I'm glad I logged back in the forum as I did not get a notice of replies. I'm thrilled to see all the replies.
Let me add this... I constantly hear and see that I'm going to have to spend BIG Dollars on an amp or mono's if I'm going to get the Maggie's. There is a dealer 15 Mile's away who sells both!!!
I so appreciate the comments... For the record, I'm going to replace the NAD 326 integrated. It's a great piece... I got curious about the Saga and its better than the 326 preamp section.. But not by a huge amount... But enough... Soooooo... It's looking like I should seriously consider the 1ci..due to budget and real world considerations. I did not mention I sold high audio in the 90's...best speakers in the store were BW",'s and Martin Logan... Also sold Klipsh... Paradigm... MK.. All good stuff. Let me also provide to all.. That the room my system is in.. Is terrible... I'm downstairs in an "unfinished" basement. Yes I know all too well.. The room is the ultimate and MOST important factor. Throw 25k of equipment into a crappy room.. Is a self defeating exercise.
I set up an 8 ft triangle within a h
Big basement.
With the left speaker having a wall to reflect from... Where as the right speaker opens to nothing... The nearest side wall is 30 ft to the right.
Knowing this I'm sure you might all say Maggie's will never work... I thought i would toe them in.. Tweeters to the inside... I might totally fail... Don't know. When I audition both.. Who knows I may been so taken with the Vandies that I will be spared the reality that the Maggie are too rich for my blood.
I love to listen to female vocals... Saxophone.. Jazz.. Najee.. Roy Hargrove... Also like new age..
The Whafedales are very good.. But I'm ready to see what these 2 speakers are like. More... I own the higher end HSU crossover and their sub. I have been hi-passing my amps. Doing this. Gives me more amp headroom and relieves my mains from 90hz and below. Many might sneer.. Yuck.. Not a fan.. But to my ears hi passing does add clarity from my mains that I like.
Ive also taken the route of stand mounted monitors. Physics being what they are... Smaller baffles... Small sound stage. This is why... I'm looking to no baffle with the 1ci and the big panel. 7's. In closing... Maybe I will never overcome this room and no amount of equipment will make it sound good.
Today... I even thought.. Maybe I should build a side wall to the right out to equal the distance of the left wall... This being the only solution.
I very much appreciate all the replies... I'm not a big forum poster... I thought I would give it a go and share my thoughts.
Thank you very much Otto
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No acoustic treatment... The electronics are nestled in a square concrete walled cove.. 10x10x10 I sit in front of this cove.. 8 ft away... I considered putting some corner pillows in the 2 corners if the cover... I run the sub right next to my listening chair (a lazy boy couch),, as Dr. HSU suggests... Near field sub.
I never considered used 2's hummm that's a great idea! I'd have to get lucky.. Same or lower then new 1ci's 1395.00?
Really.. I'll search for it.
Thank you Otto
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Hummm.. Ok... I'll have to use
Different cables... Thank you for that |
Really enjoying everyone's contributions to this discussion. I emailed Vandersteen and the man himself answered. I spent a few days hunting down various Vandy 2ce models. I discovered a few pairs.. 1 from 1996.. Still asking 1500.00 which was very high I thought..another 12 years old at 1200.00 I asked RV about serial numbers.. And he said.. The company just does NOT keep accurate track of this. I tries to get the years and when updates were done.. And many here are correct. He does upgrades when better materials are available.. And does not always publish what is done. He also said this.... The 1ci's would sound better than an older pair of 2ce's!. His feeling is.. The latest technology of the 2 way would better older 2ces. Interesting dilemma. Finding the most recent 2ces I can find in my budget... Probably impossible. The 2ce are a 3 way with dedicated midrange... Where vocals, and jazz lives. Like to hear from the members on this. Many audiophiles would say a good 2 way in many ways beats a lesser designed 3 way. But we're talking about the same company and designer. With the sub I don't really need the extra bass if the 2's...its the midrange that's of interest.
The KEFs... Ah... Another direction... Very cool... I'll have to seek them out and have a listen!! I've always thought... Having a great monitor would be EXACTLY what I'm looking for. On a whim I bought the HSU bookshelf speakers a few years ago. The reviews and customer satisfaction is very high. Some people said they liked them more than many speakers costing 1'000's more. For 450.00 I went for them hoping for nirvana. It's a 2 way that uses a horn loaded tweeter. No cigar.... They were good.. But my BW's 603II beat them easily. I sold the 603s to fund the purchase of my current Whafedale 240's which are 3 way instead of 2-1/2.. I'm on my way right now finally to the dealer that sells Magnapan and Vandersteen. Additionally.. Do any follow Steve Guttenberg? He's pretty cool and has been around. He has a YouTube channel.. Called the Audio philac The Maggie. 7's were his Speaker of the year fit 2015.He goes on to RAVE about this particular model. He's owned 3'4 other Maggie's.. Bigger and. 6s he goes on to say... There is something about the , 7s that just sounds better to him... It's very special to him. He owns a few great speakers.. But this model just really makes him smile. He was running a PASS 25 watt amp with them.. 50 watts at 8 ohms... And not at concert levels... Still... Is very in love with this model. I'll report back today if I get time with both speakers.. I know if I marry the Maggie's a better amp is in my future.... And the Vandies can coexist with my NAD longer. It will be goose bump factor and tonal accuracy that will win. I'll be back... Then... I'll have to find a KEFdealer to make this more challenging!! Take care Otto
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Well.... I listened to the. 7's and there 1ci's today. Spent about an hour in this shop. First about the equipment used.... CDs were spun by an Audio Research player.. Didn't ask specs and model... Suffice to say... Built like a tank... Had to 10k maybe more. Amp was a Rogue Integrated...all tube... Forgot the name. It's very popular. Kimber wires. First was the Maggie. Images as expected were bigger then usual. Sound was a little on the soft side... I wish the amp was 100%solid state... As the Rogue is all tube. By soft I mean that mellow tube sound... (I'm generalizing),,, wasn't bad. Timbre was good.. I'm enjoyed them. The dynamics compared to what I'm used to... We're not as "snappy" as to box/dynamic speakers. I've Never had the pleasure in ALL my years sat down and listened to Vandersteen speakers. It took about 20 minutes.. To adjust my brain... And.. I'm short... Lol I hope... I heard spatial cues.. Information on my CDs I had not heard before. I couldn't believe it. I know the music... And the CDs I brought. I'd have to give it to the Vandys! The only thing through Maggie had better was image size due to yet size of the panel. Vandy is no slouch... It was more precise... Far better bass... There really must be Something to their use of first order crossover. Also... No baffles... Etc.. Price wise.. There about 150.00 apart. I experienced the difference in amplifier power. To run the Maggie's were I was listening.. Volume knob was about 1 o'clock... With 1ci's.. It was 10 o'clock.. 11 was loud. So... I think I have to go Vandy... It's been suggested I listen to the KEF 50s...I'LL have too do this before I settle on the Vandy.
I'll probably obsess for a bit... Over seeking out recent Signatures 2ces...vs the 1ci's. That's going to take luck...no telling where I'll wind up... Maybe I should just settle on near 10 year old 2's AND NOT try to drill down hard on what the possibilities are vs the 2...im sure there is A break point.. In serial numbers where the newer 1ci's will perform better than older 2ces... Isn't this a wonderful hobby... Lmao.. And there's the possibility that the KEF might best the Vandys... Then it's over. Now to find a KEF dealer.... And I will call John... John are you reading all my notes here... Take care Otto
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Thank you Bob and Helomech! We'll my plot thickens! First... I know nothing ZERO of the VLR'S.... I'll have to start looking at these. Are they in my budget? 2. I did some reading on reviews on LS50's and some user comments... The reviews were positive... User reviews were mixed... From... No bass... Mostly... I have the HSU SUB and his 500.00 electronic crossover.. So I have been hi-passing for many years... I'm even using it with the big Wharfdale 240's...to my ears... Doing this adds clarity... In short.... When I sold hi end audio.. We were an M&K dealer... And got very into hi passing and see the value and concept. When I was a pro musician... Most of the sound systems were bi and TRIampd with crossover. I still have a very excellent MX125... Which is a dual 12 'push-pull' arrangement.. I have been thinking lately of trying it.. In place of the HSU... Which is an entry line model I bought 10 years ago... Their technology has improved dramatically since then. The MK is in my Desktop PC system. Back to LS50... I read the efficiency is pretty LOW.. 84 OR 86 dB... I'll check that. Hummm not happy about that. So... I will start down the VLRpath and see if the dealer has them to listen too. With the reviews on the 50s...with the STRONG comments here on female vocals which is most if what I listen too.. Along with Saxophone and Trumpet... The LS50 sure sounds like a done deal!! I can almost go ahead and buy them... Sight unseen... There is deal on a pr... I found... is that dumb... Always listen first... Then do I listen to the VLR'S... I guess as I type... I must listen... Audio and opinions... I must listen before I buy. I don't want to lose the deal on the 50s....i guess I can always resell them.... At least we're past the Maggie's so you speak... With the introduction of the KEFs into this.. It has thrown me into another place... I'm laughing.. And soooooo appreciate the direction... It's always a blessing to read forums to help someone else in a similar situation.. Work through the current dilemma.... Lmao. I'll look up VLR'S and look for A KEF DEALER. KEF is another brand I have zero time with. Working for a BW dealer... I did not have any interest in looking up KEFs. When you listen to the older 805, 802s 801s who cared! Please let me know if on a WHIM I should take a shot and buy the 50s... There are under 900.00
Thank you Otto |
Just looked up the VLRs... It's a coax speaker just like the Kef.. Interesting.. Also 1395... Same as the 1ci's... This gives me pause... Look at them... The 1ci is bigger... And much different... The small coax is the same money.. Ughhhh more to obsess... So it's been said here a review from TONE audio felt the VLRs better the 50s in vocals... Well I guess... It's a hard decision... The VLRs new are 600 to 700 more than the used 50s I found... The VLRs may be better.. But are they 600.00 better?
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Tom...Bob. excellent!! I tefi did think of the first order crossover ..and how I heard more detail from the 1cis. And I'm very drawn to this fact...and yes..the Ten design principals is Very Strong and makes sense. I'm leaning more tonight on VLRs...I'm selling my 240s no offers yet. I'll be patient...no close KEFdealers near me..online i see...I'll call Kef usa tomorrow and see if there are. I'll call John tomorrow...I'll also call the local dealer and see if they have tge VLRs to listen too. I feel im getting real close...its either VLRs...1cis or ls50s in that order...what was i thinking...i have to listen to whatever im thinking of buying...until tomorrow...thank you Otto |
I just read the full TONE review,,,enjoyed it! I see the LS50's need top quality AMPS to sound their best....something I do NOT have. Jeff said the better the AMP,,,,the better the 50's sounded...and visa versa. Meanwhile the VLR is much more forgiving...and not too demanding. There are no used ones around....probably a telling sign....once you own them....no need to trade up. I'll see what I can get a pair for. I think I'm done....VLR it IS! With the 1ci;s a close 2nd. |
JR I will call you tmw,,,,what time do you open...can you give me anything on my 240's? |
I found a used pair of VLRs... And I'm about to pull the trigger.. Seller is 2nd owner.. Not sure how old they are... I emailed RV to find out about age....i think I'm putting the ls50 to the side... |
I got the serial numbers and the office said they were made 2014... I feel I got a blessing today!! I paid for them and they will ship tmw...when I get em and hook them up....I'll report back! I'm already thinking I am going to do a small MOD....take the terminal strip OUT and replace the copper binding posts. I also asked RV if there are any upgrade to these he said no. Thank you Bob for all your contributions here! Otto |
Thank you Don for your comments. This past Saturday I spent over an hour listening to the 1.7 and then the vandersteen 1cis... the Maggie's were very very good huge soundstage but to the point when I switched to the vandersteen 1ci's..I heard spatial cues and stuff in my CDs which I've heard for years and years that I never heard before at that point I was convinced that the Vandersteen were more resolving and more revealing than even the Maggie's., some of the comments here have been I should go for the 2ce, While others put me on to the vlr. I'm so grateful that I was led to the VLRs cuz that's where I live real accurate reproduction and I purchase them over the larger 1ci is because I don't need Bass I have a subwoofer and a crossover that I'm going to use. Maybe one day on a whim I'll order the mmg's but when I was at the dealer he suggested forget the they are just an appetizer the 1.7 is really where you want to be that's where you really want to start. I think listening through an all tube integrated might have soften the overall response. The Rogue I'm sure is real quality stuff. I owned IIIa's in the 90s...i know the sound.. Also know.. I don't have the amp right now to feed the 1.7's properly. I really really lucked out finding 4 year old VLRS for 700.00...it was too good to pass up. I appreciate your enthusiasm for Magna pan... Maybe another time...
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about good stands....ya know what I have been using with monitors for years? Cinder blocks... yeah Im cheap... but as far as heavy stands...what could be better than concrete? I use Blue tac under the speakers...seems to work just fine. There is room to improve the amp... ( NAD 326BEE )...at the same breath....this amp is very good...strong reviews...etc.. I was looking at the Schiit Vidar when this all started, then I took a 180 and at the suggestion of the Schiit tech..( he said look for better speakers)...I switched my buying from an amp to speakers. |
I'm listening to first dose of female vocals and it's the best I've heard in all my system.I thank you guys for putting me on to the Vlrs....boy I'd love to do o a face off with the LS 50s!! Lol
I'm smiling ear to ear...I'm hearing more details from my music than ever before. Next decision/direction? I have a Musical Fidelity v90 dac. Pretty incredible piece for 299.00. Reviews you know are Gaga. Do I do a Bitfrosh. Or keep the top and replace the NAD with a Schiit Vidar? Hummmm. What do you all think... |
I'm back. First....the banana terminated Silver Signal speaker wires fit perfectly into the connectors terminal strip. Was this designed in? Took the screws out and put them in...perfect. GEZZZZZ I am very HAPPY! I'll going to sound like a reviewer I guess...but its my opinion. After 2 hours things started settling in. The VLR's have to be the most revealing speakers I've ever heard/owned. I'm going to start another thread about Hi-passing, because to my amazement, I started listening full range w/o the HSU electronic xover...then went back and forth on the same tracks. And I started to notice the music was fuller, had more body. I know, some may say....there is NO place for this "crap" in audiophile listening.I am putting this out here to get opinions. As I said I'll start another thread and see what this community thinks of the whole concept. Bi and tri amping are used in professional sound reinforcement, so why not in home audio?
More....I'm going to contact HSU and discuss this with them...my question, : does a crossover add some kind of phase abnormalities or something to the mix? I'm sure Dr HSU is no dummy....nether is M&K and others. Now I have 1 sneaking suspicion. Could it be the 90hz xover point I have have had it set to all these years? It came with a 70 or 75hz module..its a IC that plugs into the socket. MAYBE, just maybe changing this out will solve the slight less "body" I hear...I say body... but I was listing to Roy Hargrove's Moment to Moment CD... ( I'm a trumpet player ),and his horn just had more overall body and was more real without the crossover button pushout I can use it or not with a push button.I know... I would be eliminating 3 pairs of cables too...and this electonic box in the signal path...which many might say....NO WAY... I would ever use this. Soooo....I'll change out the IC..and see if this does,,,,then I will have the benefits of hi=passing....I will run the VLR;s full range...and may add the sub very low...and set the crossover on the sub to the lowest setting.... and see what happens. The bass on the VLR's is thinner for sure than a big tower....but its all "integrated together. To close this out...please let me know if any still think the 1ci's or the 2Ce's are still the better way to go...there will be no need for a sub and crossover is not part of the equation anymore. I was so relaxed this afternoon listening to this cd...I fell alseep....hahaha. Finally real music... I value tonal accuracy above all in my listening....since I know live music so well ( I mentioned this long ago, I direct an 18 pc Jazz Big band )...this is the most important to me. Recreating a live space is so room dependent...its not top on mind. Give me a decent soundstage, but tonal accuracy...I'll take that.
Otto
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Thank you all for your great comments. The stands will have to be next then! I don't have a multi K. Budget.. So I'll have to go in small steps. Making it a little harder.. Squeezing what I can from every move. After the stands we're spilt on DAC and better amp. If the bananas, which are Audioquest Silver.. Fit right into the terminal strip... What is to gained by re terminating the wires to spades and using screws? I can send the wires back to Signal Cable... Just don't see it... Please enlighten me. I will admit... Lol full disclosure.. The signal cables are a biwire set up... I'm only using half.... I have other cables... Some Audioquest, Mogami, I'll try them... I'll re terminate the biwire myself into silver spades. I also changed the hi pass cutoff from 91 to 62... And the results are working out as I hoped. Down the road... I'll definitely look into the Vandy sub. Cheers |
John I agree 100%,I read through the site and never knew RV handles the sub woofer so differently than everyone else. It's alot smarter for sure. John do you agree I can combine the biwire together... I can use spades.. I'd order some more... I use the Audio quest silver reusable Bananas. And will push into the terminal strip. Unless you insist on spades and use the screws... thank you John for all your help for comments and advice I will give you a call one day
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Bob and TOM,,,got it Locked and loaded! 2 hours ago I cut off the Bi-wire bananas and used the Audioquest Silver ( reuseable) Bananas to combine into one. Here's the model of this connector Audioquest Suregrip 100 BFA's. I WILL order their heavy duty silver plated spaces and I will redo the wires. Back in the day... this kind of attention to detail was so much fun...like listening to different kinds of solder >..when Wonder Solder was the BuZZ. So.... I'll be listening with the BFA's and then have the chance to report back on the spades and what difference they are going to make!! Back some comments, I said I was going to change Sub's; to my M&K MX125 its a dual 12''s in a push pull configuration. I'm running a cd on repeat for a few hours and will go and listen a little later tonight.. On listening to 1 track, I like the MK....its been sitting in my PC system all along...using the HSU crossover and their sub. John, I am running the sub from a 2nd output for the Schiit SAGA..line level.. and controlling the bass level and xover point manually right at my listening perch. I have the sub close to me. I think this is going to be MUCH BETTER,,,until I can get the VANDY sub.
I'k looking at stands next. I might take some lumps here... but not willing to spend 600.00 on sound anchors..I was looking at Pangea they have a regular weight and a heavy weight..**249.00 for the heavy,,,reviews are very good and say these stands are HEAVY... much more in my range....I will either fill with sand and or shot. I am convinced better stands will add more definition. So I have a few new things going on. I wish I could POP for the Ayre Codex I see 3 for sale,,,just can't right now. I will sell the V90..and I am selling on Craigslist my recent pair of Wharfedale Diamond 240;s for 650.00 I'm on board for the Codex! |
Combining all the wires made a nice difference....MK sub is better all the way around. |
Hello Tubes.. We'll this seals the deal... Unless I can get a big beast if an amp.. No point owning Maggie's... I'm ready think the 2wq sub will be a great addition someday... I don't know what can beat these VLRs.. Without speaker many, 1000s...which can be spent in a better front end...
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Thank you Tom!! I think it will be 28" I measured the height of my ears at my seat.. About 30". Audio Advisor.. 229.00 spades are on order... By the way.. Any recommendations on digital cable? I use the best blue jeans coax... I took out an Audio quest Cinnimon months ago... I think I plug it back in.... I now have speakers can can reveal these kinds of difference... Also... I have an optical cable... What is the general concensus on coax Vs optical? I've read in some posts long ago.. Optical is superior? |
Thank you for the comments on digital cables... I've been using a Blue Jeans coax.. Their best... They make a strong case on their site for materials, construction and termination. These guys do NOT buy into the total crazy mania of multi 100's and 1000.00's of dollars spent on exotic cables. I am NOT defending their philosophy here... As I know this is a wide open subject... And many will defend their current use of whatever cable costing whatever... Does in there system. To divurge a bit back to my selling days.. The store I worked at... We had Audio quest and we sold Miles and miles of all the models... Stick a Lapis cable in place of stock wire... Or a Ruby( I'm dating myself) along with the still ever popular Type 4 speaker wire.... I get it... And it's about budget and return on the dollar. Back to coax.. I took the Audioquest Cinamon out 6 months ago and did not change out the Blue Jeans.. Pretty happy with it. I will swap it out soon... And see what happens... Now that I have the VLRS.. I also have a run of the best optical cable from Signal cable... ( many many positive reviews in Audiogon.com and customers) and have my little face off with these 3 wires... I'm not going to buy a 500.00 digital cable.. I'm not in that realm... Small bites. The speaker stands are next. It will be very interesting to me to hear the difference in cinder blocks and heavy steel stands... I'm expecting an improvement based on all feedback. I sold speaker stands.. I've used them in the past.. I have a very good steel and wood equipment rack. Past 25 years I've had BW 603s II so no need for stands... When I bought some monitors I had some block around the house and just threw them up on them.
Can't I mention the Bitfrost again... The single bit version fully tricked out with the latest USB Gen 5 board is 599.00...one of the best features of this model is.. Schiit says it can ALWAYS be updated and will not be dumper trash in tears to come. For 600.00 bucks I think that's a great feature. With 15 day return policy... When I get to this.. It won't be a problem... If it doesn't sound any better then the V90.. I send it back.
Have a great night
Otto
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I'm back... I got gold plated AQ copper spades today and removed the AQ silver reusable BFA bananas... And I'm a believer... Everything is tighter.. Better in every respect... That was easy...!! I'm listening on all DAC comments.. Is there anything between my V90 and the Codex?
I have a budget.. As far as speaker wire I use Signal Cable silver reference.. Don't feel I need to change these out.. Pretty darn happy with them. Sorry to say the Blue Jeans digital coax beat out the AQ Cinnamon.. Easily... Might order the Signal Cable silver resolution digital coax to Compare. Next purchase will be heavy stands... Oh some more news... I'm selling my NAD 326BEE.. It's here on Audiogon and Ebay.. Lower than the 4 other ads I see out there. 2 years ago I owned a Linn LK85 sold it to buy the NAD... I went fishing and saw a Linn LK140 got it for 350.00 its on its way. I know this opens up another thread.. But when I sold Linn back in the 90's.. I grew to love their stuff the LK85 was very musical.. I expect the LK140 to be even better. I took the NAD out of the system to take pictures.. I have an Adcom GFA535II.. And it's doing a very nice job.. A little mellow compared to the 326bee.. But imaging and soundstage are all there. I'll be selling this too.. I modified it with an IEC AC socket and swamped out the input connectors for some better oxygen free ones.. I'm using a 10 gauge power cord and this one modification has made a big difference... Replacing the 14 gauge zip cord this amp comes with... Before power cords became the rage.
After the linn gets into the rig I bet I'll have more to talk about Main things these speakers have really been wonderful to own. Thank you guys who put me onto them!!!
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Good evening.. I hit the Linn Lk140 yesterday... And tonight is my 2nd session.. The Linn like the NAD has a stand by mode.. So the power supply is always charged.. After 24 plus hours... It's the best sound I've had to date. Very musical... That Linns are know for.
The orchestra instruments have more character... More meat... My favorite female singers are much more fleshed out than ever before... Same DAC V90... The amp made a good difference...
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Tom, I did catch that... I bought a Tung Sol tube for my Saga...my first tube rolling. I'll see what it does. Someone else bought the same tube for his Saga and was very pleased. |
Got the Tung sol into the Saga.. And I'm liking it very much. Have not switched the digital cable yet... Thats on the board next.
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