Used audio market appears to be collapsing

Well yeah most people do not care about our niche space and those who care even slightly are mostly into portable audio

I don't think so. People are still on the hunt for good deals. The issue I've observed is that when you're a buyer, you're seeking a bargain. However, as a seller, you aim to recoup as much as possible, perhaps even profiting from the sale by leveraging the "used car" scenario.

While cars are a necessity for most, audio gear often isn't. I've noticed that second or even third owners price used merchandise as high as what they paid the previous owner. The problem is, today's buyers are more aware of this.

Not at all. 

This spring I have purchased about 6 or 7 items, two off of wanted ads I placed, and also sold a few things, all of which went within about a week.  

In the 25 years I have been here, it has not been unusual to see ebbs and flows in buying/selling due to a variety of factors.    

If you are buying, be patient or research alternative products and, if you are selling, make sure your item is priced appropriately.

It’s a GREAT time to be a buyer- especially used.

Beyond the Gen X demographic, the younger have zero interest-with exception of a few, of course.

I've had mild interest in a couple things, far overpriced. I believe some are pricing in inflation vs depreciation, not even worth contacting seller in these cases.

I have picked up a few amazing deals the last few weeks.

I have noticed a slowdown in sales as well lately.  Agree there are always ebbs and flows.  I think we are in an ebb due to the economic uncertainty we are experiencing.  With many of us in this hobby being older and many retired we have seen the market drop, tariff concerns and hear talk of social services being reduced.  Many may have put this hobby on hold to see how the economy settles.  Good time to be a buyer!

The longer an item has been out, the harder it is to generate interest. Even if it’s still a current model! If it doesn’t get any interest for weeks, your price is too high. Otherwise, you just have to be patient. This is nothing new under the sun - the used market for audio gear gets slightly tougher and slower every year. Summer is always crappy.
 

The “market” prices you see don’t often reflect what prices actually close a sale. The bluebook is hopelessly off target. 50% of MSRP is an extremely optimistic / high ask for most items these days. Unless it’s a brand new model hot off a review 

I’ve noticed very few items posted for sale of late in my area.  People appear to be in a holding pattern. 

You can sell your used gear, but be prepared to take a bigger loss than you wanted.  Stuff sells, but you have to price it pretty low. I buy and sell a lot as my feedback here and on USAM shows, so I have much experience in these waters.  What I could have sold for $5500 last year I now have to discount to $4500 - $4900  if I want it to sell in a couple of weeks.  People are buying if your price is lower than like listings and you are willing to take a financial hit.  If you cannot accept this  type of “loss”, then it will sit and not sell. 
 

Some pieces of gear are outside of this reality and can demand more. Hope you have these rare pieces as a seller! I have sold 4 items over the past three weeks and had to discount 3 of the items significantly to get interest and action,  I will be selling another item shortly and expect the same scenario.  I don’t see a holding pattern or downturn of interest, but I do see people desiring a “deal” more than usual.  I think it is part of a growing sense by audiophiles that prices for highend gear has risen to the point of being unbearable and unsustainable.  Even audiophiles with deeper pockets are having this sense consciously or unconsciously and saying enough is enough.   This attitude has spilled over into the used market. 

OP, you have no items for sale nor any marketplace feedback. Kinda hard to sell something you don't list for sale. In the event its on that other site then there's that.

Is it good stuff at a good price or perhaps not one or the other?

Humans are kindof of interesting creatures. The psychology expressed above about the market being down or the economy this or that.....compared to what? The market is up compared to a year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. Are we prudent with our finances?

Alot of people may have bought a lifestyle on credit during Covid but who really knows what drives the consumer who might be looking for what you are trying to sell.

@grannyring how are you my old friend?

Some of us here are old enough to remember that gently preowned gear sold for around 50% of its retail. Some things more if they were limited production or highly desirable while other gear closer to 25% of its retail if it isn't scarce or in high demand. Once again, humans are conditioned to believing that prices only move in one direction....to their benefit. Things got overpriced during Covid and prices find their logical point whether we like it or not.

There is at least one post like this every year....I guess a broken clock is still right twice a day.

@gano 

Here is a similar thread on here from 2023

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/has-anyone-noticed-a-slow-down-in-sales/post?postid=2510584#2510584

@ghasley - @grannyring has been a long, valued member here, so I’d credit his experience. I’ve been involved over the years in a lot of different markets- not because I was "flipping" to make money, but simply because I was into exotic cars, higher end real estate, art and other markets.

Without getting into geopolitics, all markets are extremely volatile right now. And, in my experience, there is a buyer for everything, depending on price and market conditions. Hi-Fi is a niche, like many other luxe goods markets (even if it isn’t "high end" hi-fi). It is price and market sensitive. And unpredictable at the best of times. This is often good for buyers. There was a period when I tracked vintage Ferrari prices very closely and I can’t believe the numbers being fetched now for what I consider to be very pedestrian models. At the same time, some markets, like motorcycles, have largely collapsed in the States (except for extremely rare collectible vintage bikes)- the boomer generation is aging out so the weekend warrior Harley guy isn’t as big a market but smaller bikes in some countries, like India, sell in huge volumes. 

I’ve just returned to motorsports and have been following a couple different market niches. A lot of stuff is not meeting reserve or if auctioned at no reserve, is selling below pricing of a few years ago. It’s the economy--even those with disposal income are not spending as much on luxury items when there is financial uncertainty. It is a good time to take advantage of that if there is something that you want and have the cash to buy without dipping deep into your savings or cash flow. 

PS: Is the sky falling? No. I've been around the block enough to know that you can hold during the uncertain periods (unless you are trying to unload a dodgy thing) and the market often returns. But, that timeline and peoples' needs may not allow a relaxed approach to this. I unloaded a lot of extra gear that was just sitting around some years ago, and though I have some pieces not in use, I also have no compelling need to sell. 

@whart you may have mistaken that I was disagreeing with @grannyring which was not the case. He and I have shared conversations and experience over the years offline and I have deep respect for him.

I was just following up on my point to the OP....the annual "the market is falling" and "the hobby is dying" post of the year. Anyone spending more than they can afford to lose on hifi or any other hobby is spending too much. Hifi isnt a store of wealth, it shouldnt be significant enough to place on a balance sheet or worse, to borrow money against.

@ghasley - you've been here a while too! The only certainty is that we get older. :) Interesting springboard about markets, though. For example, people often aspire to things that they admired when they were young and could not afford them. It is certainly true in motorsports, maybe to a degree in hi-fi as well. Thus, the market for old "brass era" cars is depressed b/c those who admired them have left the planet due to age. And in hi-fi, I guess one weak point in older gear is the solid state stuff for which semiconductors are no longer available, though vintage tube stuff can retain a market. 

I was never smart enough to figure out how to connect the dots on disparate markets, e.g., the price of wheat is depressed, so buy oil, or something. I bought what I wanted at the time. When it came time to move on, I was fortunate to do a lot of the ardent consumerism in an age when dealers took trade-ins and dealt with resale. 

We're good. 

@whart I hear you...we are getting older, thankfully. Only you will appreciate this but quite some time ago I sold a certain old sports car to a well known collector.

I ran in to the collector not long ago where he reminded me of what he paid me for it and what its estimated current value is. I chuckled and reminded him that I had put the money to work in the markets at the time and that Apple, Google, Facebook and Amazon had performed reasonably well (but not GE LOL) during the interim and that I could buy the car back for less than 10% of that part of my portfolio.

Once again, we humans are funny...we remember time slices of the past as constants, which of course they aren't. All the best.

Curious how many items which seem to be priced fair but not selling have sellers asking for Paypal Friends & Family for payment. I keep asking sellers to ship it to me first and then I’ll pay, but I get no takers. Go figure...

@ghasley Hello back to you! Yes we agree and your comment regarding folks being careful not to spend beyond their means is wise indeed. 
 

@whart we are on the same page also.  The sky is not falling and I do think uncertainty is playing a role.  However, I wonder what you and @ghasley think about the notion of audiophiles reaching a point where they feel highend price increases are deemed unreasonable and uncomfortable. I see these increases greatly eclipsing what this market has served up in past years/decades.  Uncomfortable in terms of an emotional and intellectual response. I think this is happening independent of our emotional and intellectual response to uncertainly.  Yes, they both feed off each other.  

It seems to me that this time of the year is not as good as in the fall for selling items. t

@grannyring said: "I wonder what you and @ghasley think about the notion of audiophiles reaching a point where they feel highend price increases are deemed unreasonable and uncomfortable."

I'm at that point. I gather from reading (I'm fairly active on the SHForums) that there's lots of reasonably priced gear out there these days-- can't speak to it simply because I haven't heard it, but the uber high end is now nutty money. When I'm told that a 250k dollar DAC is actually a bargain, I know I'm at the wrong party. 

Fact is, we could build extremely good systems for far less, total. And I'm not a cheapskate. Some would say even my main system is extravagant but it was built over time, in increments and gradually got to a place where I'm happy with the sonics I achieve using standard (not "audiophile spectacular") pressings. And I spent very little on a digital front end by comparison, to play hi-res from an SSD.

Perhaps its generational-- like the geezers who talk about when gasoline was 25 cents a gallon (I think I remember those times, not sure), and some may simply be to charge what the market might bear as a so-called Veblen good. I don't resent it, but it's not of interest to me. If it was a "blue sky" project with the promise of trickle down, that might be justified. I certainly know people who have extraordinary systems that do ring the bell on price but, again, for the most part, these systems were evolved over time by their owners. That's half of the fun of hi-fi, I think- the quest.

But there's also that other part- where you are no longer in the hobby just to keep buying equipment in that elusive search for the "best."  For me, the quest became hunting down obscure records to scratch my particular itch. And it wasn't just about the artifacts but the performances, the story behind the recording, and getting a better understanding of how the artist "fit" into the times and culture; sort of a "social history" of the music, to borrow a dated term (I'm not sure it is a term that is even used in the musicology discipline as such). This is an ever continuing learning process for me, and one I enjoy immensely. We can thank some of the labels like Blue Note's Tone Poet for unearthing some of the gems that were not warhorses and getting them onto turntables at reasonable pricing. 

@ghasley it’s listed in 3 marketplaces, not here. 

To clarify, it looked normal until the end of April and now it seems to have come to a complete halt. Few views a day versus a 100 a day, zero responses, inquiries in 10 days whereas I would have received 5-10 by now.

@gano, why not list it here?  I have always listed my items for sale here and most times it sold within 5 days.  A few things took a couple of weeks. There are always a lot of people looking here. 

I always found this time of year to be slow for sales, maybe all the college and high school graduations.  I think many are also waiting to see what happens to new prices, for example some big price increases at PS Audio last week. All this leaves used prices as an unknown.

@stereo5 there are a lot of reasons why not to list here. I have a lot of reasons. And I have no idea why people look up if I list here and change the subject. There are many sites where I list and I noticed a trend. If you want to talk about why people should list HERE, you can start your own thread. No offense, I am not upset, it's just not what my post is about.

gano

There are many sites where I list and I noticed a trend. If you want to talk about why people should list HERE, you can start your own thread. No offense ...

I think everyone here is trying to be helpful to you. If you’d like to know why items you’re offering for sale on sites other than A’gon aren’t selling, perhaps you should start a thread on those forums, wherever that is.

@gano 

It's summer, activity in the used audio market always slows down.

My local market has seen an uprise in listings on USAM and Agon over the past few weeks. Items that are desirable and priced attractively sell in a week or two.

Those that sit for a month or longer  are probably over priced and / or over rated.

End of story

It is for fun. I usually use gear for at least a decade then I give it away to somebody who is starting out. The market sites show you what's ending up on the secondary market and what is chronically absent. 

+1 @cleeds 

 +2 @cleeds !

The higher  end  AUDIO hobby is in the luxury category and has a very negative ROI, far worse than automobiles... So I am cautious in where I spend my hard earned money.  I still can't comprehend how some pre-amps or amps are in the $200K territory brand new and crashes to about half in the used market a few years later.  Even at $100K, a used high end  PreAMP or AMP costs significantly  more than most brand new cars including luxury badges like Lexus, MB, Audi or Genesis.  Let that sink in...

Interesting comments on where to list items for sale. I list here, USAM, and on Audio Circle trader. I use all three for maximum exposure.  My experience has been the buyer comes from USAM 90% of the time and Audio Circle 10% of the time.  No buyers from here and I have listed 11 items over the past 3 years here.  Much more action on USAM. I can’t control which site buyers choose to make an offer. I am certain the ability to have open conversations and share contact info on the other sites is one of the main reasons buyers like them. Makes everything easier and safe.  I like talking to buyers and sellers if at all possible.  Not a must, but certainly a plus to be sure both parties are comfortable with each other etc…

If you choose to pay all the fees up front here you can have open conversations and share contact information.  However, with so many buyers coming from USAM, paying all the listing fees upfront here only to have the buyer come from USAM seems unwise.

I think it depends where you're shopping... reputation being paramount. I've listed some things over the last few months that have gotten little traction then boom, three inquiries in 48 hrs. I'd say that businesses like TMR & Holt Hill Audio are selling, specifically the latter. They recently purchased the building they're in. Don't think you're buying an old mill if business is struggling but I'll agree with the economic uncertainly right now. It's affected almost everything & everyone especially retirement accounts (gives pause to the older demo). That sector still makes up the lions share of all audio enthusiasts. I'll say this though, my local record shop is thumping with 20-30 somethings so, there's maybe a new golden age of analog just around the corner. Who knows? Just my opinion...

I check out used audio all the time; and while there are bargains to be found, the "not knowing" the REAL use hours and care of the items is a gamble.  One persons perfect condition is another person's slightly marred...in any case, i took the deep dive to get another tube amp to mate up with my current one so i could run dual-mono blocks......and I got a real beaut at what i think is a fair price; a one year old unit selling new for $6500, i was able to procure for $3800; and it's perfect...on the other hand, a DAC which I paid new $3800, I was only able to get about $2100 for it...(mint condition/ less than 4 hours on it)....the bigger problem is liquid cash to make such purchases; most don't want to use credit so cash is converted to a bank check payment....so if one has the funds laying around, and many do, probably a great market; for those of us who have to budget monies for a purchase, sometimes we dont have the money to react in a timely manner to procure a great deal....but i've had one seller who'd take half up front; and two weeks later take the other half of the payment and then ship....great way to lock in on a deal.....we all can come up with funds when the deal is just to great to pass by....sell a kidney or something...uggg......with that said, buyer always beware...and for sure, seller's always think their equipment is worth more to them than it is.......hence, maybe they should just keep it......

@cleeds perhaps I should be able to start a thread about audio related issues without veiled censorship. I very clearly stated that I have my serious reasons why I don't list here. If the admins don't want me here, that's their decision. But all these comments of why I don't list here are off-topic.

I don't see a rule anywhere that people on the forum must be active on the audiogon trading site.

It is also ironic you mention that everyone is helping and you are lecturing me and telling me to go to other sites to discuss this. Again, I see no reason why I can't discuss it here.

I casually am interested in adding a second Pass XA25 to my system to run them in mono. There currently is one for sale at >$5K, which is essentially list price. No thanks!
For it to be worth the risk of dealing with private party, price needs to be around 30% down from list, if it is pristine in box. More so if not pristine. I don't want the hassle and uncertainty for $100 off. Not happening.

my 2c. 

I'm trying to sell a few things now, and what I surmise from the discussion above is that (a) summer is worse for selling and (b) people are being more cautious about discretionary spending because things are really volatile right now. (And for the foreseeable future, I'd guess.)

Of course, if inventory starts drying up in various places, used market will get hotter.

I'm prepared to wait a long while, but the difficulty for me is between whether I'm "just being patient" vs. "have things priced too high." 

@hilde45 that's a good way to put it. What prompted me to write this is that I posted an item that would not be listed for more than a week at a certain price point. I received zero inquiries in 10 days. So I don't know if waiting or price reduction is the answer.

The sky is not falling, far from it! Good money being made during during the last month in the market. Tune in today for big gains. The audiophile market is a niche market of hobbyists, and the majority are older with money. 

I buy and sell a lot and I buy what I want and try to get the best deal I can at the time. I’ve been retired for many years but still buying expensive audio equipment and  sports cars every couple of years. Why wait to buy what you want, it’s not like you can add more time being vertical. If you’re older, enjoy the time you have left within your budget without incurring any debt. Read the book “Die with Zero”, it’s good for younger and especially older people.

As for selling, I will not respond to ridiculous offers. I don’t need to sell, I can wait forever. I’m selling something right now for 2/3rds off the retail price and I’ll wait until somebody wants them, every now and then I’ll rotate them in for a a couple months.

The sky is not falling

I’ve been retired for many years

so you have no idea what's going on in the real world out there.

Also "I can wait forever" and "Die with Zero" are truly opposing ideas

Buyers market now. I usually buy used from TMR audio. Usually I am very patience in buying. Example Iam so interested in getting Audio research preamp? But the price is a bit high for my price ? I passed. Then suddenly a preamp I’ve. Been looking for showed up? With almost bargain? The I buy. The preamp I am mentioning is Tsakadiris Alexander tube preamp , it’s sounds so close on tha AR preamp  l like. It’s not a brand name but it sounds good.

@gano 

The point I was trying to make above about you having no listings and no feedback here on Audiogon is that when buying gear on the multiple sites I frequent I research the seller first. A zero feedback seller isn’t an option for many. Stuff is worth what its worth but a seller with zero feedback selling an expensive item is suspicious.

Since you haven’t tried selling on Audiogon, then you might consider it. Alot of us only shop here or USAM. Good luck with the sale.

I don't know if collapsing is the right word, but it certainly has been a lot weaker since before Christmas through about now.

I believe some of the key reasons, beyond the general cyclical nature of our market, or any market for that matter, are related to the economic uncertainty related to tariffs, the stock markets instability, and the current administrations general policy zigzagging.

In other words, I think a lot of people are on the sidelines, on the buyers side. It is a buyers market now, for sure, more than I've seen in recent years prior. 

well, reading this now, I’m not gonna bother photographing and listing a few things I want to part with, I’ll wait until winter when people are indoors more, sometimes I think I should time listings in early spring when people are going to have some tax returns coming.

when I do list, if I list here, I, like so many you see on hifishark, set a higher price here to cover the fee, and it’s been random, I’ve sold here, sold audio mart (usa and canada), sold reverb, sold eBay (bought from all also). A few things, I'm not ever actively swapping.

You can check the ’sold/expired’ tab on hifishark to see what others are asking/getting and when it was listed/sold.

@ghasley 

I do list on USAM/Canuck. Have for a decade, sold and bought 30+ items. There are many issues with the audiogon handling my financial information and the sales process compared to other sites, which are difficult for me. It's a no-brainer that I avoid listing here. But we are all different, if everyone else happy to list here, good for you.

2 eye witness reports:

1) I have a family that' a hi-end dealer. Sometimes I "work" (actually hang out) in his store some Saturdays. I hear what his customers say and see what they buy. I can tell you for certain that many top line brands are not selling well, and the used market is soft. He's an Audio Research (among other highline manufacturers) dealer. The used market for ARC gear is especially soft. for example a clean Ref 5 SE just sold after 4 months for $4150.  The seller's ask was $6500. My recollection is that these went for $6000 last January. 

I like to buy and sell new and used equipment. It's kind of an addiction. I like to imagine it helps me support my equipment lust. January-March are my best months. This year I sold one thing- a set of Maggies - not many bites and no follow-through. Maybe it was the "tariff monster" or the stock market taking a dump, but the fact is I have good gear priced right and it's not moving. Now it's warm weather and audio gear won't be in demand 'till October. 

@elliottbnewcombjr - Keep in mind that with digital gear, the longer you wait, the less it is usually worth.  Other gear generally holds value better until a newer/upgraded model is introduced.  With tweaks, they mostly fall off a cliff every six months or so since the tweak market is driven by a flavor du jour buying mentality (inexplainable exception being Shakti Stones).

The used market for ARC gear is especially soft. for example a clean Ref 5 SE just sold after 4 months for $4150.  The seller's ask was $6500. My recollection is that these went for $6000 last January. 

The 5SE has been superseded for ages by the 6. Now even the 6SE has been out for years, and I've seen asks under 10K for those. A 5SE is not upgradeable to current, and repairs could be expensive. Anyone asking $6500 on a 5SE today is some kind of optimistic. 6000 is also way too high. I sold a Ref 6 for under $7500, around two years ago. $4150 is a good deal, but not off what I'd expect if selling. 

A lot of this is politico-economic.  The economy has been collapsing dramatically of recent, and people have been holding onto their money, even the wealthy. Hiring is apparently going down. Right now it appears a large reversal of tariff policy with China s underway, so maybe the heat will be off soon. Remember 2008 and other times of eco-crisis. I doubt the market for anything, used or otherwise, was all that great then. I was fortunate in that I moved to a new venue last summer and was able to completely revamp my system. I got a "new" Denafrips DAC from TMR for about half what a new one would be now. It was 6 months old, according to the manufacturer's card that came with it. It was, of course, made in China..