctsooner, Ayre is a great company. I know they incorporated that new Thermaltrak transistor like Macintosh and that apparently accounts for a lot of their sonic merits. Is that used in your integrated?
12-03-14: Kana813
Matt,

I ordered an Amp Audio for my iPhone,so I no longer need an expensive hifi system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky9IIi5Qkoc#t=108

Very clever ad. So it enhances audio by tuning to your hearing, tastes and the environment around you? Can it really be tuned to the audiophile negative OCD nerd brain?
12-20-14: Lohanimal
I had the good fortune of hearing the Computer Audio Design (CAD) which I think is a USB DAC - whereby you rip cd's to a computer first. Scott Berry also makes a kind of player/ripping device. I am not entirely sure ass to connectivity with your front end, but it was utterly brilliant - very natural, no glare, no hash, it was to all intents and purposes just right - I have never heard digital that 'right'. I've heard DCS which is fabulous but as a sort of CD High Res sound to it, Burmester has a certain luxury, MBL I recall had a Burmestereque luxury as well. But the CAD - that was something else - effortless correctness

Was this at the Warsaw show? Sounds very promising...
Ricevs, the amp section on the French piece appears to be SOTA, but the digital implementation falls short in many people's eyes. Spend on time on the Devaliet forums, and they are screwing around with Totaldac servers and whatnot trying to get better SQ. Who knows. I would love to try one. Speaker selection seems to be very important....
01-03-15: Wisnon
I got it from actual listening at Shows and from persuing forums like A-Asylum. There is a huge current dumping thread there.

I was interested in getting a Nakamishi Stasis amp once upon a time, as I know of Nelson Pass accomplishment with Stasis power. A UK audio industry buddy also told me about the hybrid amp tech and how they developed it.

BTW, I did not even visit Goldmund until mid-2013, so you are barking up the wrong tree. What would they know about Current Dumping anyway?

I also resent your implication that I cant think for myself and apply critical reasoning. Methinks you are the one swayed here by bling.
Wisnon (Answers | This Thread)

01-03-15: Wisnon
Andrew, did you read post 135?

Those people were wrong. Cant see the forest for the trees. Class A voltage, Class B or Class D current drive. Simples.

All the engineering egghead speak cant get away from that helicopter view.
Been there, done that, bought the T shirt.

Audio posting is riddled with derivate information due to the lack of a true technical background for many of us and we all recycle it endlessly. Nothing new there (and thus the Godlmund guess).

Posts 108 and 9 said it all. Case closed. Start another thread if you still desire to flesh out your hypothesis.

I do not own Devaliet, but there appears to be actual innovation (and the patents behind it). I am most intrigued by the Phantom project. Devaliet apparently had a team of 40 engineers fiddling on it. That's in stark contrast to what we are used to seeing in hi end audio (lone audio mystic tweaking a 1950s tube circuit through the alchemy of better parts) and trumpeting that as innovation. They both have their place, but Devaliet and companies like it are dragging things forward and people will naturally resist that or be cynical (or jealous if you are a manufacturer like your friend in the UK Norman). I have been waiting for something like the Phantom since the early 2000s and its here for better and for worse.

I would love to hear the Devaliet in my system. I would love even more to hear the Phantom speakers and either use them for a second system or possibly a sick HT system. I showed wifey images of them, and she was enthralled. She told me to dump all my archaic junk, buy a nice credenza and some phantoms for my dedicated room. It would make for some absurd, existential style theater....:)

Matt, an industry guy who is fairly picky also heard the Devaliet/Totem system at the NY show and was impressed as well.
Matt, what did you think of the Volti room? The Sadurni horn system looks spectacular and I know that they paired with Merrill at another show and did well.

I too am still searching for a SOTA digital transport. I am interested to see what people have to say.....
Matt, I was not there, but yes they are old school looking rubenesque monsters...(http://www.voltiaudio.com/vittora.shtml)

I see you are on the hunt for new speakers??? Upgrading?
I'm also intrigued by some of the Synergistic more esoteric room treatments and they let you try and return at The Cable Company. But I need to stabilize more concrete factors before playing with doodads and thingies. All in due time.

tweaks are the cutting edge of audio IMO and where all the fun is. Norman and others are foaming at the mouth for these doodads: http://www.stereotimes.com/accZiplex112811.shtml
I agree with everything you said Guido. Shows can provide an initial sonic frame of reference.

I very much enjoy the house sound of Vienna speakers...beautiful and musical. The Vandersteens sound nice (5+7) but left me feeling flat inside as well.

Matt, remind me again what initiated the speaker search? What is missing or what or you looking for exactly? The room/speaker coupling can be tricky especially when pressed for space like you are. You did a very nice (and efficient!) job on the room.

The Behold stuff looks very interesting. More German exotica. 55k is a lot of scratch for speakers though IMO.
At this point, I am more interested in Matt's speaker/room fiddling. Dacs should be a distant second place. Any updates?
I agree Matt. A full range floor stander is the ticket.

As you are discovering, the room is tricky business. Despite your obvious intelligence and DIY proclivities, professional help may be $ well spent....
I see Matt. Yes, a local guy would be most useful when you are fiddling with various room tuning devices. It has to be done in real time just like speaker set up.

I took a slightly different approach using engineering blue prints (based off of various calculations) where all the technology was inherent to the room structure and did not involve the usual external, piecemeal approach. I have no bass traps, diffusers, etc. It was a gamble but worked. More on that later.
Matt, I agree with your sentiment. Analog (particularly master tape) has a dynamic ease that is hard to beat. A lot of digital just sounds strained and pixelated by comparison.

I am a Lampizator owner and was one of the dissenting opinions on a Whatsbestforum thread on Lampis and turntables. That being said, I recently upgraded to the Golden Gate dac and am no longer dreaming of tables. It is the closest I have heard or owned to a TT. HOWEVER, I do not own a TT and so a side by side comparison has not been done....
06-22-15: Mattnshilp
JH - I have given up directly spinning CD's. I rip them or download off the web.

I have actually started spinning more LP's as my system gets better and better. Analog is incomparable.

So does this mean the dac quest is back on?
I've had music lovers (and musicians) question this hobby. I get it. Its a razor's edge when it comes to the balance between music and sonics and equipment. Its easy to become a sound whore and drift away from that first love of music. This and other audio sites are a testament to that. I have done it....
Here is an interesting vignette shared by a friend of mine: a speaker manufacturer has a young autistic son. His son would typically play in the room while Dad was fiddling and voicing the speakers. He used master tape, vinyl, and vinyl rips to digital as source material. When master tape or vinyl was used, his child stayed in the room. When digital was used, he would play for a few minutes and then leave the room. So, we need digital reproduction that will not drive children and/or small animals from the room.

The whole scenario made me think of this experiment: http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/