Musicians and none musicians have very different perspectives on jazz, or should I say music in general. Musicians can appreciate technical virtuosity, while to my ears it might sound like bombastic noise. In the case of our most recent comparisons, it was apples and oranges, plus comparing a solo artist to a group that played as one was a lose no win situation. I've heard that same identical cut of MFT no less than two zillion times, and this time I heard it new; no one can top that.
Although Mehldau was very good, who and what was chosen to compare him with was a bad idea. Now that we have two fantastic musicians, I'm looking forward to fresh new music they have discovered on this thread. Maybe we should accept new musicians for what they are, and what they have to offer without comparing them to the old.
Enjoy the music.
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Some people prefer restaurants where the portions are big; everything else is secondary.
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*****
Of course it can*****
Well Brad Mehldau didn't. And I didn't say a solo performance was less music.
Example: I have Evgeny Kissin playing Pictures at an Exhibition. Solo piano. The first time I had heard it done like this. Blew my mind. Fantastic.
I also have Reiner / Chicago doing 'Pictures'. No comparison. The Great gate at Kiev? You can see/feel it opening on the Chicago disc.
Both were very good, but the piece is better realized with a full orchestra.
*****
In fact, the solo artist in jazz or classical faces a bigger challenge; *****
He does indeed, and sometimes the challenge cannot be met. Take the short film we just saw.
Cheers |
I did watch 'The Drummer'. As The Frogman said, it's a tough life. I enjoyed it. I wish it had been developed more and lasted longer.
I really liked the mature chick on the dance floor.
Cheers |
****Can a solo performer compete at creating musical emotion and expression cpmpared to a group?****
Of course it can. Apples and oranges. Is Horowits playing a Beethoven piano sonata less capable of musical and expression than the Berlin Phil playing "Eroica"? Is it lesser music? Of course not. The symphony may be on a grander scale, but is the sonata lesser music? In fact, the solo artist in jazz or classical faces a bigger challenge; that is one of the things that makes Mehldau's performance so amazing. |
jzzmusician, words cannot express how significant, and a surprise, it was watching "The Drummer". The drummer in "The Drummer" is none other than Dave Ratajczek, an old friend and colleague. Our career paths took us in very different directions and as a result I would see Dave about once every year or two and I am sorry that I was not aware of the video's existence. I am far more sorry to report that Dave passed away a mere few months ago leaving behind a beautiful family. The last time I saw Dave was on a performance with the NY Phil of Bernstein's "Symphonic Dances From West Side Story" only three weeks before he passed; he was playing set. The first time was on the Broadway show "City Of Angels" which gave birth to the infamous Rat/Fink rhythm section pairing of Dave and David Fink on bass; they were very in demand as a pair and had a special synergy together. Dave was known for being a very sensitive drummer and especially liked by vocalists for his touch and because he never played too loud. He could play any style at the highest level.
The video is very accurate in portraying what a working drummer trying to make it in NYC is like; a tough thing. It is very indicative of what Dave probably went through coming up in the scene. It should be pointed out that Dave achieved a great deal of success and was very in demand, although the weird gigs, as you know, never disappear entirely. Killer drummer, great guy (and pretty good actor; news to me) . Thanks for posting this. |
Orpheus said,
"Seriously, did anyone try and focus on McCoy Tyner, and Elvin Jones when
listening to MFT, by Trane. I promise you will hear it differently."
In the many, many times I've listened to this cut I've focused, (besides on Coltrane and the "group"), Elvin and Davis, Davis and Tyner, Davis and Coltrane, Coltrane and Elvin, etc.
This one tune helped me considerably in developing a better sense of time. Which, as a percussionist is kind of important. If you're a musician, (even a hack like me) if you don't have a good sense of time you will suck.
I still love both versions. If I had to sum it up I would say that Coltrane's version opened up and helped develop my sense of time while Meldau’s version opened up and helped develop my sense of expression.
Both are important.
-- Bob
PS - Has no one watched "The Drummer" short I posted?
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*****
Seriously, did anyone try and focus on McCoy Tyner, and Elvin Jones when listening to MFT, by Trane******
I did, seriously. That's why I mentioned the group, esp Tyner, in my post. Can a solo performer compete at creating musical expression and emotion, compared to a group. Not if that group is world class.
Cheers |
Seriously, did anyone try and focus on McCoy Tyner, and Elvin Jones when listening to MFT, by Trane. I promise you will hear it differently.
Enjoy the music.
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As you may all recall I previously encouraged Rok to step away from the spiked eggnog; I guess he didn't listen. |
*****
the highest Blasphemy possible in the "Jazzasphere", someone has dared to compare St. Coltrane's version of "My Favorite Things", to some relatively unknown version of this same tune.*****
I know it's hard to believe. But, this is the holiday season, and some folks do hit the sauce a little hard. That's probably what it is.
Cheers |
O-10:
I thought you would be threading water by now. The way they are talking about the flooding 'Heading South', reminds me of the talk I heard about "27 high water".
Glad you are OK.
Cheers |
Lazarus came back from the dead, and so did Orpheus; as a result of hearing the highest Blasphemy possible in the "Jazzasphere", someone has dared to compare St. Coltrane's version of "My Favorite Things", to some relatively unknown version of this same tune.
Let us not forget, Orpheus saw Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, and Elvin Jones at a small club, about this time of year in 63. (I recall the ride to the club in a brand new Buick, on wet streets glistening with the reflection of multicolored neon lights) "My Favorite Things" was performed with the extended version that included a preview of the sacred music St. Coltrane was to perform later on in his career.
While the tinkling of ice cubes and audience chatter can be heard behind live recordings of other artists, if this recording was made live, non of that would have been heard; the audience was as silent as in a recording studio while these artists were performing. As normal, everyone was having conversations before the music began; but after the first note was heard, the background noise was a silent as in a tomb, everyone came under the spell of that hypnotic "Soprano Sax". McCoy Tyner, and Elvin Jones, were as one; weaving in and out of the East Indian sounds of the most melodic "Soprano Sax" any one has ever heard.
I urge you to play this twice, and just focus on McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones; you will hear what the audience heard. When listening to music of this caliber "live", time stands still, and your hearing plays beautiful tricks; one instant your listening to "Trane", and the next instant your Listening to McCoy Tyner, and Elvin Jones. Your mind and hearing does mysterious phase shifts, hearing one while excluding the other, and then combining the two.
When you close your eyes at a live performance in a small club, it can seem like the hypnotic "Soprano Sax" of "Trane" is in your ear, and mysteriously changes to McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones. McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones are as one; you'll hear this the second time around.
Enjoy the music.
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*****
I hope you are not suggesting that because Coltrane's "MFT" is recognized by a few, that in the scheme of Coltrane's overall contribution, that it is more important than, say, "Giant Steps".******
This entire discussion revolves around the performance of one tune. MFT. That's all. Recognized by a few"?? From Hyperbole to Understatement.
*****
After all, what does the fact that the unwashed happen to know Julie Andrews and ONE Colrane performance prove?*****
It proves that those two struck a chord with the public. Think of what a unique thing that is. To be able to reach millions of people. Complete strangers. Most players would kill for that ability.
*****
the great Phil Woods, the only thing that you could say about him was "he has a big stomach" *****
Well, I didn't lie. :)
Cheers
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*****
I think you missed the sarcasm in my previous post.*****
No I did not. I knew you would not seriously consider getting rid of half of your Spike Jones Elcassettes.
*****
It comes down to the first sentence in the last paragraph of that post: "Jazz is different things to different folks". *****
I posted an article several days ago that was blocked by Audiogon. Copyright issue. It was from an early interview by Wynton. He was accused of distancing himself from the word 'Jazz'. He agreed, saying, because now days, "Jazz is anything, Jazz is everything. If they think it will help sell it, they call it Jazz.
Some of the non-Jazz folks he called by name, Quincy, Miles and Sanborn. He did allow that Miles USED to play Jazz.
So your statement is true, but not valid. If that makes any sense.
Cheers
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Happy New Year to all!
Rok, I think you missed the sarcasm in my previous post. It comes down to the first sentence in the last paragraph of that post: "Jazz is different things to different folks". Since its a new year and a new year is a time for resolutions, I resolve to be more direct in my postings 😊. One of the things that I appreciate about what jazz is to you is that you like jazz that is fairly straightforward and stays fairly close to an obvious blues-based structure (as I have pointed out before, most of what you post is twelve-bar blues), uses fairly traditional instruments and and is not very complex compositionally or improvisationally. Jazz is much more than that.
"Hyperbole"? No way. From a technical standpoint alone what Mehldau does is pretty astounding. "Filler"? From an artistic standpoint, what you consider filler is development. Again, no way; IF one gets beyond the "unwashed" mentality (and limitations). After all, what does the fact that the unwashed happen to know Julie Andrews and ONE Colrane performance prove? I hope you are not suggesting that because Coltrane's "MFT" is recognized by a few, that in the scheme of Coltrane's overall contribution, that it is more important than, say, "Giant Steps". It isn't.
As I said, different things to different folks; and tastes do mature. Just remember, and in keeping with my New Year's resolution, the first time I posted something by the great Phil Woods, the only thing that you could say about him was "he has a big stomach" 😉.
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*****
Well, I guess I need to throw out about half my jazz records.*****
Well, maybe not half.
*****
After all, what can anyone add to Gershwin's operatic version of "Summertime" , or "Scrapple From The Apple" after Bird did it? Oh yeah, and all my versions of "St. James Infirmary" and keep only Pops'. And don't you forget to throw out all except one version of Beethoven's 9th. *****
Music can be played / sung by different people with better voices, or a more authentic feel for the music, and perhaps better recording techniques. You can have several versions for several reasons. This applies to all your examples. I have many performances of LvB's 9th, for many reasons. Either I like the playing or the singers, even the tempo(Bohm/Vienna). Some I have just for historical reasons, like Furtwangler at Bayreuth.
*****
First of all, Julie Andrews' version is not jazz, not to mention its a vocal version; apples and oranges. Coltrane's version, as good as it is, became a "hit" in great part due to the novelty factor. *****
I mentioned Andrews to show the breath of performances available. From the original musical, to Coltrane. And those two stand out. The unwashed made them 'hits'.
No one has ever heard of Brad playing 'Favorite Things'. Someone says 'My Favorite Things', you think Andrews or Coltrane.
Coltrane's version was named a 'Grammy Hall of Fame recording', according to the You tube folks. Not bad for a 'novelty' tune. And let's not forget, Coltrane had Tyner, Jones, and Davis in support.
But, I am nothing, if not fair with a thirst for knowledge, so, I listened to Brad again. From around 2:08 until around 7:00 is just filler. Stalling for time, or, trying to be profound. He picks up 'Favorite Things' again around 7:00. Hardly 'astounding'.
*****
What Mehldau does with that tune is absolutely astounding and original. Brilliant player. *****
We are all guilty of Hyperbole from time to time.
Cheers
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Frogman,
Never heard Meldau’s version of "Where Do You Start?"
You killed me with this one. Thank you.
And Shirley Horn... give me a break. Every time I put that album on I start floating. Especially "Estate."
Thank you.
Bob
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I like Meldau’s version. I like it a lot. His interpretation typifies what jazz is all about; which is finding a new way of playing a tune. I love, love Coltrane’s version. I especially like McCoy Tyner’s piano solo. Once when driving 268 miles to visit my mother, it was the only song I listened to for the entire drive. It is beyond a shadow of a doubt one of my favorite pieces of music. And then I heard this Brad guy do his thing. I was knocked out. He reached down deep and found other places to go with my beloved tune. I like them both. Jazz is about finding new ways to express the music. Once, when I was playing a lot, I was hired by our local symphony to put on a jazz concert. I had a big, (at least for me) budget and hired some great players. We rehearsed the afternoon of the gig, had a good performance and went our merry ways. A couple of days later a friend told me he attended the concert and said it was too bad it was only one night. "I bet you’d like to play that concert again," he said. I was honest and told him no, not really. We already played it and if we did it again we would want to do it differently. My friend didn’t get it. It’s great fun and sometimes scary beyond words to find new ways to play music. A dear friend and monster jazz guitarist invited me to play with him one night. I was playing hand percussion and invited up to play one tune. He said, "How about we do a Latin thing? How about Ipanema?" "No problem," I said. "Great! Let’s do it in 7." I thought, "Holy sh*t! Here we go!" It was very deluxe. Once, years ago when "Willow Weep for Me" was on my top ten list of favorites, I made a tape of all the versions I had. Maybe 10-12. It was a great tape. ***New Topic Alert*** It’s New Year’s Eve and a lot of people go to the movies. Here’s a short clip depicting a drummer living the life. The real life of a real musician. It’s not very long and for me, really captures one facet of a working musician’s life. I also like it because I’m a drummer and we always have to sit in the back. Bob https://vimeo.com/15273009 |
****After Julie Andrews and John Coltrane, what can anyone add?****
"Nice enough"? Well, I guess I need to throw out about half my jazz records. After all, what can anyone add to Gershwin's operatic version of "Summertime" , or "Scrapple From The Apple" after Bird did it? Oh yeah, and all my versions of "St. James Infirmary" and keep only Pops'. And don't you forget to throw out all except one version of Beethoven's 9th. C'mon man, that is brilliant and highly original piano playing. First of all, Julie Andrews' version is not jazz, not to mention its a vocal version; apples and oranges. Coltrane's version, as good as it is, became a "hit" in great part due to the novelty factor. What Mehldau does with that tune is absolutely astounding and original. Brilliant player. |
*****
???????*****
Since this song has been played by everyone in Jazz at one time or another, it's difficult to do a version that will really stand out. It was a nice enough Jazz performance, but nothing that will knock Coltrane's version off it's perch.
After Julie Andrews and John Coltrane, what can anyone add?
That's all.
Cheers
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Brad Mehldau:
Very hard to stand out doing 'My Favorite Things'. I think everyone has covered this tune. I must confess, I was thinking of Coltrane the entire time.
Cheers |
Jzzmusician, thanks for the fair and evenhanded response. Brad Mehldau "My Favorite Things": Wow! Astounding. I've been a Mehldau fan for years and had never heard this; thank you. His use of the right hand ostinati is simply amazing. An incredible player with an amazingly expressive touch and, to me, one of the few players that manages to unabashedly express his many different influences (classical, pop, rock) while being very much a jazz player first and foremost. One of my favorite Mehldau recordings and one of the most beautiful and poignant songs that I have ever heard: [URL] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U-o4it_WWec[/URL] And my favorite vocal version of the tune: [URL] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pIwuoHRRTGA[/URL] |
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Rok and Frogman,
Frogman, nice post! I wish I had the time and the brains to craft such a good read. Thank you.
Re: Roy Hargrove; he remains one of my favorite players for me because I find a lot of his music just plain fun to listen to. He's also not locked in to any particular style or genre either. I like that he's always trying new stuff. I agree with Frogman that his career is probably about where it should be. He's a wonderful player, but not in the upper echelon. I will still listen to him and still buy his music.
Here's one of my favorite piano players playing possibly, just possibly my favorite song. Brad Mehldau, "My Favorite Things."
Happy New Year!
Bob
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*****In fact, by that line of thought one could make the case that by playing a more "conventional" instrument the reed player or band with piano has an automatic leg up in the quality department; a silly proposition. ******
The great unwashed beg to disagree. First of all, I said no Piano, no Reeds, no horns. You have to be one hell of a player to make that work. On the other hand, maybe it was just the tunes. Here are the three tunes played by Mecca. I own these CDs, so I didn't cherry pick. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMsBCDVXHGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTORd2Y_X6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaRxPkoVS_E In my opinion, Mecca sounded like the group in a small lounge. Playing while the customers engage in conversation and pretty much ignores the group. Just background music. Cheers |
I hope everyone is having a happy and musical Holiday Season. Some thoughts on recent topics:
Acman3, "First Song" is a beautiful tune. Time, as is always the case, will determine whether it becomes a standard or not. I think it deserves to be so, but probably too early to tell.
Rok, I haven't forgotten your question re rehearsals.
The topic of the unsung hero is a recurring one here, and while there has been disagreement sometimes about the relative merits of these unsung players I am with Alexatpos this time. I, too, have never thought of Chet Baker as an "unknown"; quite the contrary. Certainly not with the very highest profile (Miles) for the casual music lover, but definitely on the list of the very top players; and certainly as a unique voice and stylist known to most jazz buffs. One of those players that could create a mood with one note; aka, true artistry. Loved the clip "Almost Blue"; thanks, jzzmusician.
Lou Mecca I had heard only by name but never by music. I disagree with Rok on his assessment of this player. First of all, to me, the idea that somehow the absence of reeds or piano makes it more difficult to play credible jazz doesn't quite hold water. I've known players who can make great music with a set of trash cans and a whistle; this ability is genre-blind. In fact, by that line of thought one could make the case that by playing a more "conventional" instrument the reed player or band with piano has an automatic leg up in the quality department; a silly proposition. BTW, the piano-less trio has been discussed here as a particular challenge for players, but the challenge is not the absence of piano per se, but the absence of a harmony instrument; in Mecca's case the guitar takes on the role of the piano, as do the vibes. Lou Mecca is a great player with a bit of a "cool" sensibility and an interesting harmonic sense. Of all the "unknowns" posted so far he's probably my favorite. Thanks, Alex for the introduction.
On the other hand, Roy Hargrove is clearly a good player, but to answer Rok's question, I think his career recognition is exactly where it deserves to be. He is good, but in the scheme of top players past and present he is no Kenny Dorham (nice Dorham clip btw). Nice flugelhorn playing. Beautiful tone and as jzzmusician says, he shows lots of restraint; a good thing. However, for perspective's sake (my perspective, anyway) I consider Lou Mecca (to have been) a better jazz player. He demonstrates a better ability to handle the changes in a logical way that creates lines that have a melodic direction with little needless repetition. On the first clip Hargrove has lots of energy and excitement in a "in your face" kind of way that to me rings hollow with pauses in the solo that are not silences as part of a phrase, but pauses to figure out what he's going to play next. Same with the rest of his band (in that clip). Listen to the alto player: lots of speed and lots of notes; but, jeez!, how many times is he going to start each phrase the same way, with the same lick? I find the overall vibe over the top and bombastic; almost angry. Sure, the drummer deserves extra pay for working so hard; but, that is precisely the problem, he's working too hard and not a particularly good Latin feel at that. Liked the piano player 'though.
Jazz is different things to different folks. Some like lots of energy. Sometimes that is a good thing; but, as always, the feel and the logic of the improvisation are paramount. I know that "feel" and "logic" may seem like contradictions, but they're not. The best players had/have a certain logic in their improvisations: taking a motif (musical nugget) and developing it within the context of the harmony of a tune in a way that gives it direction and meaning; a sense that it is going somewhere. That is the reason why it is sometimes referred to as spontaneous composition. That is what separates the men from the boys.
Great posts, thanks all.
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Roy Hargrove:
Excellent Clip. Good result at capturing the ambiance of a live club performance. The drummer deserves extra pay.
I have several CDs by Hargrove, including the SuperBlue and Jazz Futures discs. Do you think he had a career commensurate with his talent?
I have always been partial to the Flugelhorn. Always felt Trumpet players should play it more often. Wonderful tone. The master of course being Hugh Masekela.
Cheers |
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Hey Rok! Some years ago I kind of got into Roy Hargrove. I found his music to be solid, melodic and diverse. Here's one where they are simply blowing the doors off the hinges. Check out the piano solo, you can thank me later. I love this sh*t. Bob https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9SLugelvxw&feature=related |
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These folks make Sun-Ra seem like Lawrence Welk. I think this 'band' used to be the house band at the CIA. If truth serum, water boarding, and sleep deprivation didn't work, a few sets of this, and they confessed to everything they thought they knew.
The apocalypse is nearer than we think!
Cheers
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Rok, Please put your heart medicine beside the computer BEFORE clicking on this link. I don't know where they came up with the title "Epic" :). On most everybody's top 10 list for 2015. It gets better the more you can absorb, as there is a lot going on. Anybody reminded of Sun Ra Orkestra? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YbPSIXQ4q4 |
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Jazz without Brass, Reed or Piano!! That's a tall order. I don't think he pulled it off.
Cheers |
Always thought that Chet Baker was a great figure in jazz, so much, that I never posted any of his albums, thinking that everyone has lots of his albums. Beeing 'obscure' (not thinking about CB) once, should not stop us finding and listening their music now, I guess thats the reason why we all are here. Let me post a guitar player who is quite 'obscure' even for me. Lou Mecca, once considered as a 'new star' in Down Beat magazine, started on trumpet, changed to guitar later.
In 1947, he befriended jazz guitarist and educator Johnny Smith who, along with Tal Farlow and Joe Pass, are Mecca's greatest influences on his instrument. In 1955, he recorded for Blue Note as a leader of his own quartet, featuring Jack Hitchcock on vibes, Vinnie Burke on bass, and Jimmy Campbell on drums. Mecca has also performed and recorded with Ella Fitzgerald, Bill Evans, Teddy Charles, Gil Melles, Eddie Costa, Al Cohn, and Chris Conners.
[url] https://youtu.be/ctODsdMWY5w[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/aW8Xd1MFCFE[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/oUfZpm0GR-Y[/url] |
Rok and Jazz, I've been enjoying the posts and the conversation. Right now I'm dealing with big time weather related problems, and won't be posting for awhile.
These weather related problems of one kind or another have been going around like some kind of contagious disease.
Keep up the good work.
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Rok,
I love that tune. Thanks for posting.
Bob
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Chet Baker:
Very nice tune. Very good player. He was a sad and tragic figure. One of the many casualties in Jazz. He never seem to be on my Jazz radar.
Drugs, and playing and living in Europe and the West Coast, are not the best moves to make in order to have a big time career in Jazz.
Sadly, the road to fame and fortune still runs through NY. :(
Thanks for the clip.
Cheers |
As a new member I'm loving this thread. It's making me revisit old friends and make new ones. I've hung out in jazz clubs since the early 70's and have had the opportunity to meet a number of really fine musicians. I've met a few of the famous ones we all know as well as a lot of "A" players; musicians who never made it "big time" but travel most of the year playing gigs. One of the things that hit me was that there are, in fact, a lot more truly fine musicians than we know exist. I've played with some smokin' hot killer players who did things other than play music to make a living. It hit me that in order to make it, you have to be willing to embrace the lifestyle. In other words, you have to be happy being away from home. Pro athletes, actors etc all do this. Yes they are the best, but I believe there are many others that are also the best we never see because they don't want the lifestyle. As much as I'd like to play full time I couldn't handle the being gone. This song played by Chet Baker gives one insight into that life. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4PKzz81m5c#t=13Also, has anybody ever read "But Beautiful?" - Holiday greetings to all, Bob |
Cassandra Wilson:
Excellent Band. And of course, being from Mississippi, she is awesome.
But, I didn't hear too much of St James Infirmary, but it didn't matter. Good Jazz.
Cheers |
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The spirit of St James, the Blues version. So to speak.
Pops came closest to capturing this. Of course, with a New Orleans sensitivity. They can't stay serious for long.
Son House's tune is deadly serious, and sad.
Cheers |
The correct order is:
3 -- 2 -- 1 -- 4 -- 5
Cheers |
I think any order for Rok's list would be ok with me, but would add Armstrong's original version was 30 years before Preservation's version so who is copying who? The video hid itself above, by itself. Very fitting though. Enjoyed this one, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8a85lQxLiQ |
