Granny,
If the Clarity TC caps are too big then try the MUNDORF M-Lytic HV+ Series MLGO+ (Glue-On + 500V & 550V) 4-Pole Electrolytic Capacitors.
Parts Connexion has them. |
Grannyring, Trust me on this-- with a film cap supply you can go lower than the stock values of the replaced electrolytics-- a 50% ratio is conservative. |
Ok then I will use them! Thanks Dgarretson! |
Johnsonwu, what do you think of these Clarity TC caps in my power supply replacing the 470 uf electrolytic small caps that you sad were good. Those stock caps cost like $3 each? Surely they are nothing special?
I know you know quite a bit about electronics so I am curious what you think. |
I was told some confusion had arisen in this thread re. Parts sale of CAST630v caps.
I'm sorry to say, that having a 2 year old and a second on the way, has meant my internet time has gone down significantly....
To put the story straight. The Parts caps are genuine Duelund round CAST630v Cu. Their volume story is 100% correct. And is a huge help for our company.
In the future, if you feel you need an answer from me, always feel free to drop me a mail.
Best regards,
Frederik |
They are fantastic sounding! Thanks for confirming. |
Thanks to Grannyring the Duelund products were brought to my attention.I ordered the CAST capacitor for my speakers.Fortunately this speaker has only one cap and no resistor per speaker(lucky me). I discovered this thread a few weeks ago and have read quite a bit of it.
Volleyguy, I have to thank you for starting this, it has been fun to read and informative. Your considerable time and effort is much appreciated. Some have been critical of your method of testing/comparisons yet everyone who has tried the Duelunds confirm your results.Obviously you were hearing things accurately.I am convinced that natural materials are often superior to plastic and other man made alternatives as your experiences suggest.
I eagerly await the shipment of my CAST capacitors they will replace the standard Auricaps.Thanks again Volleyguy.
Regards, |
Also, due to orders such as the one discussed, this is what 5% of my pre CAST setup looks like:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151063279663842&set=o.209346612428600&type=1&theater |
Grannyring,
Lytics are not necessarily bad when they are used pre-regulation. I use Nichicon 400V audio grade caps in my amps for smoothing before regulation. Check mouser or digikey and see if your current caps are low ESR. If so they are good enough for pre-regulation smoothing. You will need the high capacitance to smooth out ripples and lytics are great for their size. Post regulation is a different story. Quality matters a lot more than uF. Lytic caps are inherently lossy. For bypass I try to use oil cans as long as they fit. Now Paul may have different thinking as I notice lots of lytics in the Dude. Heck the output coupling caps were not your state of the art thousand dollar cap but rather Mundorf Mcap 47uF as I recall.
|
Thanks Johnsonwu,
I am working on a TAD 60 tube amp. Paul's Dude uses an enormous about of capacitance and in his circuit sounds stunning. The coupling caps are usually Mundorf Supremes. I placed the Duelund CAST caps where the Mundorf's were and used a .47 uf value. Man did these caps sing in my Dude!
I wish I knew more about the TAD amp or could send you a scematic, but I don't have one. The TAD seems to be weak in the power supply. |
Take a picture and email it to me. |
DGarretson
If I understand what you are saying is that amp designers used high uf electrolytics caps in part because the ESR is so bad that compensation was needed in uf in size?
You say that film caps have 1/100 the Electrical Series Resistance of eletrolytics? That's huge?
Can you explain for me and others what ESR means for sound and how do designers calculate how much is needed and how does ESR fit the calculation. Meaning the reduction of uf needed with lower ESR.
I have only replaced one power supply cap and it was vintage to Jensen Electrolytic and the Jensen sounded much harder. The Jensen is quiet with no noise but I was frustrated that the sound did not improve in fact going the other way. (Jensen was much smaller)
I must say as well that cap in the power supply made a big effect in sound quality. The only tough part was I could not test by going channel to channel like coupling but by memory which of course I do not like to use. I just stopped with the power supply and am stuck as to what to do? (power supply cap wise) |
The supply caps to the output stage NEEDS to be big, as big as the tranny and rectifier diodes can handle.
A composite config of about 800V or higher tolerance is needed due to turn on spike.
Hardly anyone uses film for the output stage.
You need about 200uF for each pair of El34/6550/KT888 type tubes.
Driver and input/gain is different. Its the quality that counts. Figure 20-100uF. |
Yes, I will be using some very large can Mallory caps for the upgraded power supply in my TAD 60 amp. I plan to use four 1500uf 450vdc caps in series. I will add a choke and regulator also.
I will also replace the coupling caps with Mundorf silver in oils. Key resistors will be replaced with Mills and Roderstein. Other caps will be replaced with Obbligato Gold.
This amp was made in China with decent iron and my upgrades should make this good sounding amp really sing. Decided to go this route rather than building an amp kit. I think in the end I will get better sound for time and dollars invested.
I am learning a great deal also and perhaps after this I can take on a bigger project.
I have not tried the Mundorf silver in oils and hope they sound as good as folks suggest. |
Grannying,
Given you appreciation for Duelund products would their resistors be a good choice for your amplifier project? I understand they are much more affordable than the capacitors. Is their size an issue? You seem to be having much fun with your modifications.
Regards, |
Hi Charles, no just a cost issue as I am replacing many resistors and the total cost starts to add up. I hope to really learn a great deal with this project and in the end have a $1500 amp that sounds like $10,000. Ha!
My next amp project will be to build a killer tube amp with Duelund parts, but I have much to learn. For this project, building a new power supply and changing out virtually every cap and resistor with sold quality Mills and Mundorf parts is enough. The amp's circuit and iron are OK, but not worthy of Duelund.
I am quite intrigued with what the end result will be. One can purchase a China made amp like my TAD 60 for under $400 new in China. Add another $650 in parts and I think I could have a very nice 50 watt stereo amp. The Bez amp company in China sells amps very, very low in price. One can buy 50 OtL monoblock amps for $1300. The build quality is good, but the parts are cheap. Great amps to learn on and modify.
My TAD 60 was made by the Bez Co., but it has many upgrades over their stock $400 amp. I will have to build a nice chassis extension out of wood to fit the much bigger film and big can caps. Fun stuff! |
Grannyring,I will follow your progress with much interest,I find this educational. I can`t wait to get my Duelund CAST crossover capacitors.
Regards, |
I have a "comparison box" that allows me to place resistors or capacitors in it a listen to their sound in my system. The box is placed between my pre and amp or between my cd and pre using IC's.
This way I can listen to the part with the total signal going through it in my system. I plan to do a careful listen to resistors as this is the next area I want to learn about. Do Duelund resistors sound the best? What about Vishay Nudes etc.....I will compare.
Stay tuned. |
Charles1dad,
What value CAST caps did you order? Were you able to use the values that PCX has on sale?
I haven't placed my order yet, but plan to do so soon. |
Hello Salectric,
My cap value is 5.6 uf, one per speaker(tweeter). I got a 20% discount.Those are the only capacitors in the crossover (fortunately for me).There are no resistors in the crossover.
Regards, |
Granny ring beware that 1500uf usually means high esr.
You don't need 4 caps in series unless you have 1200v B+.
Best is just 4 470 to 560uf arranged in a square quad ie both series and parallel to yield a composite cap of 560uf 900v. |
Johnson, I am working with Paul on this and will clarify the actual arrangement of the 4 - 1500 uf caps and choke. |
Just doing some comparisons with the Jensen Copper paper tube vs. the Duelund VSF again. Duelund better bass sharper crisper less muffled even after a couple of years the difference is still very large.
I have never heard the CAST in electronics. I think I might have to try some. I did not get them before because of $$$ for small value caps. Duelund is more cost competitive in large value caps. |
Just moved the Duelund VSF and Jensen Copper Tube coupling caps to an vintage EL 84 style amp with new Jensen Electrolytic cap in the power supply. Seeing if the results are the same in different types of amps.
EL 84 amp had lacked bass definition. (nice midrange though) The comparison will be against one vintage and one Ampohm Copper Foil cap that I tested before and sounded VERY close to vintage. I think caps should be tested in different syle amps.
The difference from vintage to the Jensen's was very big in the Fisher 500c.
The hope is to improve the dynamics and bass of the EL84 stlye amp while maintaining it's qualities.
I have one EL 84 amp with a ASC caps in the power supply. I am going to have to try that again.
SS power supply amp needs some work. (going in for service) It has starting making a popping noise when turning on and after the fire a long time ago if the amp is not 100% it gets fixed! |
Here is one for you for blind test.
I hooked up the amp on test speakers before taking to the main speakers. I thought I hooked up the right channel to the Duelund and Jansen caps. There was almost no bass in the right channel compared to the very boomy bass in the left. I was not sure what was going on?
The right sounded good just no bass.
I have always cranked up the bass on the EL 84 and down the treble in the tone controls.
The first thing I did was peel off the bottom plate to see what was going on? The Duelund and Jensen were in the left channel and the boomy sounding bass was quickly corrected by taking the tone controls back to flat.
For the life of me I can not figure out Tony Gee cap review on the Ampohm Copper Foil caps? Assuming they sound the same as the rest of the family he talks about. He talks about them being more see through. Yes very light.
To me they have a total lack of bass. They sound exactly like vintage? I could not tell them from the vintage?
They are an excellent cap if one was doing a vintage amp and wanted it to sound exacty the same way.
More to follow. |
Hooked the amp back up to main speakers.
One of biggest changes of any that I did was going from vintage power supply electrolytic cap to the Jensen.
I remember being stunned at the difference.
The biggest downgrade!
More than anything I have done.
This vintage amp that sounded good now sounds terrible! I thought it would get better in time but has not even after many hours in the bedroom system.
The Jensen is coming out and the 50 year old cap is going back in! I really wish I could get something better than these 50yr old caps or even as good just for safety reasons alone.
The Jensen is MUCH smaller than vintage and very dry sounding. (shrill and harsh) |
I remember back at the start of this thread taking much flack.
I was selling a set of speakers when a guy showed up with a vintage tube amp that looked like junk to me. My first experience of a complete foil signal path amp all through the speakers. I was just shocked at how much better it sounded than my $10k pre amp and amp. (SS) So I begged him for it and he sold me the amp and I kept the speakers. (so started the thread)
The thread started with my wife listening to one speaker each of vintage foil caps vs. modern poly caps. She thought the difference was just amazing. The problem was she did not know which speaker was which and was picking the vintage caps!
What was going on I thought all new parts would be better???
Then the quest started to find better than the vintage foil caps and up the food chain I went to Mundorf then to Duelund VSF then CAST (tweeter caps)
In some cases the Duelund caps were MUCH better in some cases like the VSF in the midrange compared to vintage foil the difference was not shocking but they were consistently better. (I would rate the vintage between 11and 12 for the midrange)
I did listen to the vintage tube amp on modern speakers with a cheap poly based crossover, not good.
Now here we are again replacing a vintage power supply cap with a new Jensen electrolytic expecting improvement and getting the exact opposite!
I know some may laugh but I can not tell the Ampohm Copper foil cap from the vintage Alu foil in Mylar (polyester) I would rate the vintage coupling caps by Tony's ratings at 11+. (the vintage lack dynamics and bass of Jensen and Duelund but not tone)
Why do vintage power supply caps sound sooooooo much better? At least than the Jensen?
I feel this part might be THE most important part of all! I have thousands of $$$$ of Duelund parts and Silver wire after the $50 power supply cap and that ONE part can make it all sound like crap! |
There is a pair of Black Gate WKZ's on eBay for $1200. I tried to get Peter (Audio Note) to sell me some before. (obviously no luck)
I have never heard the Black Gates just so much about them.
I think they are my size. Scary even to look!
I had one EL 84 changed to ASC power supply caps. I am going to get that amp back out. I do remember the tone change. Lots of bass though. |
Jensen out vintage back in.
Size of vintage is twice as big. Weight is 3-5 times as heavy. |
There are some Western Electric caps for sale on eBay for $2100
Just HUGE! Looks like 100uf weighs 5 lbs?
The ad claims best in the world? (sonically)
In my cap testing for coupling and power supply I have not heard a lighter smaller cap EVER outperform a larger heavier one of the same type.
Whether it is Western Electric, Black Gate WKZ, Duelund VSF, Duelund CAST they all have one thing in common they are big and heavy. |
Makes you wonder if that extra weight and mass confer more beneficial damping. I`m sure there`re other factors involved but damping may be an under appreciated result.
Regards, |
Charles1dad
I am sure of it. The light weight Jensen sounded it's worse at high freq. they sound oddly enough what they look like light and dry. Shrill and harsh. I remember when it went in, just awful! (I was hoping for improvement through breakin no luck)
I would bet money that just like a Duelund CAST deals with the resonance even over the VSF so does the vintage electrolytic. Not through any high tech casting just liquid weight and mass.
I have heard guys mention how the poly caps sound better than any electrolytic in the power supply? If the Jensen is an indicator that would not be hard!
The ASC's that were highly rated had a liquid around the cap again weight and mass. No high tech dampening just weight to the structure.
I remember reading about how great a Leak Stereo 20 sounded (over other EL84 amps and hearing it had a paper in oil power supply. Hmmm. |
A link to a Leak Stereo 12 article.
Paper in oil power supply
http://www.44bx.com/leak/TL12_50yrs.html
Of course the amp was very expensive in the day compared to wages.
Now that the basement is done back to this power supply issue.
I was really hoping someone else would go there. If a vintage electrolytic can sound THAT much better what would a paper in oil power supply sound like?
Is that cap every bit a important as coupling caps. I think even more so! |
Ahhhh that's better! (vintage in and sounding wonderful)
Comparing the Jensen Duelund vs. the Ampohm vintage as coupling caps.
Duelund doing what they do best turning random sounds into instruments.
Three biggest improvements of all parts changed and it has been a lot!
1 Duelund CAST tweeter caps even over VSF (shocking reduction in noise)
2 Duelund woofer inductor VSF high freq noise reduction that shocked me in comparison to North Creek and the second place contender being the vintage wax paper inductor. (would still LOVE to hear a CAST inductor)
3 Vintage electrolytic over Jensen just huge and really opens the mind as to what is possible in the power supply.
All tests are being done on horn speakers and horns hate noise.
The theme is consistent and seems to never change. Make sure the part has a way of dealing with resonance or it will deal with you! |
Volleyguy1, I use those large computer grade can caps made by Mallory. I find they work very well in power supplies, Have you tried them? |
Can one even find a PIO with enough capacitance for a proper power supply? I use values from 1500uf to 3300uf. I have learned from an excellent tube amp builder that a power supply should be made with large can computer grade caps and loads of capacitance for best sound.
I am nearing the end of a tube amp build right now and am building the power supply so this topic is very interesting to me. |
Well Volleyguy you really would like the Cast inductors. No noise I can hear, excellent dynamics, tonal color, and immediacy. Put them in my 3.6s. Go for it. As for electrolytics it's too bad the Black Gates are no longer available as they have the lowest noise floor or anything I've tried . Imagine a 200 watt/ ch amp with 160,000 uF ps of these!. As an alternative I'd try the Mundorfs, Evox Rifa PEH, or Sikorels, the last of which I've never seen in the US. |
Grannyring
I think my vintage caps are Mallory but I am not sure what they share with modern Mallory caps?
I assume your amp has a SS power supply not tube rectified?
The EL 84 amps I have use 60/40uf. Your size would be out of the question.
I am certainly no power supply expert just a guy with ears.
Grannyring I am "stuck" with the Duelund VSF inductors. (but i do believe you! From CAST experience) That was part of the reason for the thread having people talk before they buy. (selling parts is great way to lose money!)
Was anything close to the Black Gates and did you try the WKZ series. They look quite big and heavy. |
My amp used 270 and 470 uf caps but I am replacing with 1500 and 3300 uf caps from Mallory. Again, replacing with more capacitance for better sound. |
Yes my power supply has a bridged rectifier as an FYI. It is a 50 watt push/pull amp using el34 or kt88 or 66's |
Grannyring
You can increase the uf on SS rectified? (unlimited) I understand you should not exceed a 50% increase on tube rectified. That is my next project the power supply in the SS rectified amp. Very much a pain in the butt to find the right parts. What is it like to find space in a new amp? The Fisher 500c is awesome for space underneath for working on lots of room for those big Duelund parts. (part of the reason I choose vintage to test on was space and point to point plus low entry price because when I am done I will own these amps no matter what) Space on top for power supply another story. On one of the EL 84's I had a deck made of steel to house the ASC caps. (huge caps!) I have get that amp out again as the poly caps were not shrill like the Jensen. A lot of deep bass is what I remember but a poly tone.
Is it a general rule of thumb but the sought after output tubes seem to always be big? I like the sound of the EH 7591A in the Fisher bigger than the original.
I can not even say for sure the effect of the power supply cap (change) is the same in SS rectified although I am sure it is. Quiet is quiet.
I have a gut feeling that a Duelund CAST is the ultimate power supply cap. DEAD quiet if you could afford it!
I am curious of Dgarretson's Clarity caps in the power supply. If the Jensen is a typical electrolytic now then they have no place in Audio (except space) and I can see why people will go to poly in the power supply. |
Space is certainly an issue. I am having an expansion chassis being made of wood that expands the depth of my chassis by 8 inches. This is how I can fit all these big can Mallory caps. |
I try to replace cap in the teewter of my Advantgarde Duo 2.0 (currently having mundorf). Please advise me what model of Deulund cap should i buy. |
the standard duo uses 2 x 2,2 uF mundorf supreme caps. I replaced the 3,3 uF silver/gold mundorfs in my omega dup with teflon v-caps. the improvements are dramatic. the tweeter cap has a huge influence on the sound and I'd like to suggest to buy the best duelund cap you can afford |
I have placed an order in for a Duelund CAST cap (might up that to two) and will likely get at least 3 more if they sound the way I expect. They are due in on Wednesday from Denmark. Then they will be shipped to me. Maybe end of next week? I live only 1 hour from Partsconnexion.
Houstonreef
It depends on what you like a bit. The CAST are ultra low noise which you should like in horns. I have compared in the Klipsch two in series 2uf tweeter caps of 2 Mundorf Supreme a Silver in Oil and Duelund VSF and Duelund CAST. The CAST when I first put them in I thought I wired something up wrong that is right after the VSF's! I actually put my ear up to the tweeter to hear if it was even working! I tried all combinations and liked a CAST followed by a VSF second choice was two CAST's in series. (just soooo quiet) I could not stand two VSF's as they were FAR too noisy! Also a loss of dynamics with all the resonance.
If I was getting just one cap it would be CAST clearly. I can assure you the difference is something you can easily hear.
I had tried the CAST before Tony Gee had and thought they should be rated 17 (by his numbers) then if the VSF was 12.5. He "only" gives the CAST a 14 out of 10?
I will be able to give another reassessment maybe by the end of next week at least in electronics. CAST vs. VSF in electronics is the coming up comparison. I am curious? VSF is my current cap best over Jensen Copper Paper Tube. I just could not justify CAST till now for small value caps. |
Thanks Duomike and Volleyguy1 for your advice.
Volleyguy1: As you explained in the above answer is the combination of one Cast and ona VFS because i need two of them in a tweeter. Do they need to be in order? because i never open the back cover of the tweeter before.
Duomike: Do you have procedure/trick to open the back cover (especially the binding post)? |
Houstonreef,
just open the 2 screws to remove the back cover. Then remove the internal cable (clip on connectors). The xo circuit board is screwed into the 4 binding posts. very easy to remove. believe the duelunds are too big and won't fit the board so you will have to think about where to put them.
when opening the speakers I'd like to suggest you solder all internal connections with decent silver solder. Nice improvement for no money at all.
believe it is not a good idea to parallel 2 different caps |
It is just my crossovers that were in series.
I already owned the VSF's which worked out nicely meaning not more money for CAST which are costly.
When I did the basement here the book I used for advice (on doing up the room) was the sales distributor for Avantgarde in the U.S. Jim Smith.
Some helpful tips. I did put down a wood sub floor. I will have to post some pics soon.
Love to hear the Trio's. What is the cap for you mid range horn? |
I am excited about the CAST for electronics coming.
We will see if my gut is right but I think CAST will be very good. In the Clarity White paper I think it was 30%? of people who preferred high resonance capacitors. I know more preferred low resonance but it was not 100% for low resonance.
Houstonreef asked which Duelund and that is not always clear. What is clear is CAST are mechanically superior BY FAR in controlling resonance over VSF.
I can not imagine (at this point) why anyone would want added resonance in the electronics? Resonance favors the frequency of sound the capacitor resonates at and reduces other frequencies bass reduction can be huge. The resonance is also a loss of dynamics. Resonance can give a feel of more "air" as that is the freq resonance occurs. My "guess" is if one wanted to "add" resonance I think you may want it in certain caps in the crossover likely midrange and not in electronics. (this is if at all!)
In the case with Duelund the harmonic structure gets richer every time I put there parts in. Your brain goes that random sound is a this or that.
In my final tests setting the caps in the amp. The test caps will be (of which I have two of each)
Jensen Copper Paper Tube
Vintage ERO foil in polyester
Ampohm Copper foil in oil
Duelund VSF
Duelund CAST (coming)
Will it be two CAST's or some combination? First test is CAST vs. VSF (my current reference)
Will I be able to get my in series Duelund tweeter inductor in the speaker. The only Duelund part that did not improve sound overall. The change in DCR did not work. |
I see the Duelund caps are in from Denmark at Partsconnexion.
It should not be long before they are here maybe by the weekend?
In the EL 84 amp that I put in the Jensen and Duelund VSF in the one side to compare vs. CAST when they get here it is just shocking how much more bass there is. I always thought the amp was just anemic in that department. |
