Jazz for aficionados

harrylavo, I like that: “Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval”.

Welcome to the thread!

O-10, I should have added this to my earlier post, but was rushed; I like clarity.

The reason I even mentioned “apology” in that post was not that I care one iota about receiving one from you; history has shown that you are not capable of that kind of sincerity. Nor do I care one bit about fitting your definition of “connoisseur”. I mentioned it because, to my way of thinking, you owe all on this thread an apology for, once again, stirring the pot of discontent and controversy with your absurd and provocative personal comments even when that same history has shown that whenever you do it, it serves no purpose other than to derail what could be interesting discussion of the music. I care about and respect this music. You care more about what it does for you and your identity. So, go ahead with your proclamations about being top “connoisseur”, “top aficionado”, whatever. You need that; I don’t. I couldn’t care less and frankly find the need to appropriate or use those titles to be incredibly lame, sophomoric and an indication of lack of depth. I don’t think that to describe your condition as “snobbery” is apt; I think delusion is far more appropriate.

So, let’s revisit just one of the more recent and superlative offerings from the “top aficionado” and “connoisseur”, shall we?:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jHeIASIwBp0

In case you couldn’t tell, your bs gets old.

mary_jo, I haven’t forgotten.

When one is rolling in the mud it's difficult to tell who the low life is.

Nothing in your post pertains to the subject of Nina Simone's piano playing.

I stated "fake snobery" because it was an attempt at humor, but in the future you can count on me not addressing you in any form or fashion, since that is the kind of response it gets, and your bs is much older than anything I could throw down.

I didn't intend to get this muddy, but s--- happens.

Eunice Waymon spent her entire life practicing and studying to become a concert pianist. She was playing at a bar in order to earn money for classical piano lessons when she was told she had to sing.

I can hear all those hours she spent practicing and studying, but you can not. Time, time and again you have demonstrated your tin ear, which all the knowledge in the world or your clever use of the English language will compensate for.

Forget Nina Simone, why don't you read about "Eunice Waymon" and tell me specifically which jazz pianists studied, or practiced harder; that would be responding to a specific question which you can not do, not even if it would save your life.

Frogman, if you did not want to incite a riot, why didn't you respond to mary-jo's post first? When are you going to respond to her post?

I prefer the piano playing of Eliane Elias:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGU3tUM0zSw

And her vocals are pretty darn good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlI5eTr5a-0

I saw her live at the Blue Note NYC in 2009.

I may not be a connoisseur of jazz music in the eyes of anyone but I don't care. I like what I like and to me none of the Nina Simone or whatever her name is links that were posted stands up to my 2 links above IMHO. I do not judge I listen!

This is beautiful piano playing on this by Bob James:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsz3mrnIBd0

Frogman, "Wicki" has almost nothing on Eunice Waymon; she's a person, Nina Simone is a name; you will either have to buy the book or go to the library in order to find out who "Eunice Waymon" was, "google" can not help you.

orpheus10,

I think Nina Simone's (Eunice Williams) playing and vocals are just ok, and IMHO not on par with countless male or female piano players.


Same with her vocals. I could easily name dozens of female vocalists that I like better.

I have heard a lot of her recordings and nothing really "stands out" to me but this is just my opinion and the conclusions I came to after listening to her music. I know by your continuance of posting her links and info about her that she is one of your favorites. Am I correct?

If so that is cool. Everyone hears things differently and sometimes agreeing to disagree without insults is the best way to go.

Just my 2 cents.

Of course, when you have a voice like Annie Lennox, you can sing just about anything, from any genre, and its fantastic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0EjoH4ib7c

and live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jru9k-TPP8Y

And speaking of pianists...

Monk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdVGMkVC-x8

And the Duke with Yvonne Lanauze, Vocals. Her real name is Eve Duke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrt79lROIaA

I think we are sometimes mixing apples and oranges, as they say...

As far as I am concern, I would not give my self a liberty to judge something that I am not properly educated of.

Meaning, as much as I like and listen music and as much as I can recognise 'great' performing I could not explain in so many correct terms whay some particular performance is 'great' or 'good'. (for 'bad' ones is easier,it seems)

I may say that I like it. (or not)

For rest and for more, I tend to leave it to professionals...

Than again, for some performances, I am completely certain, that if looked from 'technical' point of view, they are incomplete, to say at least, but sometimes or often, some of them give me chills.

For instance, Chet Baker. He is not Placido Domingo nor even Dean Martin, but his singing is very dear to me.

As for A.Lenox or E.Elias, they are great, but never either of them even remotly gave me the feeling such as I had while listening to Nina Simone

Just wanted to say that 'confrontation' with 'better' examples to some of our choices is not the right path, imho.

My first thought, when I see something interested posted is to post another gem, that perhaps the original poster might like and does not have.

For the ones that I dont like, I stay politely silent or even try to give it one more shot,(if its in genre that I like) out of respect or with a thought that I could perhaps discover some new angle to look at it.

Spewing your bile across people you've never met is lousy way to talk about jazz, no matter how fun it may seems. Its a kind of folklor here, but I should hate if it gets out of hands. So, you have been warned...

https://youtu.be/suY06PVK_bI

alex,

Did you send out an LP?

I have Das Boot Blu Ray remastered the multi channel audio mix is incredibly good!

No, still not, forgive me, will try my best to do it on Monday.
Yes, Das Boot is a great movie....have only few movies on dvd, never thought of collecting them, perhaps because I always try to see some that I have not seen yet...and yet, I buy books, aldo it takes much more time to read the book again, than to see the film.
Hm, thats a interesting thought now...

alex,

No rush on the LP whenever you have spare time.

I like this version of Mood Indigo by Nina Simone. A little up-tempo then the others I posted but I like her version. Definitely a finger snapper!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5euaoFlU87g

Alex, it has gotten out of hand. More than once; as you well know.

Great post and I couldn’t agree more. I have been calling for focusing on civilized discussion here for literally years. From my perspective, I am confident in the fact that I put a lot of effort in trying to provide my point of view and perspective without personalizing it nor insulting anyone. If someone, as was recently suggested, considers it an “insult” when I or anyone else offers a reasoned and confident viewpoint backed by well established and accepted ideas and standards about music which happen to be different or contradict that someone’s viewpoint, there is not a whole lot that I can do about that. It is unfortunate. As I have suggested many times, we should all be big boys and girls and accept that there will be differences of opinion.

Now, I don’t nor would I ever claim to be an angel when these disputes get out of hand. That I am not is obvious. However, as was recently pointed out by one of our participants, if a stone is hurled unjustifiably there is justification in hurling one back. If enough stones get hurled I may hurl an even bigger one back; or two, or three. That is normally not my first choice; but, there is a limit to everything. The recent dispute is a fine example:

A poster makes a comment about Nina Simone and, in a rare stroke of magnanimity, suggests that I would be the only one who can make a determination or explain why he might be correct or not. Now, I don’t necessarily agree nor put stock in the idea that I am the only one who could address his concern about Nina Simone, a favorite artist of his. I then wait to see if anyone else responds. No one does. I then offer a reasoned and detailed opinion (OPINION....MINE ONLY), in which I praise Simone as a great artist and explain what I (!) think it is that makes her a great artist. Ah! But I make the mistake to write that I don’t think her piano playing in general is outstanding and explain the reasons why I think that is so. Oh, no; we can’t have that! Because the poster thinks that she was one of the great pianists (she was not, imo) all hell breaks loose and responds with the “you are not a connoisseur” bull sh!#. This after asking for my thoughts. All this on the heels of unwarranted comments about how I “am not able to hear jazz”, or “don’t have a feel for the music”. “I don’t post as much good jazz as he does”, and on, and on. This sort of childish nonsense has happened so often that when I read that “stroke of magnanimity”, I knew exactly what was around the corner. I was correct. My only regret is that I can’t always have the wherewithal to take the high road and simply ignore the bs. As I said, throw enough stones at me and I will throw them back; perhaps along with some bile. My reaction is usually about the manipulative aspect of the way that this is done and the obstacle that it creates in being able to have a meaningful discussion to the detriment of this thread; not because there is disagreement. The bs is simply too much to take sometimes and it is never “fun” for me.

I don’t need the validation of a self-proclaimed “connoisseur”. I know very well why the reaction to my comments often is what it is. Not a whole lot I can do about that other than to continue to ignore it and try and take the high road as often as I can. Obviously, I fall short sometimes; probably too many times. But, again, sometimes the bs is simply too much to take.

Nice post. As always, hoping for better communication here.

On the subject of piano playing female singers.  Another favorite; if very different from Simone:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ydcb22nNrXM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7OtpZe_HSNg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-nb-qqXOqnc

I haven’t forgotten, mary_jo. 

For anyone who is interested the "Complete AT The Village Gate" Sonny Rollins CD was released on May 12th 2015. I had no idea of this release until it popped up when I was ordering another CD on Amazon. I had not been searching for Sonny Rollins discs on Amazon for many years now because I have pretty much everything was put out by him. Just goes to show that you should always be checking for new releases by your favorite artists or you could miss out and have to pay a much higher price for it when its out of print.


Anyway here is the link:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00W4L0MWO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You can't go wrong for 23.99 I have mine already and I listened to disc 1 of 6 and its really good stuff. Don't miss out!

Thanks for the link, pjw.  Very interesting period in the career of one of the most important figures in the history of jazz.  In the tenor saxophone world, up there alongside players like Lester Young and Coltrane in the handful of most influential.  It’s interesting to me that these recordings are some of Rollins’ first after his infamous hiatus and that he would also choose the unorthodox Don Cherry for his front line; clearly a time to explore new ground on the part of Rollins.  I’ve had some of these performances on this record:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7pbu76U43yY

... and a cassette (!!!) tape of a bootleg recording that a friend gave me years ago.  

I just ordered the set for the cuts that I don’t have and to have it all on cd.  Thanks!

mary_jo, you raised some very interesting questions in your last post.

**** can musicians devote themselves equally to the voice and to the instrument when playing and singing at the same time? And all that in their perfection? Will at some point the performance of the instrument "suffer" when the delivery gets stronger through their voice or vice versa? ****

First, let’s establish a baseline. We are only talking about singers who accompany themselves; while most singers play, at least, a little bit of piano (or guitar), some don’t at all.

I don’t think there is any one answer for all perfomers that accompany themselves since each performer has a different level of ability at each skill and a different level of ability to keep the “distraction” of one from affecting the other which is what I think your question is asking. I have no doubt that for some the answer is yes and for others it is no. However, while an interesting question in absolute terms this is not what determines the level of excellence of the self-accompanying performer’s final product. This is what I meant when I described Nina Simone’s artistry in terms of “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts”. For Simone and other performers who accompany themselves and who are at that high a level of artistry the goal is for the two skills to work together for a potentially greater whole. Technical “perfection” in any one area is not the goal. They may actually NOT WANT to fully exploit their pianistic skills in the technical sense because doing so may actually lessen the artistic impact of the whole; it may be a distraction from the singing and vise versa. I love to make pancakes for Sunday family breakfast; I make great pancakes 😋. My family’s favorite are beer batter pancakes; beer instead of milk. However, if I use really great beer which has a lot of personality the pancakes will be awful. One has to use very average beer for just the right balance.

**** For instance, should a singer like Nina, let somebody else accompanied her on the piano in order to get the perfection out of the both performances? ****

I don’t think so. The end result would be very different. Again, depends on the performer and the strength and flexibility of each skill. While I don’t think Simone is one of these, some lesser performers may actually need to accompany themselves since their instrument can be seen as a crutch or musical security blanket; they might feel naked without it. The quality of the end result depends on having complete control of both. Listen to how perfectly in sinc the “dialogue” between the voice and piano is in Simone’s case. It is akin to a conversation between identical twins or old married couples; they can finish sentences for each other. This is not say that I think she is a fantastic piano player in absolute terms. I don’t; as evidenced in part by the fact that we don’t find recordings (any?) by other artists with Simone on piano. She was the perfect piano player FOR HER music. Conversely, many great jazz piano players are not necessarily great accompanists to singers. It is a specific skill.

On the other hand there are, in fact, some singers who accompany themselves who could definitely benefit from a great accompanist who is better at it than they are themselves. Luckily, achieving a very high level of skill in any one discipline usually means that the performer has the ability to know when it is better to let someone else do the other and we don’t see this happen too often. Most really good singers actually play at least a little bit of piano; most know better than to try and accompany themselves when performing.

Perhaps my thoughts will be of some value to you in answering your questions. In your questions there are many parallels to many of the issues that all musicians deal with when perfecting their craft, regardless of genre, style and whether self-accompanying or not; there are many layers to the development of the craft.

frogman there was a few negative remarks on some of the Amazon reviews about the interplay between Sonny and Donald Cherry but this is, IMHO, is what makes this complete set so interesting. I listened to disc 1 and the first track, Oleo #1, almost 28 minutes long, is an indicator of what's to come.


I don't know if discs 2-6 were remastered in the same way but if so what a score!! 

All instruments out front and equal in the mix. Cherry's horn through the left channel and Sonny on the right. Another thing I love about the discs is the long lengths of the songs. Some jazz listeners view this negatively and make remarks like "it gets redundant" and so on. But not this disc. The jam sessions are long and complex with a solid foundation laid down by Cranshaw and Higgins. 


Sonny and Donald both stretch out on long solo's and the rythm section of Bob Cranshaw and Billy Higgins is super solid backing them up and also taking solo's. When you hear the pace Cranshaw on the bass your going to wonder whether he had blisters on his fingers because the pace is just that - "blistering"!!

From 17:30 - 20:30, Higgins plays an outstanding solo that starts slow and ends in a whirlwind giving Cranshaw his only break from the blistering pace on the bass. 


The tempo of the song slows at around 22 minutes with more cool interplay between Rollins and Cherry that continues until the end of the cut.

A solid 5 star review for disc 1

While typing my last post above I listened to the 22:24 long cut of St. Thomas through my laptop via an ARC headphone amp/DAC combo and on into my 1More open end over ear headphones and simply put it is now my favorite version of this great tune penned by Sonny Rollins himself and I've heard him do plenty of versions!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ym_a1V30w_s

Very nice description/analysis of “Oleo”, btw; thanks.

frogman that has to be the same version I just listened to on the new 6 disc set. Its the 3rd song on disc 2 which I just finished listening to (the whole disc 2). But in this set you get all the songs in their entirety and, even though the one you posted is obviously not cut short I read that any prior releases to the 2015 6 disc set cuts many songs short and does not include (not even close) all of the songs played during the nights they played.

pjw
Yes I have that Rollins box set purchased just prior to the summer. I thought I mentioned it in previous Rollins discussion(s) but may not have. It' basically all the music from which Rca's "Our Man In Jazz" 3 cuts were previously released. I like the fact there are numerous unreleased cuts from a live date, which is Sonny's preferred format. Also this was his attempt to break free of conventional chord chAnges in musical form and to me is an historic document of music.   How successful it was is open to debate. I have listened to several discs other than disc #1and sound quality is fine. 
BTW-- I think 2 cuts from original RCA release are presented here with no Editing.

Excellent comments re this Rollins set. Those three cuts that nsp refers to were released in an RCA compilation album of unrelated sessions titled “3 in Jazz” featuring various artists. On the three Rollins cuts, Bob Cranshaw was replaced by a different bassist whose name I don’t recall right now. Need to dig that album up and will get back to you.

mary jo, here is another example of pianist/singer you might find interesting.

I believe Nat "King" Cole's career began as a jazz pianist.  There is a story that a patron at a live performance "demanded" that Cole sing the lyrics to one of the Trio's songs and thus began his singing.  Then early on the Trio had a hit with "Sweet Lorraine" which was a vocal number.  However later in his career he was primarily known as a singer.  In fact toward the end of the '50s I suspect many fans knew nothing about his piano playing or jazz trio days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrdJS4ZxRbA

More Nat king Cole, its been said that this was his last jazz oriented session.

https://youtu.be/6x9IaWGDQjk

https://www.allmusic.com/album/after-midnight-mw0000198051

I like Alex's post of 9/29 and my feelings and sentiment are similar to his. I like his approach & attitude. Case in point: an artist was recently posted for 2nd time. Didn't like the music 1st tim e but gave it another try. It still did not resonate for me but I said nothing . 

frogman
I think this 6 cd set of Rollins was his only recorded attempt to go "outside" and play free jazz?

East Broadway Rundown was "free"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVO4FDqG-4A

Freddie Hubbard and John Coltrane's rythm section of Elvin Jones and Jimmy Garrison!!

Earlier Sonny Rollins with the MJQ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHX5nGzNFVI

You could here is genius even then!

Percy Heath on the bass. I never met Percy but I worked with his son Stu in construction out on the east end of Long Island. Percy lived in Montauk. I remember Stu surfcasting under the lighthouse and pulling in one Striped Bass after another, many over 40 pounds. Stu fished at that rocky point and caught fish after fish while everyone else was getting snagged on rocks!!  

Avid fishermen will tell you that it’s all about the rhythm of your cast.  Perhaps Stu inherited his Dad’s great sense of rhythm 😊

Rules for Aficionados 😇:

- The alex rule: Like grandma always said, if you don’t have something positive to say, unless specifically asked, say nothing.

- The pryso rule: There is no “best”.

- The acman rule: Write as few words as possible, but post as much music as possible.

- The mary_jo rule: Remember, sometimes “newbies” have the most insightfulness; less clutter to complicate matters.  

- ?????

It was the way Stu applied the rythm to reeling in.

The Striped Bass will stay underneath the Bluefish during a feeding frenzy. Therefore a surface lure will not get snagged but you will hook more Bluefish then Striped Bass. Stu would use a 2oz White bucktail with a white pork rind strip attached to the hook. You have to let this lure sink and then reel in slow and steady.

The problem is all the jagged rocks beneath the surface out there that you could get snagged on. Stu would cast into the same area, let  the lure sink and start reeling in and he never got snagged or "hung - up" as we call it. It was like he put a spell on his rig!!

pryso, great example of piano player/singer. No question about Nat Cole’s piano playing cred. Very highly regarded among other piano players and considered influential. And what a beautiful velvety voice! Whenever I hear his singing I can’t help remembering this story. Apologies if I’ve told this story before:

As any big city resident knows, street musicians are a fixture on the subway trains as well as streets of NYC. Some are pretty good. I frequent this one particular subway line and one of the “regulars” on this line is this crusty and very colorful older alto saxophone player who goes from subway car to subway car and plays the same tune every time: “Nature Boy”, recorded and made popular by Nat Cole in the 40’s. I had heard him play the tune at least half a dozen times and had noticed that he was changing one of the notes in the melody:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq0XJCJ1Srw

****
There was a boy
A very strange enchanted boy
They say he wandered very far, very far...
****

Each time the lyric says “far”, the corresponding note in the melody has a very distinctive sound in the harmony of the tune. It is one of the defining notes of this rather exotic sounding melody. For anyone who cares, that note is a major seventh in a minor chord; pretty unusual and is what gives the melody that interesting exotic melodic twist. Well, this guy would play that note a semitone lower; a minor seventh to give the melody a kind of bluesy sound. So, every time he would walk by while playing I would compliment his playing (wasn’t too bad) and would slip him five or ten bucks and he would go on his way. After about six or seven times of this, I had to ask. “Hey, man, sounds great, but did you know, that one note you’re playing....”. Before I had a chance to finish my sentence he says in his very gravelly voice: “Yeah, man, I know, it should be a half step higher; but I make more money when I play it that way”. Hysterical!

frogman thanks for that NYC story. I'm often in Manhattan and I never caught that guys act.


Another of my favorite tunes from Sonny Rollins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlatJOsLhPA

To be clear to anyone who missed the context of my original comment on "best".  That was to avoid a simple label of best unless you've compared all samples.  One can have a song or a version they like best, meaning among those they know.  But that is a long way from saying it is the best in existence.

Anyway, great list of rules frog. ;^)

Thanks for clarifying, pryso.  I should have been more thorough; especially since I knew just what you had said.  All in good fun, though.

(1) Fro, thank you very much for your answer. But your announcements (every once a while) that you will actually post it was funny to me in the terms of the rhythm. I liked it.

It was as if you were announcing something public – you make a speech and at crucial points there is a break time and you hear the drums, „bam“, „bam“. After the drums the speech continues. 

Instead of drums, I heard you saying, „I haven’t forgotten mary-jo“.

**

Your thoughts on the subject are very interesting to me. Especially in the following part:

////*** For instance, should a singer like Nina, let somebody else accompanied her on the piano in order to get the perfection out of the both performances? ****

I don’t think so. The end result would be very different. Again, depends on the performer and the strength and flexibility of each skill. While I don’t think Simone is one of these, some lesser performers may actually need to accompany themselves since their instrument can be seen as a crutch or musical security blanket; they might feel naked without it. The quality of the end result depends on having complete control of both. Listen to how perfectly in sinc the “dialogue” between the voice and piano is in Simone’s case. It is akin to a conversation between identical twins or old married couples; they can finish sentences for each other. This is not say that I think she is a fantastic piano player in absolute terms. I don’t; as evidenced in part by the fact that we don’t find recordings (any?) by other artists with Simone on piano. She was the perfect piano player FOR HER music. Conversely, many great jazz piano players are not necessarily great accompanists to singers. It is a specific skill.///

This surely covers all. This is the answer. One cannot say more about it.

I like the pancake part too but never tried it in such combination.

I

(2) I like Nina. Regardless of the performing (im)perfection of each of her skill, she delivers good, at least to me. She has that what people tend to say these days, X-factor (I do not know what it means but it sounds damn good.). And that’s enough for my book. Nina. <3

Nina Simone - Don’t Let Me Be Misunderstood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckv6-yhnIY&app=desktop

Thank you pryso for Nat King Cole. I was not aware (what a surprise, yes, I know) of his piano playing abilities. But did listen him singing. What a voice, man...

Nat King Cole - Smile. Video - Charlie Chaplin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rkNBH5fbMk

Nat has a smiling face so the song suits him well. : )

***
///“Yeah, man, I know, it should be a half step higher; but I make more money when I play it that way”. ///
This was indeed hysterical!

Frogman, you have excluded some of our very important household names, guess you did not want to stir the pot...

Since nobody has a reason to doubt my good intentions, I will post couple of  'descriptions' as well...


https://youtu.be/X6I_dKUYyI4

and one with famous resident sax player....

https://youtu.be/CgfZVNv6w2E

"Any similarities to actual persons or places, alive or dead, real or ficticious is merely coincidental and the product of a feverish imagination."

(3)    ///The acman rule: Write as few words as possible, but post as much music as possible.///

!! : ))) But lately something is wrong. I can't see him anywhere around after he said that he was offended. 

Acman man, if it that was not me, tell me who that was. Rok mentioned once Minions. Well, if you need one, I will apply for it. Just come back, write as few words as possible, but post as much music as possible or write as much words as possible, but post as few music as possible (like me for instance).

!!!  "Forgive me Charlie Parker wherever you are." Hahaha...! 

..."were funny to me".