Jazz for aficionados
Background usually has value. A while back an unnecessary dispute ensued after a matter of fact reference to the use of production/studio techniques in a particular version of a song. The dispute arose because the reference was interpreted as being an automatic pejorative. Not so. For me the important point, and which got lost in the dispute, is simply whether the use of those production techniques serves the music in a really meaningful way; or, is it just meaningless sweetening. All subjective calls in part, of course. This record is one of my “guilty pleasure” records. While not a jazz singer, in some ways this woman can sing like no other and, whether one likes her particular style or not, she sings from the heart. The use of production techniques on this record is pretty amazing in the way that it serves the music and that particular genre’s aesthetic. Very “digital” all the way around, but great. One of those records to play for the visiting relative who is a very casual music listener, but wants to hear your “stereo”. Stephen Sondheim, composer. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQL8vLGlM3mnr7QHXHE_SIU_iIfpy2il8 |
mary jo, I trust you and others realized your clip was not the soundtrack to the film. Rather it was the tequila scene utilized to back up the "Wonderful" recording video. Music for that scene in the film was done by Lila Downs - https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=frida+soundtrack&hspart=att&hsimp=yhs-att_001#id... I had the chance to see/hear Downs at a local street music fair some years ago. Unfortunately they had problems with the sound system and she only had time for maybe two numbers within her segment. Not jazz, but a wonderful and emotional performer. |
pryso, that’s correct. The clip was backed up with the music from Conte (it was the same thing with Fred and Ginger clip, Conte with Via con me/It’s wonderful, but that was unlike in the first clip, obvious). To me he fitted nicely. However, I should have posted original clip with Lila Downs as well. Out of appreciation and of course, because she deserves it. Thank you for correcting this. |
Ah yes, Barbara. I remember that Neil Diamond had lots of hits during the '70s and '80s and I thought he was OK (FM airplay, never bought any of his records). Then he made a recording with Barbara (You Don't Bring Me Flowers -?) and a friend brought the CD over to hear on my system. I thought she showed him up pretty badly. |
I think that drummers don’t get enough love. A notable exception here has been Joe Morello. Many listeners “endure” drum solos; sometimes with reason, but other times because, in the context of a tune, it’s a bit jarring for the listener to all of a sudden lose tonality and melody (in the usual sense). On this extremely swinging record Philly Joe Jones does an amazing job of, when its time to solo, not suddenly take the tune to another musical planet as often happens, but stays grounded in the feel of the tune. Love this record. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOAhcCb9en7BrHu6wfPmdcoCTCYiJV531 BTW, in honor of our OP and his love of Grant Green, I would point out that on this record, to me Grant Green sounds as good as I have ever heard. |
Hey frog, as you may guess from my past comments, I agree about drum solos. There are many drummers I enjoy for their backbone support of the tune, but extended solos seldom "connect" for me. Morello was a major exception. To my uneducated ear his were often "musical" and therefore interesting in and of themselves. Here's a related issue. No idea how true this may be in other parts of the country but locally jazz groups I hear tend to let every musician solo on every number. When it comes to drums and bass this is simply too much. And this from a bass fan who will often listen specifically to their lines. But those are not instruments that are appropriate for such frequent solos in my opinion. You don't hear that from Morello in every Brubeck Quartet number, so why would a lesser talent think they can pull it off? |
Pryso, than this one could be for you. Benavent played on few albums with Paco de Lucia, but also with C.Corea,etc. https://youtu.be/YahrEjyPPnA https://youtu.be/qUa1e0xhKyY https://youtu.be/RSYESgZM0NI |
This is what I was looking for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3njmynzDOg4 Frogman, Really good stuff! I will have to listen again. |
fro, Barbra and the taste in nice socks are showing me that you have connected to your feminine side very well. https://www.bolde.com/date-men-touch-feminine-side/ :))) |
frogmanI have to agree i am not a big fan of long drum solos . I more appreciate tgge accents, fills, etc. That the drummer provides in bvacking the musicians. I AM a big fan of songs where th e drummer trades 4's or 8's with other musicians. This gives them the opportunity to showcase themselves and mak e a statement in a short time period. In other words if you can say something in 4 or 8 bars he or she keeps it interesting staying within the format of the song. |
shubertI love Buddy Rich he is one of the few drummers I could listen to his solos anytime.But he really should be appreciated for how he drives the BB he is playingWith. Will have to check out some early youtube clips of Rich & Krupa . Absolutely melody and rhythm go hand in hand. People talk about the changes in melody and harmony created by bebop but the rhythm changes that the drummers found and created is equally important to bebop. It's all connected. |
Yes it sure is !Arty Shaw had a fabulous saxophone player name of Tony Pastor. Getting saxophone section to play as one and still improvise is no mean feat .Tony was rhythm itself in anything he did as a human being and kept Shaw’s saxophone section as coherent as coherent can be .Shaw was a perfectionist of the highest order and his band reflected that .Every man in the band drove the band . |
Q: What is one of the most unusual instruments to appear in a jazz recording? A: The harpsichord in Artie Shaw's "Summit Ridge Drive". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycdINaa8St0 |
pryso re: your 11/26 post all members solo on every number at live shows. I think this practice besides being monotonous also is cheating the paying customer . Most shows or music sets have a pre-determined time for the act to perform. If every player solos on EVERY song it stands to reason that the group will play LESS songs for that set or show, thus exposing the listener to less music and variety. i think this cheats the customer. My feeling is bass and drums should get solo exposure occasionally but not all the time. It's a good point you make. |
Today's listen (a jazz blasphemy) Neighbors arguing loudly (all day) Stefanovski, Tadic and Spassov: "Ne si go prodavaj..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_ccWKhFXDE Vlatko Stefanovski (Macedonia) & Miroslav Tadic (Croatia - Serbia) - Jovano Jovanke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyFwwIHw6nw Esma Redzepova (Macedonia) - Caje sukarije https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcaHAL38j4M Ederlezi: Time of the Gypsies - Goran Bregović (Bosnia), Emir Kusturica (Serbia) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZf00ad3G6o I am gypsy woman today, oooopa, ožeži (hit the music) |
A couple of thoughts re the issue of drum and bass solos offered in part because I am not sure that the sentiment of my first post on the subject was clear. “Drummers don’t get enough love”. I like bass and drum solos....good ones. And I completely agree with Schubert’s sentiment: **** If 20 minutes of bass and 10 minutes of all else is the best expression of that work or that time works for me **** It is true that drum solos, and to a lesser extent, bass solos are sometimes not on the same level of musicality as horn and piano solos. There are reasons for this. First, it is much more difficult to improvise an interesting solo with only rhythm, only one of the two most basic foundational elements of music...rhythm and melody (melody can imply harmony). However, it doesn’t mean that it is not possible and some drummers do it very well. The mentioned Joe Morello and Philly Joe are great examples. In the case of bass solos it has only been fairly recently that bass players have reached the level of technical virtuosity that one takes for granted from horn and piano players; but, once again, there are and have been players who, IMO, are every bit as accomplished in this respect as horn and piano players. Eddie Gomez, Scott LaFaro, George Mraz and others come to mind. Practically every tune on many of Bill Evans’ famous live trio recordings features a bass solo. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no set rule, IMO, about the “appropriateness” of having drum or bass solos on every tune. If the drummer or bass player can add to the music at the same level of musicality of the other musicians....why not? Of course, the problem is when the drummer or bass player is not on the same level as soloist as the other players. Now this topic gets tricky. The notion of every player on the bandstand playing a solo is rooted in a very basic tenet in small ensemble jazz....everyone gets to tell his/her story. From the musician’s standpoint and “artist mindset” this goes to the basic idea that jazz is an interactive and communal musical endeavor and, to the chagrin of the audience, the audience necessarily takes the back seat to this mindset. The “purist” jazz player, correctly or not, expects the audience to accept his “story” without necessarily having to worry about the audience’s expectations or preferences. Interestingly and ironically, we find this purist attitude mostly among the LESS experienced and less accomplished players; as pryso points out, the “local jazz players”. It is a kind of musical immaturity on the part of the players and more experienced and confident players know better and understand when a crappy drum solo will only detract from the communal story. Personally, I don’t remember ever going to see a major jazz act when the drummer soloed on every tune, or even close to it. I guess the takeaway is that, just as the experienced players try to be more realistic about all this and consider the audience, it’s probably also of value for the audience to put the practice in better context and perhaps be more tolerant. In keeping with the often cited truism that the best place to perfect the craft is in front of an audience, if not given the chance to actually do it in front of an audience we would never have a good drum or bass soloist. |
While I kinda/sorta understand why some people don't care for drum or bass solos, for some reason it surprises me when it comes to Jazz fans. The essence of Jazz is self-expression and musical development. Seems like an incredible disservice to all the bass and drum players! And totally contradictory to the inherent sense of exploration required to play it. Here's the thing, so many listeners automatically 'turn off' their ears as soon as they hear a bass or drum solo, as if they're ALL being played by the same guy! An Elvin Jones solo is a little different than the guy from Iron Butterfly bangin' away for a whole side! Want a more reasonable comparison, listen to the sure cure for insomnia solos of maestro Ron Carter vs. a Jaco Pastorious. Silly comparisons, I know, but it seems just as silly, to me, to lump ALL bass & drum solos into the same group. BTW, in the Latin music I listen to I often come up against the same mindset when discussing percussion! It surprised me to learn that is what is often a very precise music is often perceived as a 'racket'!;) |
| Post removed |
Least I be misunderstood, and I don't believe anyone directly implied that, let me be more direct. I enjoy drums and bass, both for their foundation work and when offering entertaining solos. However for me there can be two issues -- unnecessarily long solos and solos that seem to lack a cohesive musical plot. Maybe those are one and the same. Possibly frog offered the essence: "everyone gets to tell his/her story." Too many drum and bass solos don't seem to me to have a story. Or they offer only a short anecdote and then keep repeating it, hoping it may take the form of a story. Or they start out fine, but then ignore the standards for telling a good story and end up without a climax and going no place, leaving me hanging. My example on the positive side, Morello's extended solo on "Castillian Drums". It may be long, but I find it continuously interesting and carrying on the musical theme. For anyone who may still be unfamiliar with it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LBZJk5Kfgw And so, when local musicians, not quite professional grade, find it necessary to solo on every number it's time for me to leave. |
Yet again at perihelion...greetings Earthlings. Apropos the recent discussion of certain solos. A contribution from my working musician/producer bro-in-law who has characterized the obligatory, in-concert, upright bass solo as "a trapped fly, buzzing behind a window shade" (or words to that effect). Obviously, he’s not a fan of ’em. In light of that, he shared, with relish I might add, this article that supports his point of view. http://archive.is/6D3sY |
Always good to hear from you, ghosthouse. I’ve actually really liked that description of a (bad) bass solo since the first time you posted it; “bad”, my word, being the operative word. Very funny. I hope you nor your brother in law mind, but I have appropriated and used it at least once in conversation 😊. Re the article: With respect to the author (I think)...what a bunch of cr*p!. Sorry to be blunt, but IMO it’s narrowminded and misinformed. For starters, his characterization of LaFaro’s role in the Bill Evans trio is totally cynical and unaware. The idea that Bill Evans would allow another musician in his trio to be heavy handed and dictate the musical proceedings is absurd. Worse yet, it ignores a very important “event” in jazz, the development of the “conversational” style in piano trios and in which the bass player is much more than just a time keeper and plays in a way that suggests a conversation with the piano. On one of the half dozen times or so that I saw Bill Evans at the Vanguard he was auditioning drummers. Two drummers sat in with his trio (Mark Johnson on bass) over the course of two sets and replaced Joe LaBarbera for a couple of tunes. One drummer was Bob Moses and I don’t remember the other. In spite of his very quiet demeanor, Bill Evans knew exactly what he wanted from the drummer; I doubt LaFaro was able to control Evans as the author suggests. Bad solos are played by players on all instruments. I’ve heard plenty of bad saxophone and trumpet solos. I know that some listeners simply don’t like the sound or timbre of certain instruments, but I think it should be noted that it’s not unlike saying “I don’t like that Monet because I don’t like the color yellow”. |
Hello Frogman. Absolutely no problem w/anyone quoting that wonderful characterization by my b-in-l. (and "yes", I'm not above repeating a good joke!). Of course, when he told me, he accompanied the statement with the appropriate sound-effect. He has a great ear! and is a good mimic :-) Your comments about that article are appreciated. I'm not that familiar with Bill Evans' trio's work but inappropriate/overbearing bass work isn't anything that ever stood out to me on the pieces I have heard. I figured the guy (described as a curmudgeon in the intro) is a "bomb-thrower" and exaggerating to make a point; at best, being controversial to stir-up productive discussion. Personally, in my read of the article, I didn't think he was "ignoring" as much as trying to invalidate jazz as conversation to which bass contributes. It seems an extreme position to limit things to just one solo instrument with bass confined solely to rhythm-related duty. Yet the author is apparently not alone in this as another musician is cited in the comments with something of a similar point-of-view. Can't recall name off the top of my head. I did think the writer's comments about the jazz ensemble as "democracy" (or not) were worthwhile - more good fuel for discussion. I don't hold with the writer's position (or my b-in-l's). Schubert's comment IS exactly right. Whatever ingredients are needed to make the cake...or pie or cookies. Actually, the seeming narrow-mindedness of the writer reminds me of some of the other "jazz purity" discussions that have happened in this thread! Another pianist here that I've been enjoying and this album in particular... (be patient...not as New Agey or trite as one might mistakenly believe listening to only the first few bars). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-6Fga-Ft_0 |
Thanks, ghosthouse. I stopped after comment #100 and could not find a single comment supporting the author’s point of view. One musician did say he didn’t like to solo, but that’s an entirely different issue. Anyway, not much support there. Thanks for the clip, enjoyed it. acman3, thanks for the Evans clips and the blast from the past. And, fabulous Tony Williams, btw. Total badas$! |
Not to belabor this, Frogman. I thought the first two comments referencing Lennie Tristano could be taken to mean the author was not completely alone in his stance (while recognizing the author and Tristano probably differ on this topic somewhat and "paths" by which they arrived might well differ too). In any event, I'm definitely not trying to argue in defense of either's position! 1 Ralph // May 20, 2008 at 10:43 AM Alan: One possible explanation for Tristano walking out on the famed Evans trio was his dislike for the interactive styles of both Motian and LaFaro! In an interview I did with Jack Reilly, an under appreciated pianist and composer and a former Tristano student, he told me Lennie apparently didn't use a rhythm section in that manner. Scott La Faro would probably not be a good match for Lennie. To quote Jack on Motian: "In fact, when Paul Motian played�he played once (with Lennie) and Lennie told him to stop all the other stuff and he was quite annoyed and I don't know if he lasted the week or not, it was at the Half Note, and he had come in to sub for somebody. He stayed a few days but I don't know if he was ever invited back to play with Lennie.""... Lennie had so much going on in his head that anything that was not just strict time would interfere with the way he wanted to express himself at the piano." 2 Ted Gioia // May 20, 2008 at 10:41 PM There is very smart assessment of Tristano's attitude toward rhythm sections, recently published by Ethan Iverson at this link. He examines in detail Tristano's well-known complaints about bassists and (especially) drummers. But as Iverson points out, Tristano's primary obsession was with having an even, steady beat. |
Not at all, ghosthouse; just interesting discussion. You’re right, I didn’t take references to Tristano as “comments” in the blog eventhough you specifically said that he was“cited”. If you don’t know Tristano’s playing check it out. Makes sense that his very intellectual improvising style would prefer strict time keeping from the rhythm section and little else. |
